Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

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archibalduk
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Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

Post by archibalduk » Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:54 pm

All Challenge #25 discussion can go here!

Make sure you download the Challenge Edition of the Nino 1974 Rosters: http://sdrv.ms/RhS9FL

The Challenge Edition is subtly different from the vanilla 1974 rosters in that the Detroit GM/Head Coach has been changed to a Head Coach. This is so that he is still employed by the team when you take over as human GM.

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bruins72
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Re: Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

Post by bruins72 » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:13 pm

Now while normal challenge rules apply here, there are a couple additional things that the creator of the 1974 database, Nino33, would like to see everyone try to do to stay within the spirit of the era that this challenge takes place in.
nino33 wrote:Just thought I'd mention...you know how there's Challenge Rules and also people also have their own "personal rules" and that this often helps a certain type of user to enjoy the game more - Ideally I've long thought a great personal rule for the 1974 db would be "you have to have a Scout whose nationality is the country you're scouting/drafting from"

i.e. to draft from Sweden/Finland you have to have a Swedish/Finnish Scout

In the 1974 db I've already given some teams such Scouts, as they were scouting/drafting from overseas IRL in the 1970s (like the Jets/Islanders) - maybe it'd be a workable idea in the Challenge to let users sign such Scouts at start-up (maybe 1 Finn, 1 Swede), and that they have to have such a Scout to Draft from Europe/Russia? Wouldn't matter how good the Scout was (and I could create a few dozen average such Scouts who are Free Agents at start-up if need be)

Or maybe this idea is "to much" - thoughts?


EDIT - It looks like the Red Wings already have a Swedish Scout!
And then there is this one...
nino33 wrote: Are you aware of the "European/Russian issue"? While I've deleted all modern players who played in European/Russian Elite Leagues, there are around 100 historical European/Russian players, many VERY talented (Tretiak, Yakushev, Kharlamov, Bubla, Hlinka, Novy, Holecek, Dzurrila, etc PLUS younger players like the Stastny brothers, Larionov, Fetisov, and more)...testing has shown in what seems to be some randomness (seems to be no definite "system" to it) - European and Russian contracts are meaningless! Some players WITHOUT an NHL Release Clause still left for the NHL, and many would "immediately sign/arrive" on Day 1 of gameplay, even if in-game it said he couldn't join your club until a future transfer date! (I know you have to wait in a Challenge until a year has passed, but that just delays the issue a year IMO)

This really disappointed me, and took a lot away a lot of my motivation to create entire European/Russian Leagues...I myself did NOT want to spend 6-12 months only to reproduce the modern hockey world (and IMO ruin what I did produce!)

For the Challenge the relevance is after season 1 a user could sign a world class superstar like Tretiak when that's completely unrealistic! Not enough testing was done to determine how frequently good players would come to NA…in multiple tests
- some would say they'd come over and even sign but it never happened (weirdness)
- some would refuse to come in some tests, and sign and come to North Anerica in others!
- Tretiak seemed to always sign, and he could/would be an immediate gamechanger
- I can’t be sure that every user’s opportunity to sign SUPERSTAR Russians/Czech-Slovaks in their prime would be the same
FYI - The very best of the Swede talent pool is mostly in the NHL already, and the Finns weren't yet producing stars (Kurri's in-game but he's still a teenager)

Also not enough testing was done to see how much the AI signed players from Europe/Russia (they'd sign some, but it helped that I've severely reduced player Reputation and they pretty much all have an Adaptability of 1 and Loyalty of 20 – and yet some would still sign and do well!)...I just wanted you to be aware - maybe no Free Agent signing of Russians or Czechs/Slovaks? But Finns and Swedes are fine?

The draft is a different story, and while I'd prefer "no Russians or Czech-Slovaks" drafted for many of years I'm not sure if the AI is able to Draft/sign them...but maybe it should be determined/stated what's OK?

IRL at the time Swedes and Finns could be signed (and a few were)…some research I found online noted “of the 126 prospects selected in the 1979 NHL Entry Draft, only six were Europeans (4.8%). In 1989, that number grew to 38 of 252 selections (15.1%). The 2000 NHL Entry Draft featured the largest European contingent in the history of the event as 123 players of the 293 drafted were European-born, representing 42% of the Draft.”

