NHL Prospects researcher(s) wanted.

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Lidas
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NHL Prospects researcher(s) wanted.

Post by Lidas » Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:03 am

I intended to do this with myself, but due to the huge amount of work I have done and need to do, I thought I'd "outsource" it instead.

I feel that many young NHL players are not very well rated, and I need help to re-rate them. CA should be OK for most players - I'm currently working on NCAA, but in many cases PA is quite off, and the attributes are mostly randomized.

What I need is a researcher (or a team of researchers) who can - based on http://www.hockeysfuture.com/ go through all the NHL teams and their listed prospects.

(Top prospects and other notables on http://www.hockeysfuture.com/teams/detroit_red_wings)

I'll give some more guidelines later, once the researcher(s) is decided.

Any takers?

Teams taken so far:
Anaheim (stone169) - Done
Atlanta (bruins72) - Done
Boston (bruins72) - Done
Buffalo (bruins72) - Done
Calgary (stone169) - Done
Carolina (selne) - Done
Chicago (stone169) - Done
Colorado (empach) - Done
Columbus (bruins72) - Done
Dallas - (Sobri)
Detroit (Lidas) - Done
Edmonton - (papegojbro) - Done
Florida (bruins72) - Done
Los Angeles (bruins72) - Done
Minnesota (MKoivuFan)
Montreal (Starcrasher) - Done
Nashville (bruins72) - Done
New Jersey (stone169) - Done
NY Islanders (empach) - Done
NY Rangers (papegojbro) - Done
Ottawa (stone169) - Done
Philadelphia (stone169) - Done
Phoenix (stone169) - Done
Pittsburgh - (papegojbro) - Done
San Jose - (papegojbro)
St. Louis (bruins72) - Done
Tampa Bay (empach) - Done
Toronto (02m3smg)
Vancouver (Canuckk) - Done
Washington (McQwak) - Done
Last edited by Lidas on Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:16 pm, edited 21 times in total.

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Post by bruins72 » Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:33 pm

I wonder if some sort of chart could be made up to show how the Hockey's Future ratings correlate with EHM's PA. If we do that, I could add a formula to your research sheets that would convert the HF number into a PA.

For example... a 9A (and maybe even a 9B) would be a -9 PA.

Or are you looking to assign an exact number to each player's PA and taking all of the randomness out of it?

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Post by 02m3smg » Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:45 pm

I can do the Leafs. I follow their prospects and currently watching the rookie tournament (leafs, sens, bruins & pens). I don't necessarily agree with HF.com on some but it's a good baseline.

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Post by getzlaf15 » Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:55 pm

I follow prospects quite closely. And i've made a few changes to my own DB regarding them. I'll certainly help out if i'm needed. Let me know. :thup:

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Post by Lidas » Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:12 am

bruins72 wrote:I wonder if some sort of chart could be made up to show how the Hockey's Future ratings correlate with EHM's PA. If we do that, I could add a formula to your research sheets that would convert the HF number into a PA.

For example... a 9A (and maybe even a 9B) would be a -9 PA.

Or are you looking to assign an exact number to each player's PA and taking all of the randomness out of it?
I'm still gonna use random PA's, but not the -11 - -15 ones. I will only use those for players too young to be drafted.

As for hockeysfuture's ratings, I was thinking of keeping it simple and just round up the numbers, i.e. 8.5 and 9 becomes -9. 7.5 and 8 becomes -8, and ignoring the letters. If you have any better suggestions I'm all ears.

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Post by Lidas » Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:13 am

02m3smg wrote:I can do the Leafs. I follow their prospects and currently watching the rookie tournament (leafs, sens, bruins & pens). I don't necessarily agree with HF.com on some but it's a good baseline.
Sounds good!

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Post by Lidas » Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:13 am

getzlaf15 wrote:I follow prospects quite closely. And i've made a few changes to my own DB regarding them. I'll certainly help out if i'm needed. Let me know. :thup:
Of course you're needed!

