Challenge 42 - 98 TB Lightning - Discussion Thread

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Re: Challenge 42 - 98 TB Lightning - Discussion Thread

Post by nino33 » Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:42 pm

bruins72 wrote:I don't know if that person's statement is true but I do think player development has changed quite a bit in recent updates. Attribute development used to be a gradual thing, even for young players. Now it seems that young players will keep the same stats for a year or two and "pop. Suddenly they'll have much improved stats.
I think some longtime players of EHM05 have gotten so used to the issues that game had (ridiculously fast development, players staying at their peak well into their 30s, all-intense practice working, superplayers abound due to the lack of Player Roles) that they think that it represented real hockey or want it to (which the IRL data clearly shows it doesn't)......and I think some such players are really struggling with having to make the changes in philosophy/practice from EHM05.....and if they traded away their draft picks like you could in EHM05, they're now a couple/few seasons into their online league and have discovered they've destroyed their organization for many years to come, in particular when playing with those who don't have any connection to EHM05 and know only the new EHM (and aren't looking to trade picks for a vet!).....and those "new players" seem to be more likely to better understand/accept the concept of development because they seem more connected with the new/modern IRL NHL where trading is hard to do, players peak in their 20s and drafting/development are key (the opposite of EHM05!)

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Re: Challenge 42 - 98 TB Lightning - Discussion Thread

Post by stone169 » Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:21 pm

Starting lineups for Season 5:

Avery - Lecavlaier - Dumont
Kovalchuk - Richards - Havlat
Cooke - McCauley - Kostopoulos
Kelly - Whitfield - Bradley

Lydman - Kubina
Mara - Sykora
Cross - Bieksa

Anderson
Toskala

Anderson actually outplayed Toskala and earned the right to start the season. Would be really nice to make the playoffs this season are at least come close.

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Re: Challenge 42 - 98 TB Lightning - Discussion Thread

Post by bruins72 » Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:49 pm

nino33 wrote:
bruins72 wrote:I don't know if that person's statement is true but I do think player development has changed quite a bit in recent updates. Attribute development used to be a gradual thing, even for young players. Now it seems that young players will keep the same stats for a year or two and "pop. Suddenly they'll have much improved stats.
I think some longtime players of EHM05 have gotten so used to the issues that game had (ridiculously fast development, players staying at their peak well into their 30s, all-intense practice working, superplayers abound due to the lack of Player Roles) that they think that it represented real hockey or want it to (which the IRL data clearly shows it doesn't)......and I think some such players are really struggling with having to make the changes in philosophy/practice from EHM05.....and if they traded away their draft picks like you could in EHM05, they're now a couple/few seasons into their online league and have discovered they've destroyed their organization for many years to come, in particular when playing with those who don't have any connection to EHM05 and know only the new EHM (and aren't looking to trade picks for a vet!).....and those "new players" seem to be more likely to better understand/accept the concept of development because they seem more connected with the new/modern IRL NHL where trading is hard to do, players peak in their 20s and drafting/development are key (the opposite of EHM05!)
I haven't played EHM 2005 since the day EHM 2007 came out. :dunno: Not sure if this statement really applies to me. I've thousands of hours playing EHM 2007 and several hundred on the new version. I would say the current development model is quite different than it was in EHM 2007 and EHM:EA.

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Re: Challenge 42 - 98 TB Lightning - Discussion Thread

Post by nino33 » Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:14 pm

bruins72 wrote:
nino33 wrote:
bruins72 wrote:I don't know if that person's statement is true but I do think player development has changed quite a bit in recent updates. Attribute development used to be a gradual thing, even for young players. Now it seems that young players will keep the same stats for a year or two and "pop. Suddenly they'll have much improved stats.
I think some longtime players of EHM05 have gotten so used to the issues that game had (ridiculously fast development, players staying at their peak well into their 30s, all-intense practice working, superplayers abound due to the lack of Player Roles) that they think that it represented real hockey or want it to (which the IRL data clearly shows it doesn't)......and I think some such players are really struggling with having to make the changes in philosophy/practice from EHM05.....and if they traded away their draft picks like you could in EHM05, they're now a couple/few seasons into their online league and have discovered they've destroyed their organization for many years to come, in particular when playing with those who don't have any connection to EHM05 and know only the new EHM (and aren't looking to trade picks for a vet!).....and those "new players" seem to be more likely to better understand/accept the concept of development because they seem more connected with the new/modern IRL NHL where trading is hard to do, players peak in their 20s and drafting/development are key (the opposite of EHM05!)
I haven't played EHM 2005 since the day EHM 2007 came out. :dunno: Not sure if this statement really applies to me. I've thousands of hours playing EHM 2007 and several hundred on the new version. I would say the current development model is quite different than it was in EHM 2007 and EHM:EA.
Sorry for any misunderstanding, I wasn't referring to you at all! :-)

I was referring to online players who essentially never (or actually never) played EHM07 and only stopped playing EHM05 last year (I was thinking of the SI poster and some of those I played online EHM with)

My actual/only question in this thread was "are you seeing top 5 picks often having to be 21 before they're even as good as a 3rd liner?" - I'm assuming the difference you're noting isn't that you agree that often top 5 picks take until 21 to even be as good as a 3rd liner?

