EHM The Blue Line

hockeyanalytics.com has a lot of info:


"Devoted to the Scientific Exploration of the Game of Hockey"
http://www.hockeyanalytics.com/Research.htm

Is it possible to decide where players appearing (getting created) at various clubs are born?

In Denmark, and probably in many other nations, hockey is very local. For example I would imagine, that at least 90% of all youth players at Danish clubs are born in, or very close to, the city/town where the club they start playing hockey for is located.

In EHM this did not work very well, and players appearing at clubs would often have a birth city hundreds of miles away from the club they spawned at.

On the other hand I also think that teams should have foreign born in the team. Junior teams from Sweden, Finland, Russia and so on have many foreigners

ElQuapo wrote:Is it possible to decide where players appearing (getting created) at various clubs are born?

In Denmark, and probably in many other nations, hockey is very local. For example I would imagine, that at least 90% of all youth players at Danish clubs are born in, or very close to, the city/town where the club they start playing hockey for is located.

In EHM this did not work very well, and players appearing at clubs would often have a birth city hundreds of miles away from the club they spawned at.

From what I noticed, in Canadian youth leagues, the players were born in or near the city they play in.

Alessandro wrote:On the other hand I also think that teams should have foreign born in the team. Junior teams from Sweden, Finland, Russia and so on have many foreigners

Agreed. Care should be taken so that this phenomenon is restricted to leagues above a certain reputation and in consequent numbers however, or you'll start seeing several Swedes and Canadians and Swiss playing their junior in the Japanese or Korean University leagues, for instance. To my knowledge it never happens.


- YZG

YZG wrote:

Alessandro wrote:On the other hand I also think that teams should have foreign born in the team. Junior teams from Sweden, Finland, Russia and so on have many foreigners

Agreed. Care should be taken so that this phenomenon is restricted to leagues above a certain reputation and in consequent numbers however, or you'll start seeing several Swedes and Canadians and Swiss playing their junior in the Japanese or Korean University leagues, for instance. To my knowledge it never happens.


- YZG

Yes.
So AFAIK

Sweden: Many players from the European minor countries go and play juniors in Sweden. Especially from Norway and Denmark, but also from Italy, Slovenia (Kopitar), Austria, and so on.
Finland: Pretty much the same, with maybe less foreigners. And more Russians and Estonians.
Russia: Players from the FSU plays junior there, especially from Kazakhstan and Ukraine. Rarely from Latvia and other FSU countries. Teams with many Kazakhs are Avangard Omsk and Metallurg Magnitogorsk, for example.
Germany: The German junior leagues are pretty much diversified, there are many players from nearby countries like Italy, Austria, Belgium, Holland. Particular situation with people from the FSU. Many Russians and Latvians with German citizenship.
Austria: Red Bulls junior team has plenty of foreigners. I'd say that having some Czech, Slovenian, and other nearby countries wouldn't be out of place
Switzerland: similar to Germany.
Italy: close to zero diversification, but the extremely high immigration rate is bringing more and more foreigners in the junior teams. Especially from Romania, Switzerland, Austria.

But don't these youth players normally start out in their own countries, and then move to Sweden etc.?

I think it would be more realistic if they where generated in their home country, and then if they where very talented, they would likely move to a junior team in one of the bigger hockey nations after a season or two.

ElQuapo wrote:But don't these youth players normally start out in their own countries, and then move to Sweden etc.?

I think it would be more realistic if they where generated in their home country, and then if they where very talented, they would likely move to a junior team in one of the bigger hockey nations after a season or two.

Well, in FM it's made on the way I suggested. I think it wont be easy to program teams which hunt for junior talent abroad. Mostly such players aren't even bought by the teams, they just go there for studying, and so on. Otherwise why, for example, Italian teams should lose their top junior players to Sweden/Finland/America without saying a word? IMHO it's too complicate to be rendered and thus it would be simpler to have foreign players generated abroad.

Alessandro wrote:

ElQuapo wrote:But don't these youth players normally start out in their own countries, and then move to Sweden etc.?