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Post by bruins72 » Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:09 pm

Lidas wrote:
bruins72 wrote:I wonder if some sort of chart could be made up to show how the Hockey's Future ratings correlate with EHM's PA. If we do that, I could add a formula to your research sheets that would convert the HF number into a PA.

For example... a 9A (and maybe even a 9B) would be a -9 PA.

Or are you looking to assign an exact number to each player's PA and taking all of the randomness out of it?
I'm still gonna use random PA's, but not the -11 - -15 ones. I will only use those for players too young to be drafted.

As for hockeysfuture's ratings, I was thinking of keeping it simple and just round up the numbers, i.e. 8.5 and 9 becomes -9. 7.5 and 8 becomes -8, and ignoring the letters. If you have any better suggestions I'm all ears.
That makes sense. If it makes things any easier for anyone, I could add a formula to your research sheet but it almost sounds straight-forward enough to not really need a formula. Let me know if you do want any help with formulas or whatever.

I'm going to attempt to research the Bruins prospects. I read about the prospects online and I know generally what types of players they're supposed to be. I can try to fill in the starting attributes for these guys if you'd like. I've got a good amount of it done already (I was working on it yesterday). I was also thinking about maybe doing something with some of the Bruins younger players that HF doesn't consider prospects anymore, unless you've already done them. I know on the old version of the DB, players like Lucic, Sobotka, and Krejci weren't quite right.

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Post by RomaGoth » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:51 pm

I can help out with the Red Wings for sure, and maybe some others if you need me to. Only thing is, I am confused about how to go about this. Would I have to create these new players/prospects from scratch, or just aging the current ones another year? Also, there is no way to assign rights to a player in the editor, is that going to be updated so we can do that with the prospects?

As always, really appreciate your hard work Lidas!!!!

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Post by Lidas » Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:47 pm

RomaGoth wrote:I can help out with the Red Wings for sure, and maybe some others if you need me to. Only thing is, I am confused about how to go about this. Would I have to create these new players/prospects from scratch, or just aging the current ones another year? Also, there is no way to assign rights to a player in the editor, is that going to be updated so we can do that with the prospects?

As always, really appreciate your hard work Lidas!!!!
I did Red Wings yesterday, but feel free to take any other team. Bruins is also already done, and 02m3smg is doing the Maple Leafs, but the rest is available.

There is no need to create new players or add rights (unless they are missing. I updated all rights according to the data on their official homepages) - I have done that for all teams already.

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Post by RomaGoth » Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:25 am

Lidas wrote:
RomaGoth wrote:I can help out with the Red Wings for sure, and maybe some others if you need me to. Only thing is, I am confused about how to go about this. Would I have to create these new players/prospects from scratch, or just aging the current ones another year? Also, there is no way to assign rights to a player in the editor, is that going to be updated so we can do that with the prospects?

As always, really appreciate your hard work Lidas!!!!
I did Red Wings yesterday, but feel free to take any other team. Bruins is also already done, and 02m3smg is doing the Maple Leafs, but the rest is available.

There is no need to create new players or add rights (unless they are missing. I updated all rights according to the data on their official homepages) - I have done that for all teams already.
So am I just aging the players one more year in the database and updating attributes/potential ability?

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Post by bruins72 » Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:39 pm

Lidas does all of the editing in the database. What you would be doing is taking the research sheet and fixing things like the player's CA and PA. Then by looking at the "talent analysis" parts of the players' profiles at Hockey's Future, you can fill in any stats left randomized. For example, say you've got a guy that's known for playing physical and fighting. Well if the database currently had his hitting set to zero (meaning it's randomly generated when you start a new game) or maybe set with an actual number but much lower than it should be, then you'd give it a new figure.

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Post by MKoivuFan » Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:51 pm

I can give the Minnesota Wild prospects a try... So .5 and 1 numbers just get moved up.... Also if thats how we are basing the PA off of how would we determine the CA then?

