An Editor to Edit players above 100/20 rating?

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An Editor to Edit players above 100/20 rating?

Post by TurboJ » Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:42 pm

I am wondering why my created player's determination keeps dropping. Drops by one each year. Was 20 at 16 y/o, now after 2.5 years it's already dropped to 17 :-k

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An Editor to Edit players above 100/20 rating?

Post by TurboJ » Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:03 am

One more year and one more point lost in determination. That's now 4 points reduction in 3 years. CA/PA 200. And determination is not supposed to change? I wonder if it will be at 1 once he's 38 ](*,)

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An Editor to Edit players above 100/20 rating?

Post by nino33 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:05 am

The testing I did did not find Determination to be unchanging. Having said that, the testing I did was also looking at typical players and normal development (not players with higher than normal Attributes/CA for their age)

Don't forget the average expected Attribute for a 190-200 CA is 16 so having a 20 in Determination would require a below average value somewhere else. And as always the Player Role (and Key/Essential/Non-Essential/Irrelevant Attributes) plays a significant role in Attribute distribution and development

Did you edit the player to give him a 200 CA? Or did the player reach it naturally? If you're editing CA or Attributes in a saved game you may be getting atypical results


P.S. IIRC Determination is just a regular, normal Attribute in all Player Roles & I suspect this makes it harder to keep it at a higher than average Attribute value (and with dozens of other Attributes playing a part, and Player Role along with age and experience/playing time, it's hard to know exactly what affected what and why)

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An Editor to Edit players above 100/20 rating?

Post by TurboJ » Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:56 am

First of all, thank you sincerely for helping me out. As you can probably guess, I'm very involved in this project now and it's a huge thing to have someone knowledgeable commenting!
nino33 wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:05 am
The testing I did did not find Determination to be unchanging. Having said that, the testing I did was also looking at typical players and normal development (not players with higher than normal Attributes/CA for their age)
Well I always though the 'determination does not change' was not true! Because I saw it change on so many players during all my time with EHM1. Sure it is rare, but it does change! Now I wonder how crucial this attribute actually is. I'm sure it can be compensated by other stuff, such as work rate and consistency. Any thoughts on that?
Don't forget the average expected Attribute for a 190-200 CA is 16 so having a 20 in Determination would require a below average value somewhere else. And as always the Player Role (and Key/Essential/Non-Essential/Irrelevant Attributes) plays a significant role in Attribute distribution and development
I know this is how things are but I don't know how this works in practice. Most importantly I don't know how the CA and various attributes should be assigned to a young prospect. I have a feeling that I gave this kid too high attributes at 16 y/o and that's causing the determination to drop now. I'm seeing growth, OTOH, on areas I did not want to grow.

*The player in question is a winger playmaker /finesse. Off/Def roles are 20/13. I set his CA/PA to be 172/200 at the start of his draft year. I did this by editing the starting database only, no savegames. I wanted this player to have certain 'personality' and had his checking, hitting, bravery and strength all be quite low. I know these are not relevant atts for this player role, but yet these atts are all growing while determination is dropping (!). Why would it drop determination and have some irrelevant attributes grow at the same time?

I'm looking at creating another 'test player' when I'm finished with this career so I would really like to know how to create a prospect correctly. For example, looking at a 200 PA player again, what would be a reasonable CA at the age 16/17?

Also, do you know if physical size / strength play a role in the "attribute quota"? I'm playing with the idea of a pure skill player who has zero physical aspect; might I get better overall offensive skills developed if the player was tiny and timid?

And, does it have a 'penalty' to other attributes if off/def role is set to 20/20 ? I'm not giving anyone 20/20, just wondering if that would hurt some other attributes because of the importance of player role atts...
Did you edit the player to give him a 200 CA? Or did the player reach it naturally? If you're editing CA or Attributes in a saved game you may be getting atypical results
Naturally. I haven't touched the savegames in any way.
P.S. IIRC Determination is just a regular, normal Attribute in all Player Roles & I suspect this makes it harder to keep it at a higher than average Attribute value (and with dozens of other Attributes playing a part, and Player Role along with age and experience/playing time, it's hard to know exactly what affected what and why)
One thing I have noticed quite clearly in this career game that even with just 4 years of data, I can tell that visible attributes (even technical ones) can grow noticeably after the player has reached his PA. This is interesting because it makes the whole PA thing somewhat 'fuzzy' in that it doesn't seem to be an exact number at all. We all know things like checking and positioning for defensemen and faceoffs for forwards continue to grow far past the reaching point of PA so I fully understand things are difficult to analyze accurately.