I think it would be more realistic if they where generated in their home country, and then if they where very talented, they would likely move to a junior team in one of the bigger hockey nations after a season or two.

Well, in FM it's made on the way I suggested. I think it wont be easy to program teams which hunt for junior talent abroad. Mostly such players aren't even bought by the teams, they just go there for studying, and so on. Otherwise why, for example, Italian teams should lose their top junior players to Sweden/Finland/America without saying a word? IMHO it's too complicate to be rendered and thus it would be simpler to have foreign players generated abroad.

Most junior players, at least in Denmark and probably most smaller hockey nations, are not under contract with their clubs. They are free to move when and where they want. Perhaps we could just have for example swedish junior teams try to pick up some of the top junior players in Denmark, Norway etc.

We could also have a "future plans" variable for all players. Like in EHM you had :

"Aiming to play Major Junior hockey."
"Aiming to play College hockey."

We could then add more. For players from smaller nations we could have talented players generated with future plans like :

"Looking to move to the Swedish Junior leagues."
etc.

ElQuapo wrote:Is it possible to decide where players appearing (getting created) at various clubs are born?

In Denmark, and probably in many other nations, hockey is very local. For example I would imagine, that at least 90% of all youth players at Danish clubs are born in, or very close to, the city/town where the club they start playing hockey for is located.

In EHM this did not work very well, and players appearing at clubs would often have a birth city hundreds of miles away from the club they spawned at.

I see what you mean. I know in the US, most players aged 18 and under play for high school teams (whether they be a public high school or a prep school). The public high schools are stocked full of local kids and the prep schools (high end private schools that prepare you for elite colleges) might draw a few players from beyond the local area. For example, North St. Paul is a public high school in Minnesota. They should be stocked with kids from Minnesota. Thayer Academy on the other hand is a prep school in Braintree Massachusetts. They're likely to have a good portion of their players from Massachusetts and some surrounding states (CT, RI, ME, NH, and maybe NY and NJ) but they'll also have a few players from other parts of the US.

bruins72 wrote:

ElQuapo wrote:Is it possible to decide where players appearing (getting created) at various clubs are born?

In Denmark, and probably in many other nations, hockey is very local. For example I would imagine, that at least 90% of all youth players at Danish clubs are born in, or very close to, the city/town where the club they start playing hockey for is located.

In EHM this did not work very well, and players appearing at clubs would often have a birth city hundreds of miles away from the club they spawned at.

I see what you mean. I know in the US, most players aged 18 and under play for high school teams (whether they be a public high school or a prep school). The public high schools are stocked full of local kids and the prep schools (high end private schools that prepare you for elite colleges) might draw a few players from beyond the local area. For example, North St. Paul is a public high school in Minnesota. They should be stocked with kids from Minnesota. Thayer Academy on the other hand is a prep school in Braintree Massachusetts. They're likely to have a good portion of their players from Massachusetts and some surrounding states (CT, RI, ME, NH, and maybe NY and NJ) but they'll also have a few players from other parts of the US.

Is it possible to make the player generator to generate players on a league spesific basis? So that it would for example create a preset percentage of players to a league from predefined states.

I think the popularity thing could be great. A player could be of 3rd-line caliber and might not be much of a big name around the league, but to his teams fans and teammates could be as popular as a superstar. A player that comes to mind is Wayne Simmonds of the Kings. He's not the most talented player in any area but is widely appreciated within the fanbase and the team. Also Sean Avery could fit that description.

Also, if you're doing the different player style from different countries I think Sweden should produce alot of two-way players. Both forwards and defencemen. There's very few Swedish players that are one dimensional.

I believe someone else already said it and I think it could be hard to pull off, but there's quiet alot of players in Europe who are like superstars over here but never manage to adapt their game to the North American style. Also, there's some players that choose to stay in Europe. I'm thinking Alexander Radulov who was looking really good in Nashville but choose to go back to Russia where he's now a star. André Petersson has declined contracts from NHL for two years now because he feel he'll develop better in Sweden. Again, I'm not sure if this is even doable but it's worth to think about.