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Re: Challenge 42 - 98 TB Lightning - Discussion Thread

Post by saberhagen83 » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:16 pm

Four straight wins! I can't even remember when that happened last time. This season is actually looking a bit better, just a point out of a playoff spot (though Rangers have a game in hand) after 47 games...back to .500 hockey yet again. Heatley have gone missing lately. Tried moving him up to the 1st line but that didn't seem to spark him. Hope he comes back to form soon.

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Re: Challenge 42 - 98 TB Lightning - Discussion Thread

Post by stone169 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:54 am

I'm probably going to jinx it by saying this, but here goes...

After 4 seasons the team has finally turned the corner (I hope anyways). Now it is early, it's only the month of October and it is a long season, but after 12 games the team is currently 9-1-2 and sits in 1st place in the East.

The line of Kovalchuk, Richards, and Havlat has been lights out. They've scored 18 goals and have 46 points total.

Goaltending doesn't seem to be an issue as Toskala and Anderson have been great. I could really use another scoring winger on the left side to play with Vinny. I have feeling I'm going to have to give up more than I want to get one, but at this point there is no rush to make that trade.

I really hope this continues.

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Re: Challenge 42 - 98 TB Lightning - Discussion Thread

Post by bruins72 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:16 am

nino33 wrote: My actual/only question in this thread was "are you seeing top 5 picks often having to be 21 before they're even as good as a 3rd liner?" - I'm assuming the difference you're noting isn't that you agree that often top 5 picks take until 21 to even be as good as a 3rd liner?
In a way then, yes. Brad Richards wouldn't have been good enough to play third line up until that point where he "popped" and had a huge jump in development. I had actually given up on him because he looked like he wasn't developing. I drafted Zetterberg in the 99 draft and now in February of 2001 he's looking like he could play third line for me. Maybe he'll pop next season and be a second line guy. I'm just thinking that this change in development from EHM 2007 could be misinterpreted as top picks needing 3 years to be a third liner in the NHL.

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Re: Challenge 42 - 98 TB Lightning - Discussion Thread

Post by nino33 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:37 am

bruins72 wrote:
nino33 wrote: My actual/only question in this thread was "are you seeing top 5 picks often having to be 21 before they're even as good as a 3rd liner?" - I'm assuming the difference you're noting isn't that you agree that often top 5 picks take until 21 to even be as good as a 3rd liner?
In a way then, yes. Brad Richards wouldn't have been good enough to play third line up until that point where he "popped" and had a huge jump in development. I had actually given up on him because he looked like he wasn't developing. I drafted Zetterberg in the 99 draft and now in February of 2001 he's looking like he could play third line for me. Maybe he'll pop next season and be a second line guy. I'm just thinking that this change in development from EHM 2007 could be misinterpreted as top picks needing 3 years to be a third liner in the NHL.
Thanks! I've actually decided to "drop the issue"

As I said on SI to the poster/complainer "I've got lots on the go and have decided given your argumentative responses/lack of appreciation for actual IRL data and testing EHM (and the many hours it takes to compile testing results) I'm not going to even bother looking into the issue"

There's lots for volunteers to look into/do regarding EHM, and I've been so much happier lately that I can pursue my own interests (that are still very helpful for the community), and don't feel the guilt/obligation (my issues!) that I did before & without feeling the same level of stress when I feel the poster is rude/arrogant/ignorant (I'm not going to force anyone to accept my help! HaHa now I just move on to something else/there's lots to do)


For anyone interested I found a number of interesting articles when I googled "what age to NHL players peak at?" https://www.google.ca/#q=what+age+to+nh ... peak+at%3F In addition to the UBC study referenced at the top, I thought the nerdhockey article, the arcticicehockey article and the sbnation article were all very interesting/informative too

IMO it's likely that EHM needs to improve in it's ability to generate players (the handful at best per year this applies to) that can play in the NHL at 18-19 but views like "Many superstars peak at 20-23 years old" & "Connor McDavid at 18 was better than 90 percent of the players in the NHL" don't fit with reality (and they don't fit within the common/known EHM editing practices either)

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Re: Challenge 42 - 98 TB Lightning - Discussion Thread

Post by bede420 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:12 am

Season two is down.. We made it to playoffs, but Florida kicked us out, 2-4 total.. After game two Renberg and Tucker got injured..
Before the free agent opens, i dont know if i will give Puppa a new contract.. Must check if i can trade for another solid keeper.. Otherwise Bierk and Puppa will fight for the spot.

