EHM The Blue Line

I dno about McPhee, think he's pretty bad. Might just be biased memory since the first thing i remember is the Forsberg for Erat trade and the second thing is that Caps had no depth at all under GMGM.

Peter_Doherty wrote:first thing i remember is the Forsberg for Erat

One can never get respected after one of the worst trades ever.

Sure is hard to look past atleast

Jackpot for Benn.

I was really surprised that the hockey analytics guy called Shea Weber an "average, serviceable" player.....and now I see he regrets his words http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/shea ... analytics/

Those that support the new hockey analytics (especially those that make money off it) must really be hoping Subban does great in Nashville and Weber flops in Montreal.....if Weber (and a healthy Price) go deep into the playoffs and Nashville struggles at all a lot of damage could be done to the credibility of hockey analytics IMO (changing from a "team focus" to a "Subban focus" I don't think's going to help Nashville...they were called smashville for a reason, I don't think Subban's style fits in on that team myself)

Making an adamant argument for Subban being the better player is essentially saying Hockey Canada has made mistakes (while winning!) by having Webber on the teams and not Subban.....I think Matt Pfeffer's mea cupla ("recent negative comments...do not represent my true feelings") is him backtracking to save the jobs of others and potentially a future job for himself (and I thought he was arguing data and not feelings, so it seems disingenuous to me...doesn't believe in his own work enough to stand behind it?)

I also think Subban's going to be surprised how much bigger/stronger and more physical the West is compared to the East, and I could see him making even more of the mental/puckhandling mistakes he's prone too as the season wears on

I think you have a fair point there but I think that the Habs could go really far with Price healthy without taking Weber into consideration. We saw what happened when Price was out for them and we've seen plenty of times how he's able to carry the team on his back when he's fully fit.

I think his quote where he called him average was taken out of context. I'm just speculating here, but i read it like he said Weber was average in a GF% context, not that he's an average NHL D-man (i.e. a #4).

I think Weber is an average first pairing D-man at this point, still very good but not great like he used to be. Meanwhile i hold PK Subban as a top-5 D-man in the league. With this said, maybe Weber fits Habs better short term. One thing is clear, you can't just look at one season and try to evaluate this trade, the biggest problem from a Habs perspective is the contracts and age of the players, that's why i think Preds robbed them blind.

In other news we had a pretty big trade involving my Rangers a couple days ago, we sent Derick Brassard and a 7th rounder 2018 to Sens for Mika Zibanejad and a 2nd rounder 2018. I was really shocked by this trade, didn't see it coming at all. After letting it sink in i think Gorton made a great trade, short term we get the slightly worse player but he's 5.5 years younger and we save cap space this season (Zbad will probably command around $5m next season, he's an RFA) along with adding a high pick. For Sens it looks like this was more or less a budget move, Brassard will only be paid $10m over the next 3 years while his cap hit has a $5m AAV, Melnyk being cheap again. It does make them better next season (probably), so their chances of getting into playoffs are better.

Peter_Doherty wrote:that's why i think Preds robbed them blind.

You're like the only person I've seen that is saying that. There's more to it than a 1 vs 1 trade like I mentionned here a couple of weeks ago when it occured. It seems pretty obvious to me why that trade happened but I'm not going to repear myself here and enter an argument with you.


And Nino I personally thibk that some people are starting to rely on hockey advance stats too much right now.

philou21 wrote:

Peter_Doherty wrote:that's why i think Preds robbed them blind.

You're like the only person I've seen that is saying that. There's more to it than a 1 vs 1 trade like I mentionned here a couple of weeks ago when it occured. It seems pretty obvious to me why that trade happened but I'm not going to repear myself here and enter an argument with you.


And Nino I personally thibk that some people are starting to rely on hockey advance stats too much right now.

Everyone that believe even a little bit in analytics think Preds won that trade. But even if you don't then 'everyone' else believe that Weber and Subban are pretty close in terms of impact on the ice, yes? So if you then add their contracts into the mix then Preds win the deal anyway.

Ofcouse there is other factors playing in, mostly that Habs FO seems to hate PK because he's a character off the ice or something like that and the narrative after the trade is that he's poison to 'the room' which is think is Kasparaitis but oh well.

I don't think analytics is the end all be all, but it's a VERY useful tool, and anyone that just tosses them aside as witchcraft because it doesn't fit their narrative is just ignorant (not saying this is you or anyone else on here for the record.)