That's a good point. I know in EHM there are a couple different reputation levels but maybe this game could expand upon that? Maybe there could be a Current Team Rep, Current League Rep, and World Rep? Something like that? That might cover it. And then of a player has a certain Team Rep they could add the team as a Favorite Team. And to expand upon that idea, maybe have a Favored League or Favored Continent. This could be used to help keep players in certain European leagues and out of the NHL. So even if a player is from Sweden, you wouldn't put his Favored League as SEL unless he has spent a lot of time there and had no plans of joining the NHL.

JMFJ wrote:Also Sean Avery could fit that description.

Can there be negative numbers in the popularity attributes? I mean, Avery isn't an unknown. In fact, he's extremely well known. And extremely disliked. Does the popularity functionality cover that?

ArtVandelay wrote:

JMFJ wrote:Also Sean Avery could fit that description.

Can there be negative numbers in the popularity attributes? I mean, Avery isn't an unknown. In fact, he's extremely well known. And extremely disliked. Does the popularity functionality cover that?

Popularity would work together with reputation. Avery, well known would have high numbers in reputation but also, as you say, extremely disliked and would have low numbers in popularity.

Only problem I could see is how the game would figure out how a player would be unpopular.

JMFJ wrote: Only problem I could see is how the game would figure out how a player would be unpopular.

That could be determined by some of the player's mental attributes. Various things could play into that. Maybe things like professionalism and sportsmanship? Maybe a player's "important games" attribute could make him more popular (or less popular). Consistency? A great scorer that goes through serious scoring droughts can really frustrate fans. Or a big and tall player that plays soft? It would be hard to pull off but it could really make things interesting.

In addition to bruins' suggestions, I would say Work Rate and Teamwork should be extremely important.

I know here in Philadelphia, for example, fans adore anyone who puts in an honest effort, whether they're good or not. A good example being Laperriere. He's not very good, but he'll do just about anything he can to help the team, and the fans love him for it.

Good suggestions, B! Boston is the same way. We love our "lunch-pail" guys. It's a common theme in cities with lots of blue-collar fans.

Good ideas, that would be ideal, not sure when it will get realized though.

dabo wrote:Good ideas, that would be ideal, not sure when it will get realized though.

Well, we can't really expect you to release a complete supergame the first thing you do :>

While I'm at it, how is this developing?

Have a look at my blog, it is the best source for information regarding what we are currently doing and will be doing next. I will post a new entry before the end of the month.

I don't know if it's been mentioned already, but would it be possible to give the players different kinds of personalities, like FM has. For example; driving to the net, hard slap shot, dangles alot, never dangles. You know, that kind of things.

Also, another thing I don't know if it's been mentioned, but leadership could be decided from other attributes. I know workrate and consistency is something every captain should have.

Aslo, regarding leadership, not really something that concers player creation but still. Maybe we should choose captains in the preseason like in the FM-series. And maybe 3, 4 or even 5 alternate captains. That way, if the captain got injured you could be asked to give one of the alternate's the C or just play with 3 alternates untill the captain is back. Also, some teams don't always pick a captain but chooses 3 alternates. Just something to think about

23qwerty wrote:

ElQuapo wrote:Is it possible to decide where players appearing (getting created) at various clubs are born?

In Denmark, and probably in many other nations, hockey is very local. For example I would imagine, that at least 90% of all youth players at Danish clubs are born in, or very close to, the city/town where the club they start playing hockey for is located.

In EHM this did not work very well, and players appearing at clubs would often have a birth city hundreds of miles away from the club they spawned at.

From what I noticed, in Canadian youth leagues, the players were born in or near the city they play in.

Sort of. The CHL (which is the WHL, OHL, and QMJHL) have fairly strict borders that force players born(or developed from a certain age) within those borders to play for teams from within those borders. So all players from Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, BC and western US states must play for WHL, all from Ontario and select states(I am a bit fuzzy on the US borders but luckily so is the CHL. For example Trevor Lewis from Utah played for Owen Sound in OHL after an appeal to CHL, not sure why as he should have been WHL) all play in OHL and QUebec, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, PEI, Newfoundland and select states play in QMJHL.