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Re: Challenge 42 - 98 TB Lightning - Discussion Thread

Post by stone169 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:05 pm

The next 8 games were not nearly as nice as the first 12. Looks like I jinx myself. The team went 3-5-0. Still sitting in second though, but that won't last if I keep playing like this.

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Re: Challenge 42 - 98 TB Lightning - Discussion Thread

Post by Peter_Doherty » Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:07 pm

Will spend this off season before season 3 to try and lock down a long term goalie, looks like it will be a tough job. In other news, Brad Richards suddenly looks like a stud, my plan was for him to play in the AHL but now he looks like a top-6 player, we'll see what i do :P

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Re: Challenge 42 - 98 TB Lightning - Discussion Thread

Post by m0fownz0r » Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:59 pm

Peter_Doherty wrote:Will spend this off season before season 3 to try and lock down a long term goalie, looks like it will be a tough job. In other news, Brad Richards suddenly looks like a stud, my plan was for him to play in the AHL but now he looks like a top-6 player, we'll see what i do :P
Nabokov, Khabibulin, Vokoun all are good bets.

If you can somehow snag Luongo, that would'be the best option imo. He was 4stars rated in my game but I coudn't come up with a good enough offer...

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Re: Challenge 42 - 98 TB Lightning - Discussion Thread

Post by Peter_Doherty » Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:04 pm

I have a bunch of goalies i'm looking at, problem is that they are all rated 4 stars by their teams and they won't take any reasonable offer, tried Lydman + Schaefer for a few, no go. I'll try to wear them down ;)

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Re: Challenge 42 - 98 TB Lightning - Discussion Thread

Post by bruins72 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:13 pm

My change in tactics didn't have the big impact on the fourth quarter that I had hoped for. I'll definitely need to find some help for season 4. I really need a goaltender. Langkow is terrible! He's a third line center at best, more likely 4th. Kvasha isn't panning out either.

I'm also a bit concerned that Lecavalier didn't want to negotiate his contract. He's an RFA, so I'll get him signed but I don't know why he's resisting (other than the fact that we stink).

Schwab was really bad this year. Worse than he had been. I think it might be time to bring Bryzgalov up to play backup. Also, Schwab is a UFA and doesn't want to sign, so it looks like I won't have any choice in the matter.

Zetterberg had a good season in the AHL, putting up more than a point per game. He wasn't so successful in his NHL callups though. He had 2 points and was a -5 in 9 games that he played with the big club. Unless he has a giant development pop in the off-season, I think he'll need another year in the AHL. Franzen was also about a point a game player in the AHL. He was called up for just 3 games and managed to put up 2 points and was a +1.

Ryan Malone played 21 games (putting up 18 points) in the AHL before being called up to the big team roster. He stuck with the big club for the rest of the season, playing 55 games and putting up 25 points. He was our team's only full time Plus play with a +1.

Afanasenkov and Elich had really good seasons in the AHL but really don't project to be NHLers.

Hopefully I'll be able to get some help in the draft (Kovalchuk!) and get this team to play a little better.

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Re: Challenge 42 - 98 TB Lightning - Discussion Thread

Post by bruins72 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:14 pm

So it's early May of 2001. We didn't make the playoffs but several of our players are involved in the World Championships. I've already gotten the messages about the players being selected to the rosters. I also got game reports about them. Then I got the roster selection messages again. And now on May 4th (the messages say that they're from the evening of May 3rd) I have 34 news items repeating the same 6 team selections. All in one night. Something funky is going on here... :-?

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Re: Challenge 42 - 98 TB Lightning - Discussion Thread

Post by saberhagen83 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:33 pm

Yeah I had that too. Not sure if it ment selection for each and every game that they were gonna play or what was going on. Got a bit annoying seeing the same messages over and over. Don't think it happened the previous years when my players went there.