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Post by bruins72 » Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:54 pm

Yup. Based on what Lidas was saying above (and that's how I did the Bruins prospects), if the HF grade was 7.5C, you'd give the prospect a -8 PA.

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Post by MKoivuFan » Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:55 pm

bruins72 wrote:Yup. Based on what Lidas was saying above (and that's how I did the Bruins prospects), if the HF grade was 7.5C, you'd give the prospect a -8 PA.
Thats fine i can do up a Database spreed sheet and then send it to Lidas then... If thats kewl the only thing is again how do we determine what the CA is from HockeyFuture?

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Post by MKoivuFan » Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:18 pm

also another question... Up to what draft can we enter the prospects in with the age change? what 07 draft

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Post by RomaGoth » Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:34 pm

bruins72 wrote:Lidas does all of the editing in the database. What you would be doing is taking the research sheet and fixing things like the player's CA and PA. Then by looking at the "talent analysis" parts of the players' profiles at Hockey's Future, you can fill in any stats left randomized. For example, say you've got a guy that's known for playing physical and fighting. Well if the database currently had his hitting set to zero (meaning it's randomly generated when you start a new game) or maybe set with an actual number but much lower than it should be, then you'd give it a new figure.
Ok, so where do I get the research sheet from, and am I only using players from Hockey's Future?

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Post by bruins72 » Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:35 pm

We need to check with Lidas on this stuff.

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Post by Lidas » Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:45 pm

RomaGoth wrote:
bruins72 wrote:Lidas does all of the editing in the database. What you would be doing is taking the research sheet and fixing things like the player's CA and PA. Then by looking at the "talent analysis" parts of the players' profiles at Hockey's Future, you can fill in any stats left randomized. For example, say you've got a guy that's known for playing physical and fighting. Well if the database currently had his hitting set to zero (meaning it's randomly generated when you start a new game) or maybe set with an actual number but much lower than it should be, then you'd give it a new figure.
Ok, so where do I get the research sheet from, and am I only using players from Hockey's Future?
You dont really need to care about CA unless the player is playing in a league I havent been covered in the CA-research (most interesting leagues). If possible, try to cover all players on HF. You can also include other players if you feel they need to be changed.

You can find the Shaddsheet and other useful sheets in my
RESEARCH SHEET.

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Post by bruins72 » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:02 pm

If you guys want an example of what I gave Lidas for my Bruins prospects research, you can download my research data...

http://cid-fb7413398c44e509.skydrive.li ... search.xls

That should show you what I did. When I was doing this, I had the spreadsheet open, as well as the Pre-Game Editor and Firefox. In Firefox, I had one tab open on Hockey's Future (http://www.hockeysfuture.com/ and then go to whatever team you're doing), another tab open to http://www.thebreakaway.net/forums/show ... php?t=4539 , one open to http://www.hockeydb.com/, one to http://www.nhl.com/ice/playersearch.htm ... |PLY|Plyrs , and then another that I would use to search for a specific team if I needed additional info. I would start entering player info onto the Player Changes tab of Lidas' Research Sheet. I'd take the vital info from the Hockey's Future page for that player. Then (even though Lidas says you don't have to do CA) I'd figure out his CA using the General Settings and CA tabs of the Research Sheet. Hockey DB is good for stats but they don't include +/- in their stats. So I'd look at either NHL.com (if they're signed by the team) or maybe the team they played for last season. Then once I got the CA, I'd do the PA based upon what Lidas said earlier in their thread. After that I'd enter all of the data on the Player Changes tab of the Research Sheet. I'd take the info from what the Pre-Game Editor already had on the player. Then I'd adjust things that look wrong based on what the Talent Analysis at Hockey's Future said or my own knowledge of the player. If certain attributes were set to zero (which leaves them random), I would fill them in based on those same sources (HF and personal knowledge). A good basis for what kind of numbers to use for their attributes is the chart at the bottom of that Breakaway.net link. It has the Average, Minimum, and Maximum attributes based on CA. You can use it as a guideline.