But once again, many thanks for all your help!

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An Editor to Edit players above 100/20 rating?

Post by nino33 » Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:11 pm

TurboJ wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:56 am
Well I always though the 'determination does not change' was not true! Because I saw it change on so many players during all my time with EHM1. Sure it is rare, but it does change! Now I wonder how crucial this attribute actually is. I'm sure it can be compensated by other stuff, such as work rate and consistency. Any thoughts on that?
Consistency is significant and makes a big difference, after that Attributes that are lower than the ideal can happen and be compensated to some extent by others (though I've always highly valued Work Rate myself, and valued Determination too). Effective use of Tactics can play a significant part too.



TurboJ wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:56 am
*The player in question is a winger playmaker /finesse. Off/Def roles are 20/13. I set his CA/PA to be 172/200 at the start of his draft year. I did this by editing the starting database only, no savegames. I wanted this player to have certain 'personality' and had his checking, hitting, bravery and strength all be quite low. I know these are not relevant atts for this player role, but yet these atts are all growing while determination is dropping (!). Why would it drop determination and have some irrelevant attributes grow at the same time?
Looking at the "Forward Playmaker Finesse Player Role" Checking is a Normal/Regular Attribute, and Hitting and Bravery are Non-Essential (that is not the same as Irrelevant)

There's a difference between the hockey skills Attributes (the Physical Attributes and the Technical Attributes as shown in the Editor) & the Mental Attributes. Both Physical and Technical Attributes connect more to CA development. Age plays a part too, like Physical Atts (like skating) developing in later teen years, and Mental Attributes typically developing later



TurboJ wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:56 am
I'm looking at creating another 'test player' when I'm finished with this career so I would really like to know how to create a prospect correctly. For example, looking at a 200 PA player again, what would be a reasonable CA at the age 16/17?
I started my 14 year old Gretzky/Lemieux players at a 100 CA. IIRC McDavid in his rookie year was given a CA around 150. Most players age 16-17 will have a CA below 100

For some examples/guidelines you could use the EHM Assistant to look at the data ingame for players age 16-17. User ImActuallyAnOtter (creator of the Prospect Generator) may know more than anyone about this subject, but I've never seen them post any details on editing. The ECK database uses this tool, so you could start a game and sim a bunch of years in advance (to give the prospect generator time to work) and then look at the database player data for age 16-17 (my understanding is the prospect generator gives starting players better Attribute values for the different Player Roles)

P.S. I just took a look at the 2018-19 ECK database, and here's some example players age 17
  • J. Hughes has a 150 CA, and of the Technical-Physical-Mental Attributes he has one 17 rated Attribute (Creativity/Vision), and ten 16 rated Attributes; he also has eight Attributes rated below a 10
  • Kakko has a 130 CA, and of the Technical-Physical-Mental Attributes he has one 16 rated Attribute (Acceleration), and seven 15 rated Attributes he also has six Attributes rated below a 10
  • K.Dach has an 80 CA, and of the Technical-Physical-Mental Attributes he has five rated at 15, and seven rated at 14; he also has five Attributes rated below a 10

Also, you might find the testing I did on forwards last summer helpful. It gives average Attribute values for all of the Attributes (looked at different Player Roles, at 6 different CA ranges) https://www.ehmtheblueline.com/forums/v ... 6&start=50