It's your Challenge, your call...just wanted you to be aware of the issue (it's come up multiple times over the last 18 months)
So I really think that there needs to be a rule implemented for this one. No signing of European players (that includes Russia/Czech players) with your UFA signings.

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Re: Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

Post by bruins72 » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:20 pm

Also, please be aware that this database does NOT use the CSD patch!

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Re: Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

Post by Manimal » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:22 pm

Good ideas. I'll play it that way. I won't have scouts scout outside of their region and I won't sign Euro UFAs.
Now I probably won't have the time to play much as I'm working hard on 5.0 but we'll see.
This challenge loks like good fun!

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Re: Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

Post by bruins72 » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:26 pm

I hope you do have time to get a little playing in. It should be a unique challenge!

I'm also going to play that way. This also means that I won't use the "Scout NHL Entry Draft" option in scouting because that will have my scout look at everyone eligible for that draft. I'll have my scouts scouring the WHL, OHL, QMJHL, and the United States. Since we have a Swedish scout, I'll have my Swedish scout look there. If I'm able to hire a Russian or Czech scout, I'll look there too. Can anyone think of any leagues I'm missing scouting for in North America?

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Re: Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

Post by Loosie » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:27 pm

Wow I like this. I'm going to see what I can do. The renos are done at home, but still a lot of work to do. So we'll see how much I can get through.

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Re: Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

Post by eric1985 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:17 am

haha, 5 games in and i just realized we have 2 player/coaches lol

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Re: Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

Post by Manimal » Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:47 am

I have slowly started this challenge.
I have decided not to sign any modern day staff for the team.
I also won't sign any modern day players for my AHL-affiliate

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Re: Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

Post by bruins72 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:07 pm

When you say "modern day" so you mean players/staff that you've heard of now? As far as I know, this is a total conversion where the old players and staff have been replaced with the ones of that era.

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Re: Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

Post by Manimal » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:39 pm

bruins72 wrote:When you say "modern day" so you mean players/staff that you've heard of now? As far as I know, this is a total conversion where the old players and staff have been replaced with the ones of that era.
He missed some ;)

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Re: Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

Post by bruins72 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:39 pm

Ah! I didn't realize. Maybe we should start a thread to compile a list for him for the next version?

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Re: Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

Post by nino33 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:55 pm

Manimal wrote:
bruins72 wrote:When you say "modern day" so you mean players/staff that you've heard of now? As far as I know, this is a total conversion where the old players and staff have been replaced with the ones of that era.
He missed some ;)
Nope...100% of the Staff I said I deleted I did, and 100% of the Staff I said I created I did (i.e.NHL Staff).
The European/Russian Staff weren't touched, and little if anything was done to the non-NHL Staff (as stated on TBL repeatedly; I did delete "Free Agent" staff too but that's it)

While I took the advice of others and deleted more modern players (such as the modern players in Major Junior), I held off on deleting more Players/Staff in mass as I was fearful it wouldn't work (I’m still waiting to get my hands on a "blank database" to see if it will even work…I'm concerned it won’t, as I don’t think the game “creates” many players/staff at start-up…in fact I think it might not create any players/staff ever)

ALSO if these modern "players/staff that you've heard of" are players/staff only those knowledgeable about European/Russian hockey would know, then I wouldn't know them at all!!!...I did give 100% of non-North American Staff an Adaptability of 1 and a Loyalty of 20 and low Reputation (using a tool that Arch made)

In the future I think I’ll edit such Staff so their Attributes are all 0s and their PA is like -11


To be honest when I considered my own "personal rules" I guess they included not signing away Staff, and not really looking for ANY non-North American Staff besides maybe Scouts...I myself would NEVER look to the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Russia or any of the newer countries that used to be part of Russia, as back then (1970s/1980s) these countries were communist and no one was really allowed in/out - so you couldn't practically hire a Russian Scout to scout Russia



Regards :-)

P.S. I mean no disrespect to those outside of North America (and to those in North America who closely follow the hockey outside of North America)....but I'm just not likely to spend hundreds and hundreds of hours to edit Staff/Players to be "fake" and not modern because for myself I can't tell the difference!!! AND given the fact that European/Russian contracts in EHM are essentially meaningless, my desire to spend hundreds and hundreds of hours creating "historical" European/Russian Players/Staff is virtually nil...BUT if someone else wants to do all the work required to "fix" this issue, be my guest!