Anyhow... that's what I did. I hope it helps anyone that is looking to help out Lidas with research. The more team's prospects we get done, the better the DB will be!

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Post by MKoivuFan » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:09 pm

bruins72 wrote:If you guys want an example of what I gave Lidas for my Bruins prospects research, you can download my research data...

http://cid-fb7413398c44e509.skydrive.li ... search.xls

That should show you what I did. When I was doing this, I had the spreadsheet open, as well as the Pre-Game Editor and Firefox. In Firefox, I had one tab open on Hockey's Future (http://www.hockeysfuture.com/ and then go to whatever team you're doing), another tab open to http://www.thebreakaway.net/forums/show ... php?t=4539 , one open to http://www.hockeydb.com/, one to http://www.nhl.com/ice/playersearch.htm ... |PLY|Plyrs , and then another that I would use to search for a specific team if I needed additional info. I would start entering player info onto the Player Changes tab of Lidas' Research Sheet. I'd take the vital info from the Hockey's Future page for that player. Then (even though Lidas says you don't have to do CA) I'd figure out his CA using the General Settings and CA tabs of the Research Sheet. Hockey DB is good for stats but they don't include +/- in their stats. So I'd look at either NHL.com (if they're signed by the team) or maybe the team they played for last season. Then once I got the CA, I'd do the PA based upon what Lidas said earlier in their thread. After that I'd enter all of the data on the Player Changes tab of the Research Sheet. I'd take the info from what the Pre-Game Editor already had on the player. Then I'd adjust things that look wrong based on what the Talent Analysis at Hockey's Future said or my own knowledge of the player. If certain attributes were set to zero (which leaves them random), I would fill them in based on those same sources (HF and personal knowledge). A good basis for what kind of numbers to use for their attributes is the chart at the bottom of that Breakaway.net link. It has the Average, Minimum, and Maximum attributes based on CA. You can use it as a guideline.

Anyhow... that's what I did. I hope it helps anyone that is looking to help out Lidas with research. The more team's prospects we get done, the better the DB will be!
Thanks Bruins72...

I dont mind doing the prospects, NHL, AHL players for the wild... the only thing i donno about is the PA and CA for the staff or what the attributes would be because that stuff isnt listed.... As well another thing i donno about is the Offense and Defense numbers in the editor under where u pick which positions so i guess just leave it at random?

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Post by bruins72 » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:15 pm

As this thread is titled... "NHL Prospects researchers wanted", I think we should just stick with the prospects for whatever teams we choose. We're supposed to be going off at least the top 20 prospects for the team on Hockey's Future so it stays consistent. I think a lot of that other stuff that you mentioned has already been handled.

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Post by MKoivuFan » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:44 pm

bruins72 wrote:If you guys want an example of what I gave Lidas for my Bruins prospects research, you can download my research data...

http://cid-fb7413398c44e509.skydrive.li ... search.xls

That should show you what I did. When I was doing this, I had the spreadsheet open, as well as the Pre-Game Editor and Firefox. In Firefox, I had one tab open on Hockey's Future (http://www.hockeysfuture.com/ and then go to whatever team you're doing), another tab open to http://www.thebreakaway.net/forums/show ... php?t=4539 , one open to http://www.hockeydb.com/, one to http://www.nhl.com/ice/playersearch.htm ... |PLY|Plyrs , and then another that I would use to search for a specific team if I needed additional info. I would start entering player info onto the Player Changes tab of Lidas' Research Sheet. I'd take the vital info from the Hockey's Future page for that player. Then (even though Lidas says you don't have to do CA) I'd figure out his CA using the General Settings and CA tabs of the Research Sheet. Hockey DB is good for stats but they don't include +/- in their stats. So I'd look at either NHL.com (if they're signed by the team) or maybe the team they played for last season. Then once I got the CA, I'd do the PA based upon what Lidas said earlier in their thread. After that I'd enter all of the data on the Player Changes tab of the Research Sheet. I'd take the info from what the Pre-Game Editor already had on the player. Then I'd adjust things that look wrong based on what the Talent Analysis at Hockey's Future said or my own knowledge of the player. If certain attributes were set to zero (which leaves them random), I would fill them in based on those same sources (HF and personal knowledge). A good basis for what kind of numbers to use for their attributes is the chart at the bottom of that Breakaway.net link. It has the Average, Minimum, and Maximum attributes based on CA. You can use it as a guideline.