TurboJ wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:56 am
One thing I have noticed quite clearly in this career game that even with just 4 years of data, I can tell that visible attributes (even technical ones) can grow noticeably after the player has reached his PA. This is interesting because it makes the whole PA thing somewhat 'fuzzy' in that it doesn't seem to be an exact number at all.
I never saw this in testing I did (I do recall seeing Attribute growth sometimes after CA and PA matched, but I don't recall it being significant). In later years player Attributes can go up and down without an apparent direct connection to CA growth/regress
TurboJ wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:56 am
We all know things like checking and positioning for defensemen and faceoffs for forwards continue to grow far past the reaching point of PA so I fully understand things are difficult to analyze accurately.
I don't know what you mean by "far past the reaching point of PA"

Attribute values don't have a limitation because of either CA or PA.
In EHM07 many Attribute values connected directly to CA, and there were specific formulas/limitations...this is not the case with the updated EHM.

Things like Positioning and Checking for defensemen are often Key or Essential Attributes, and so they're expected to be higher rated than the "average Attribute value by CA/PA" - for example, a 150 CA/PA player (expected average Attribute 13) could have 18-20 in some Attributes. A a 160-170 CA/PA player (expected average Attribute 14) could have 18-20 in some Attributes.

There's no hard Attribute limitation based on CA/PA (in fact, it's a complaint of mine that higher CA/PA players still to often get to many Attribute values of 18-20.....I will say in EHM07 the "superplayers" were far more prevalent; the Player Role system is an improvement). This is explained with further details in the "Player Roles - Key/Essential/Non-Essential/Irrelevant Atts" thread https://www.ehmtheblueline.com/forums/v ... 10&t=16777



TurboJ wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:56 am
And, does it have a 'penalty' to other attributes if off/def role is set to 20/20 ? I'm not giving anyone 20/20, just wondering if that would hurt some other attributes because of the importance of player role atts...
AFAIK there's no penalty; IIRC Bobby Orr in my 1974 database has 20/20 for Offensive/Defensive Role

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An Editor to Edit players above 100/20 rating?

Post by TurboJ » Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:11 am

Many thanks for such an in-depth reply! Much appreciated.
nino33 wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:11 pm
I never saw this in testing I did (I do recall seeing Attribute growth sometimes after CA and PA matched, but I don't recall it being significant). In later years player Attributes can go up and down without an apparent direct connection to CA growth/regress
This is the thing; when I follow players' careers and their development I don't quite get the connection between CA and attributes since it seems either a small or a much more noticeable change in attributes may show the same change in CA. From what I hear said of the earlier game versions I agree that the player role system and the less directly limited attributes related to CA are a good thing in EHM1. It just feels difficult to grasp the system and how it all actually works in practice. I guess I could ask what the meaning of CA/PA is if the attributes can still be lower or higher than indicated by those. I think the roles work well and I think this system allows for a nice wide variety of different player types being created; I just don't know how to correctly utilize all this when creating/editing players.
I don't know what you mean by "far past the reaching point of PA"
For example a C could have reached his PA at the age of 22 but he can still have a further 5-6 points of growth in faceoff skill, also a quite noticeable hike in anticipation and perhaps to a lesser degree in positioning. For defensemen things like checking, positioning and anticipation can grow quite a lot after player has already reached PA. And so on. I don't think this is a bad system at all, I like the fact that the game makes an effort to simulate 'professional experience' and that it will improve the player's overall performance. I just wish I understood this system better.

One reason I want to dig into this stuff is because I'd like to have a database where generational players are truly rare special and the 'usual' stars are not close to their overall skill level. In all I think there should be greater diversity of average skill, in other words CA/PA of players. I know it's a lot of work to achieve this but it would be interesting to see that. It would also make the really big money player contracts actually worthwile from a performance standpoint.
Attribute values don't have a limitation because of either CA or PA.
In EHM07 many Attribute values connected directly to CA, and there were specific formulas/limitations...this is not the case with the updated EHM.
Thanks for clearing that up. It's still strange though; I could not pin-point what could have caused my first created player to drop his determination by four points in about three years (I was trying to keep in mind the expected value of 16 and I thought his attributes weren't any crazier than those of a Crosby type). At the same time my new experiment is strange in that a star D-man (offensive finesse) doesn't seem to develop his defensive side at all. I know the relevant skills are not prioritized with this player role but at the same time the winger/finesse guy did develop many skills that were non-essential. Feels just weird, and also how the one player reached his 200 PA in three seasons while the D-man is still at 172 of 200 after three seasons...
AFAIK there's no penalty; IIRC Bobby Orr in my 1974 database has 20/20 for Offensive/Defensive Role
This is OT but I really like your idea of a database there - would be thrilling to have legendary players such as Orr, Lemieux etc. to play with. May I ask if that database is already playable and how I might go about starting a game on it if it is already playable?