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Re: Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

Post by Manimal » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:30 pm

I think I'll leave them be then. With their low reputation they won't get signed by (AI)NHL teams anyway.
And I have other editing to do...

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Re: Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

Post by nino33 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:42 pm

Manimal wrote:I think I'll leave them be then. With their low reputation they won't get signed by (AI)NHL teams anyway.
And I have other editing to do...
I am desperately hoping this is the case!
It might give me reason to carry on with creating additional European/Russian historical Staff/Players.

I'm OK if it's "possible" to do so (sign quality modern European/Russian Staff) if the AI doesn't...as we all know it's also "possible" to manipulate the AI unrealistically while using a modern database and create a virtual all-star team (winning almost all games and Cup after Cup)...a big part of the reason I loved a Challenge release was that it fostered a more reasonable/realistic play style!

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Re: Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

Post by Manimal » Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:51 pm

I was referring to non-playing staff. I have no idea if it is the same with the players

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Re: Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

Post by nino33 » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:38 pm

Manimal wrote:I was referring to non-playing staff. I have no idea if it is the same with the players
Ahhh...while the players not only have the same low Rep/etc but they also have CAs/PAs that never exceed 100, so from an NHL perspective I don't think signing a "modern player from overseas" will help much...

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Re: Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

Post by bruins72 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:31 pm

I love seeing all of these guys that I've only ever known as coaches or GMs back in the days when they were players.

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Re: Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

Post by bruins72 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:56 pm

I'm actually doing better than I expected to. 50 games in and I'm in 5th place in the conference. I almost wish I was doing worse. I'd love to get a crack at one of those top draft picks. Even if I couldn't get Bossy, I'd love to get Langway for my defense! Bob Suter looks pretty good (though small) ranked #34. For forwards, if I stay around my current ranking, Joe Mullen might be available when I pick. He's ranked #16 and I could definitely use a good LW.

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Re: Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

Post by nino33 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:20 pm

First I have to say...wow, it is very special for me to see "1974 db hockey discussion" 8-)


bruins72 wrote:Bob Suter looks pretty good (though small) ranked #34
Everybody know (formerly of Nashville, now a rich man in Minnesota) superstar modern player Ryan Suter? - Bob Suter's the father of Ryan Suter!

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Re: Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

Post by bruins72 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:20 pm

That's what I thought. And Gary Suter is Bob's brother. Those are some nice hockey bloodlines!

Speaking of which... I didn't see Gary listed in Bob's favorite staff. Are there any plans to add siblings and other family relations to "favorite staff" at some point?

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Re: Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

Post by nino33 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:26 pm

bruins72 wrote:Are there any plans to add siblings and other family relations to "favorite staff" at some point?
I wouldn't be against it!

My "big picture list" will likely keep me busy for awhile though (such as further editing of AHL/CHL players, creating historical Staff for the AHL/CHL and Major Junior, and the continued refinement/editing of 16 years worth of "minor hockey kids")

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Re: Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

Post by bruins72 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:46 pm

Oh, just a word of warning to everyone... when you go to renew your contracts, remember that Berenson and Bergman are player/coaches. You must have to click something to re-sign them as player/coaches. I didn't pay attention and just offered them new contracts, which they signed. So now neither one of them is a player/coach, just players and I'm looking for a couple more assistants mid-season.

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Re: Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

Post by Loosie » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:32 pm

darn. I just offered them new contract, I''l have to go back and see if the accepted yet and if I can alter the deal int time. Just finished my 40th game the other night but have yet to post the stats.

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Re: Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

Post by joehelmer » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:10 pm

I think I accidently signed Bergman as player, but I can't select player/coach for Berenson, so I might have to force him into retirement. :-(

I'm also doing better than I expected, after 58 games I'm in 5th in Conference ranking, Chicago is doing too good in my division for me to win it.

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Re: Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

Post by Loosie » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:07 am

yup, too late, lost them both as ACs.

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