A key part in that trade is also the Habs drafting Sergachev IMO. Without him I'm pretty sure Subban would still be in MTL. He wasn't that much of a poison he wouldn't get traded away like that. Just like Hall.

Peter_Doherty wrote:I think his quote where he called him average was taken out of context. I'm just speculating here, but i read it like he said Weber was average in a GF% context, not that he's an average NHL D-man (i.e. a #4)

Really? Not sure where you get that from a quote saying “There’s nothing wrong with being average in the NHL” Pfeffer told THN “An average NHLer is worth a heck of a lot, and that’s what Shea Weber is”

Peter_Doherty wrote:Meanwhile i hold PK Subban as a top-5 D-man in the league.

Except he's not even a top 5 D amongst Canadians...so like the analytics guy, you think you know more than Hockey Canada?


Maybe it'll make more sense when analytics starts developing numbers to represent "hard to play against" and "scared of" (for Weber) and "opponents drooling over turnover opportunities they're going to get" and "teammates think it's a team game more than P.K." for Subban

I like Subban myself, but I can definitely see his shtick becoming tiresome for those that care more about the team/winning than building P.K.'s "brand"

Peter_Doherty wrote:believe that Weber and Subban are pretty close in terms of impact on the ice, yes?

No...see directly above for reasons why

nino33 wrote:Except he's not even a top 5 D amongst Canadians...so like the analytics guy, you think you know more than Hockey Canada?

Subban definitely should've been picked, HC have made a mistake there in my opinion. I can't see many factors that would indicate Weber as the better player out of the two, I personally wouldn't count anything that sounds like 'grit', 'toughness'. If we used those stats to give advantage to someone in a comparison, Zac Rinaldo would be better than a lot of guys just because some may be scared to touch him on the ice.
Also, I don't understand why people don't like the ''brand'' that P.K. has built for himself, I think that's a great thing to happen to hockey. We need more guys like him so hockey's popularity would grow. If everyone will be just a quiet guy who won't show their possibly entertaining personality, hockey as a sport will never even come close to the ''Big 3'' in North American sports.
But.. as always, that's just my two cents

ClassicSwarley wrote:Also, I don't understand why people don't like the ''brand'' that P.K. has built for himself, I think that's a great thing to happen to hockey. We need more guys like him so hockey's popularity would grow. If everyone will be just a quiet guy who won't show their possibly entertaining personality, hockey as a sport will never even come close to the ''Big 3'' in North American sports

Here's my reasoning.....

I like hockey for the game, the players come and go
I care little about the personality/storyline stuff, I care about the game
It might have been interesting years ago when you didn't get much "extra information", but I think they've long ago reached the point of saturation/overexposure (PR as king, and one big money making machine where making money is all that matters and the game itself suffers)

And I don't care if the NHL is in the "big 3" or not at all, or if it grows; IMO there's no doubt there's way to many teams/to much hockey now, and I think the game itself (which I care about) would be way better with far less teams/hockey.....IMO the game is not more entertaining; in Canada less and less people are playing hockey & less and less people are watching hockey (and hockey's gotten so expensive to play/watch it's mostly a game of the rich/elite now)

For me the entertainment has always been about the hockey, and the "personality" I liked in player's connected to how they played hockey
During recent years/decades hockey has undoubtedly gotten bigger, and it seems universally thought that the game has gotten more and more boring/less entertaining too!

I liked hockey much better as a niche sport (like EHM) and I don't want it to get "big" (like EA's NHL) as I see nothing of value in it


Not mad/ranting, just explaining my thoughts

As i said before, can't use the fact that Team Canada (or any other national team) picked player X over player Y as a 'end all be all' fact that he's better. Do you REALLY think that Kronwall 2016 is a better player then Lindholm or Klingberg? I certainly don't and i don't think it's close. For crying out loud, Team USA picked Abdelkader, Callahan, Jack Johnson and Eric Johnson over Kessel, Tyler Johnson, Faulk and Yandle/Leddy/<insert other good American D-man that is MILES better then Jack Johnson here>.

It's kind of lazy to just go 'Team Canada picked him over Subban so he must be better', atleast i think it's lazy. That's like saying that Quick was a better goalie then Lundqvist or Crawford this past season because he was nominated for Vezina, every stat available says that he really wasn't. The people in power aren't flawless, far from it.