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Re: Challenge 42 - 98 TB Lightning - Discussion Thread

Post by bruins72 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:35 pm

No, I don't think it happened like that in previous seasons. Very strange. :-k

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Re: Challenge 42 - 98 TB Lightning - Discussion Thread

Post by bruins72 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:31 pm

So I had the first overall pick in 2001, I passed on the top 3 ranked players (Weiss, Rinne, Plekanec) to take Kovalchuk. He just looked like the best of the bunch. He's also the only one that was NHL ready at this age. So after the draft I immediately sign him. Of course that's when I realize that he can join the team until April of 2002. ](*,) No help this season!

I got Niemi in the second round. He looks like he'll be a good goalie at some point. I got Eric Nystrom in the third round and he looks like he'll be a decent defensive forward at some point. Beyond that, I got Yonkman and Dallman in later rounds. I also Fogstrom, who I'm unfamiliar with, and some unknown little guy from Italy that had some really nice mental attributes.

Overall, not the best draft, especially for the immediate future but it could have been worse.

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Re: Challenge 42 - 98 TB Lightning - Discussion Thread

Post by stone169 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:41 pm

bruins72 wrote:So I had the first overall pick in 2001, I passed on the top 3 ranked players (Weiss, Rinne, Plekanec) to take Kovalchuk. He just looked like the best of the bunch. He's also the only one that was NHL ready at this age. So after the draft I immediately sign him. Of course that's when I realize that he can join the team until April of 2002. ](*,) No help this season!

I know it doesn't take away from the pain knowing just how bad your team may be next season, but when you get Kovalchuk for the 2002-2003 season, the wait will be worth it. I currently sit in 2nd place in the conference and that 19 year old Ilya Kovalchuk is a big reason why. So far in 61 games he has 33g and 33a, and he's a +23. And he's only going to get better.

Forgot to mention he has an AVR of 7.82.
Last edited by stone169 on Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Challenge 42 - 98 TB Lightning - Discussion Thread

Post by stone169 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:46 pm

So I knew I was going to have to give something up to get something back and that's exactly what I did. I needed a top-6 forward and I traded Paul Mara for Karel Rachunek and Patrick Sharp. Sharp has 1g and 3a in 5 games and has an AVR of 7.80. Also made a minor trade, trading Mike Van Ryn for Rene Bourque. With Rene, I get a big body who can play up and down the lineup.

Still hoping to get a young goalie as Ranford, who is currently down in Cleveland, is retiring at the end of the season and that leaves me with only 3 goalies in the system. Maybe that's all I need.

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Re: Challenge 42 - 98 TB Lightning - Discussion Thread

Post by bruins72 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:54 pm

Thanks stone! I'm sure Kovalchuk will be worth it. Even if he doesn't end up as good as he was in real life, he'll still be great. I just hope I can build a team around him that will allow him to succeed! I've made a few costly mistakes that have really set my team back.

Sharp was my first round pick in 2000, so it's good to see that he's pretty good too. Did Mara ever develop for you? For me he played one season in the AHL and then just a few games in the AHL in the next season before getting called up and staying on the Lightning. My scouts say he's a defensive defenseman with 1-2 potential but he hasn't really shown signs of that yet. Also, he's looking a bit more offensive at this point. Two of his best skills are passing and slapshot (behind only hitting). I'm afraid to trade him after how I got burned on Richards though. I'd still consider it for help in goal now.

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Re: Challenge 42 - 98 TB Lightning - Discussion Thread

Post by saberhagen83 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:15 pm

bruins72 wrote:Did Mara ever develop for you? For me he played one season in the AHL and then just a few games in the AHL in the next season before getting called up and staying on the Lightning. My scouts say he's a defensive defenseman with 1-2 potential but he hasn't really shown signs of that yet. Also, he's looking a bit more offensive at this point. Two of his best skills are passing and slapshot (behind only hitting). I'm afraid to trade him after how I got burned on Richards though. I'd still consider it for help in goal now.
Mara has grown for me a little bit. And he is playing well 25p in 72 games in season 3 and now has 28p in 52GP. One of my scouts have him at 1-2 potential and another say 3-4, I think 2nd pairing looks about right for the guy. Personally I would trade him if you can afford to do it and get something good back. I've been eyeing a 2nd line RW and having Mara being part of the deal, but I will probably hold off on it as I have drafted Bourque and hope he will come in next season and move Daigle down to the 3rd line, replacing Selivanov who just came back from a lenghty injury and have dropped in some attributes.

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Re: Challenge 42 - 98 TB Lightning - Discussion Thread

Post by stone169 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:26 pm

bruins72 wrote:Thanks stone! I'm sure Kovalchuk will be worth it. Even if he doesn't end up as good as he was in real life, he'll still be great. I just hope I can build a team around him that will allow him to succeed! I've made a few costly mistakes that have really set my team back.