Thanks again!

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An Editor to Edit players above 100/20 rating?

Post by nino33 » Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:30 pm

nino33 wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:11 pm
I don't know what you mean by "far past the reaching point of PA"
TurboJ wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:11 am
For example a C could have reached his PA at the age of 22 but he can still have a further 5-6 points of growth in faceoff skill, also a quite noticeable hike in anticipation and perhaps to a lesser degree in positioning. For defensemen things like checking, positioning and anticipation can grow quite a lot after player has already reached PA. And so on.
Ah, I get it now :thup:

I've been aware of for awhile that Attribute development can continue after CA/PA match, but I've not looked for patterns/details or averages in regards to what you're talking about specifically. I've long been saying that Attribute development is not just connected to CA growth, that age and level of competition/performance (and maybe/likely other factors) play a part too

Having your CA and PA match at age 22 is atypical. For sure not all players develop the same (there's not a single method of development that's applied to all players)


TurboJ wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:11 am
I don't think this is a bad system at all, I like the fact that the game makes an effort to simulate 'professional experience' and that it will improve the player's overall performance. I just wish I understood this system better.
Alas there's no manual explaining exactly how everything works, and because of this & because there's so many moving parts it's easy to attribute something occurring to something else and think you're correct but maybe you're not.

I too desire to understand how things work! My best recommendation for help in doing so is the Data Editing Forum thread on this site.

When I discovered EHM and first started editing back in 2010, I read everything I could and took pages of notes & made wall charts (that I still use), and since then I've repeatedly done lots of actual testing and compiling results to have empirical evidence to rely upon, and I got to know the developer (Riz) a little bit and got answers and direction from him sometimes, and learned from what others shared...and pretty much all of this is somewhere in the Data Editing Forum!





P.S. If you wanted to look into things further (to gain more understanding, look for patterns, etc), data I've compiled previously would I think be helpful. See the "EHM:EA Attribute testing" thread, my September 20, 2016 post https://www.ehmtheblueline.com/forums/v ... 4&start=25

The spreadsheets referenced, that you can download, show the development of every Attribute for over 300 players (starting age 13-28) over 12 years

Also, in the same thread, take a look at the posts from September 1, 2015 for further related thoughts/information

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An Editor to Edit players above 100/20 rating?

Post by nino33 » Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:52 pm

TurboJ wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:11 am
This is OT but I really like your idea of a database there - would be thrilling to have legendary players such as Orr, Lemieux etc. to play with. May I ask if that database is already playable and how I might go about
I created it for a previous version of EHM (the 74 DB was released back in 2012). Since the release of the new EHM (on Steam) in 2015 I've been working on-and-off on an updated version of the 74 DB but it's not done yet (maybe by the end of the year?).

P.S. Wikipedia has an explanation of the different versions of EHM over the last 20 years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastside_Hockey_Manager

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An Editor to Edit players above 100/20 rating?

Post by nino33 » Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:43 pm

TurboJ wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:11 am
One reason I want to dig into this stuff is because I'd like to have a database where generational players are truly rare special and the 'usual' stars are not close to their overall skill level. In all I think there should be greater diversity of average skill, in other words CA/PA of players. I know it's a lot of work to achieve this but it would be interesting to see that. It would also make the really big money player contracts actually worthwile from a performance standpoint.
I think you'd need to have your generational players at the top, a significant gap between generational and stars with few to no players in this gap (modern databases have dozens of players here), and a much lower average NHL CA than modern databases use, and most players close to average and a significant number below the average.

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