I understand that Habs FO didn't like Subban because he is a BIG personality and they couldn't handle that (or that he's black and cocky?) and wanted to trade him because of that. Doesn't mean they made a good trade value wise.

On the Pfeffer quotes, guess i was a lazy reader. Personally i don't think Weber is an average D-man, i think however that he's not a top-15 D-man in the league anymore.

Edit: Also when it comes to Team Canada you have to weigh in that Weber has ALWAYS been great for Team Canada and his style fits their team. Personally i would have both Weber and Subban on Team Canada.

Peter_Doherty wrote:I understand that Habs FO didn't like Subban because he is a BIG personality and they couldn't handle that (or that he's black and cocky?) and wanted to trade him because of that. Doesn't mean they made a good trade value wise.

Maybe, or maybe there's no secret/conspiracy/racism/etc and it's simply that hockey is a team game, and Subban's not a team player, and his ego is the problem/too many teammates didn't like him - with neither of our views are we likely to see people stand up and "spill the beans" and validate one view or the other

I see comments on sites saying the NHL needs more "personalities" like the NBA, and I think that doesn't work in hockey.....in the NBA an entire team can be built around 2-3 guys who play almost the entire game every game, not so in hockey

I've thought of Nashville as one of the strongest "teams" and I wonder how teammates will react if/when Subban comes across as more worried about his "brand" than the team/winning

We'll see!

Yeah, i wasn't saying that i think racism is the reason, just posted it as a possibility

Time will tell, but no matter what you think about them as players, the contracts are polar opposites, having Weber signed for 4 years longer then Subban while him being 4 years older sure ain't great for Habs (Yes, it could become bad for Preds in the future aswell with the recapture).

I can understand how people think Weber is better then PK, just don't use the Team Canada thing as a reason, please

nino33 wrote:Maybe, or maybe there's no secret/conspiracy/racism/etc and it's simply that hockey is a team game, and Subban's not a team player, and his ego is the problem/too many teammates didn't like him

Subban can play as a team and sometimes tries to play for himself and causes turnovers, like lots of them. We've seen him doing plenty of them this season while he was trying to show off. I also wonder if he was trying to do too much because the Habs were so bad but that wasn't a good example at all.

I also think that choosing Pacioretty as a captain might have played a part in that trade. MTL did a year without a captain to test their players and Subban wasn't chosen. No big deal at first sight but like I said the addition of Weber adds alot of experience to the team and a very good exemple for the rookies. It also brings someone to help Pacioretty with his role as a captain. His first year wasn't that good but like everything else you need to learn a bit and I think they realised there wasn't anyone to "teach" their captain how to be a good one.

In the end despise the gigantic talent Subban has I think the Habs needed to move to improve their leadership and bring a solid veteran to the team. Also with drafting Sergachev who has a huge potential and seems more complete than Subban is, the Habs still have a futur top defensemen that will very soon be playing in the NHL. So they basically "lost nothing" in the end if you ask me.

Even though i rate Sergachev massively (had him as #4 in my draft ranking) i'd say it's tough on him to expect him to become as good as Subban. Subban is a special talent, do i think Sergachev has the same ceiling? Sure. Is it fair to think he will reach his ceiling? No, it's not.

I never said he has the same talent. Just a huge potential and more complete. Time will tell for the rest.

Not sure he has the same talent, i do rate him highly but PK is imo a special talent. Not sure i agree he's more complete either, but whatever, we're not really going anywhere here

Let's agree to disagree on how good/bad the trade was for Habs

From what I've heard he looks more stable defensively. I doubt he has the offensive skills Subban has though but I'll take someone with a better defense with a bit less of offensive talent over someone that focus more on the offense and causes too many turnovers.

Jarnkrok signs a 6-year deal with an AAV of 2m in Nashville. What the Dickens? David Poile is having a heck of an offseason. He also signed Matt Carle for 700k.

Bam_Margera wrote:Jarnkrok signs a 6-year deal with an AAV of 2m in Nashville. What the Dickens? David Poile is having a heck of an offseason. He also signed Matt Carle for 700k.

He must be laughing for getting those deals! Pure luck I guess... Or those guys have really bad agents.

Patrick Roy's apparently resigned from the Avalanche http://www.msn.com/en-ca/sports/news/pa ... ailsignout
I think it'll help Colorado, as I don't think he was ever as good a Coach as his first NHL season indicated, and his ego's just to big (I've never been a Roy fan)