The only exception to these rules is if a player gets released and subsquently every SINGLE team in a certain league passes on a player, can he go to another league. I cannot think of any examples of this off the top of my head and though they do happen, those players are not NHL or usually even AHL prospects. This possibility is so remote I would not bother programming it. I can see if I can find the US borders based on league a little later.

And if Junior A leagues(AJHL(where Joe Colbourne was drafted from), BCHL(Kyle Turris), etc) are going to be programmed in, I know all the rules from those as well so let me know.

HoldenC wrote:

23qwerty wrote:

ElQuapo wrote:Is it possible to decide where players appearing (getting created) at various clubs are born?

In Denmark, and probably in many other nations, hockey is very local. For example I would imagine, that at least 90% of all youth players at Danish clubs are born in, or very close to, the city/town where the club they start playing hockey for is located.

In EHM this did not work very well, and players appearing at clubs would often have a birth city hundreds of miles away from the club they spawned at.

From what I noticed, in Canadian youth leagues, the players were born in or near the city they play in.

Sort of. The CHL (which is the WHL, OHL, and QMJHL) have fairly strict borders that force players born(or developed from a certain age) within those borders to play for teams from within those borders. So all players from Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, BC and western US states must play for WHL, all from Ontario and select states(I am a bit fuzzy on the US borders but luckily so is the CHL. For example Trevor Lewis from Utah played for Owen Sound in OHL after an appeal to CHL, not sure why as he should have been WHL) all play in OHL and QUebec, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, PEI, Newfoundland and select states play in QMJHL.

The only exception to these rules is if a player gets released and subsquently every SINGLE team in a certain league passes on a player, can he go to another league. I cannot think of any examples of this off the top of my head and though they do happen, those players are not NHL or usually even AHL prospects. This possibility is so remote I would not bother programming it. I can see if I can find the US borders based on league a little later.

And if Junior A leagues(AJHL(where Joe Colbourne was drafted from), BCHL(Kyle Turris), etc) are going to be programmed in, I know all the rules from those as well so let me know.

I think the question was more about the minor hockey teams rather than CHL ones, which actually draft their players. These have restraints on the origins of their players, but they can come from any town within the boundaries they have to respect. But young players in-game usually spawn at the Midget level or lower (I'm not sure at what age dabo wants his players to be spawned, but I suppose 14-15 y.o. is perfect). I agree that those teams should form players with birthplaces close to the city in which the team is based. That'll allow optimal realism.

- YZG

YZG wrote:

HoldenC wrote:

23qwerty wrote: From what I noticed, in Canadian youth leagues, the players were born in or near the city they play in.

Sort of. The CHL (which is the WHL, OHL, and QMJHL) have fairly strict borders that force players born(or developed from a certain age) within those borders to play for teams from within those borders. So all players from Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, BC and western US states must play for WHL, all from Ontario and select states(I am a bit fuzzy on the US borders but luckily so is the CHL. For example Trevor Lewis from Utah played for Owen Sound in OHL after an appeal to CHL, not sure why as he should have been WHL) all play in OHL and QUebec, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, PEI, Newfoundland and select states play in QMJHL.

The only exception to these rules is if a player gets released and subsquently every SINGLE team in a certain league passes on a player, can he go to another league. I cannot think of any examples of this off the top of my head and though they do happen, those players are not NHL or usually even AHL prospects. This possibility is so remote I would not bother programming it. I can see if I can find the US borders based on league a little later.

And if Junior A leagues(AJHL(where Joe Colbourne was drafted from), BCHL(Kyle Turris), etc) are going to be programmed in, I know all the rules from those as well so let me know.

I think the question was more about the minor hockey teams rather than CHL ones, which actually draft their players. These have restraints on the origins of their players, but they can come from any town within the boundaries they have to respect. But young players in-game usually spawn at the Midget level or lower (I'm not sure at what age dabo wants his players to be spawned, but I suppose 14-15 y.o. is perfect). I agree that those teams should form players with birthplaces close to the city in which the team is based. That'll allow optimal realism.

- YZG

Ah I see. Yep, in that case players in Canada would almost exclusively start on teams very near birthplaces.