Sharp was my first round pick in 2000, so it's good to see that he's pretty good too. Did Mara ever develop for you? For me he played one season in the AHL and then just a few games in the AHL in the next season before getting called up and staying on the Lightning. My scouts say he's a defensive defenseman with 1-2 potential but he hasn't really shown signs of that yet. Also, he's looking a bit more offensive at this point. Two of his best skills are passing and slapshot (behind only hitting). I'm afraid to trade him after how I got burned on Richards though. I'd still consider it for help in goal now.
Mara ended up being a pretty good player for me. I started using him primarily on the PP the last two seasons and I'm pretty sure he would've picked up between 50 to 60 points for me this season. But I also managed to stack my young defencemen talent pool through trades, which made it easier to deal him.

I really needed a top 6 forward desperately. I had Sean Avery slotted into that role, and it wasn't working out. He's a 3rd line guy for me. As for Sharp, looking at his stats, it seems like it was a situation where he wasn't panning out for the Preds. Sometimes you have to trade something of value to get something of value. I got Patrick Sharp and Karel Rachunek (offensive type of defenseman, which was another need albeit minor) for Mara. The board liked the trade.

I'm still having some goalie issues though. Lundqvist has been the guy in Cleveland all season long, and I really want to keep him down there next season as well. Even though both Anderson and Toskala have been good, neither one has really ran with starting job role. Both guys still seem to have a What the Dickens game.

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Re: Challenge 42 - 98 TB Lightning - Discussion Thread

Post by stone169 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:37 pm

saberhagen83 wrote:
bruins72 wrote:Did Mara ever develop for you? For me he played one season in the AHL and then just a few games in the AHL in the next season before getting called up and staying on the Lightning. My scouts say he's a defensive defenseman with 1-2 potential but he hasn't really shown signs of that yet. Also, he's looking a bit more offensive at this point. Two of his best skills are passing and slapshot (behind only hitting). I'm afraid to trade him after how I got burned on Richards though. I'd still consider it for help in goal now.
Mara has grown for me a little bit. And he is playing well 25p in 72 games in season 3 and now has 28p in 52GP. One of my scouts have him at 1-2 potential and another say 3-4, I think 2nd pairing looks about right for the guy. Personally I would trade him if you can afford to do it and get something good back. I've been eyeing a 2nd line RW and having Mara being part of the deal, but I will probably hold off on it as I have drafted Bourque and hope he will come in next season and move Daigle down to the 3rd line, replacing Selivanov who just came back from a lenghty injury and have dropped in some attributes.
I wanted to get rid of Selivanov after Season 1. The only problem was, I couldn't trade him, partially because of the contract I gave him. Also I couldn't put him on waivers, because he was playing on the PP and I had him moving up and down the lineup for me. It was like..."Selivanov is playing bad, fine, put him on the 4th line and now the 4 line is playing well." or "This top 6 winger is out with an injury. No problem. Put Selivanov in there." I had to literally draft and develop my way into finally getting rid of him.

I hate and love having players like that.

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Re: Challenge 42 - 98 TB Lightning - Discussion Thread

Post by Asher413 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:54 pm

bruins72 wrote:So it's early May of 2001. We didn't make the playoffs but several of our players are involved in the World Championships. I've already gotten the messages about the players being selected to the rosters. I also got game reports about them. Then I got the roster selection messages again. And now on May 4th (the messages say that they're from the evening of May 3rd) I have 34 news items repeating the same 6 team selections. All in one night. Something funky is going on here... :-?
Same here. The question would be is it the original save, or is it the related to the EHT bug?
bruins72 wrote:So I had the first overall pick in 2001, I passed on the top 3 ranked players (Weiss, Rinne, Plekanec) to take Kovalchuk. He just looked like the best of the bunch. He's also the only one that was NHL ready at this age. So after the draft I immediately sign him. Of course that's when I realize that he can join the team until April of 2002. ](*,) No help this season!

I got Niemi in the second round. He looks like he'll be a good goalie at some point. I got Eric Nystrom in the third round and he looks like he'll be a decent defensive forward at some point. Beyond that, I got Yonkman and Dallman in later rounds. I also Fogstrom, who I'm unfamiliar with, and some unknown little guy from Italy that had some really nice mental attributes.

Overall, not the best draft, especially for the immediate future but it could have been worse.
I'm not sure why but I could get Kovalchuk right over. The only thing I can first think of is that I leave any guys who all my scouts love on my shortlist, so maybe he negotiated a release clause because of the interest?



Has anyone traded for a goalie solution? Just curious.

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