Anyhow... that's what I did. I hope it helps anyone that is looking to help out Lidas with research. The more team's prospects we get done, the better the DB will be!
Just went over to the Breakaway link and found this
Average, minimum and maximum attributes by CA

CA AVR MIN MAX
10 4,5 1,0 10,5
20 5,0 1,0 11,0
30 5,5 1,0 11,5
40 6,0 1,0 12,0
50 6,5 1,0 12,5
60 6,0 1,0 13,0
70 7,5 1,5 13,5
80 8,0 2,0 14,0
90 8,5 2,5 14,5
100 9,0 3,0 15,0
110 9,5 3,5 15,5
120 10,0 4,0 16,0
130 10,5 4,5 16,5
140 11,0 5,0 17,0
150 11,5 5,5 17,5
160 12,0 6,0 18,0
170 12,5 6,5 18,5
180 13,0 7,0 19,0
190 13,5 7,5 19,5
200 14,0 8,0 20,0
Just not sure quite what u guys mean by that

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Post by bruins72 » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:59 pm

MKoivuFan wrote: Just went over to the Breakaway link and found this
Average, minimum and maximum attributes by CA

CA AVR MIN MAX
10 4,5 1,0 10,5
20 5,0 1,0 11,0
30 5,5 1,0 11,5
40 6,0 1,0 12,0
50 6,5 1,0 12,5
60 6,0 1,0 13,0
70 7,5 1,5 13,5
80 8,0 2,0 14,0
90 8,5 2,5 14,5
100 9,0 3,0 15,0
110 9,5 3,5 15,5
120 10,0 4,0 16,0
130 10,5 4,5 16,5
140 11,0 5,0 17,0
150 11,5 5,5 17,5
160 12,0 6,0 18,0
170 12,5 6,5 18,5
180 13,0 7,0 19,0
190 13,5 7,5 19,5
200 14,0 8,0 20,0
Just not sure quite what u guys mean by that
For example, if a player's CA (Current Ability) is 104. That puts him in the 100 CA range. So that means that his average attribute might be a 9, the minimum would be a 3, and the maximum would be a 15. So if that player's talent analysis said that he's got an above average shot, you could probably give him a wrist shot attribute of 10 or 11. If they said he had an amazing shot or something more extreme like that, you could probably move that wrist shot attribute closer to 15 (but I tend not to give out the maximum very often). If the talent analysis said that his weakness was defense, I would put his Checking and Pokechecking attributes closer to 3 (but again, maybe not quite that low unless he was especially bad in that area).

That chart just gives you an idea of where attributes should go based on a player's current ability.

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Post by bruins72 » Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:04 pm

Lidas... I was wondering if we should lower the PA on some of these players that have a "D" as part of their HF grade. For example, I'm giving the Thrashers a shot. I see far too many of their prospects being given grades of 7 or 7.5 but they've got a "D" associated with it, which is "unlikely to reach potential, could drop 3 ratings". To me it looks like they've over-valued several of these players. What I've been doing is dropping the 7.5D players to -7 instead of -8 PA. I'm wondering if I should drop the 7D players to -6 PA to keep them from being over-powered. The game won't be any fun if we've got too many talented players in it.

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