EHM The Blue Line

batdad wrote:Sorry, but no sympathy. Get out there and prove to your bosses that you can handle it and are a better option. CLearly Holland and Babcock do not think they are or they would not have resigned Dan when he came to see them even after he had the deal in Philly all but done. Obviously the people that matter---who have a TRACK RECORD of NOTHING BUT GOOD DECISIONS--Feel Tatar et al have not shown they are more capable than CLeary at his point. Maybe some time this year they will...but so far NOPE.

So whine, pout all you want...go home then...who cares? Their attitudes suck if they want to cry and pout....which shows to me EXACTLY why Holland is right to bring back a guy like Cleary over them to play in the bottom 6. They do not need the whiners. ..... You know like Cody Hodgson. BYE BYE.

Have you seen Tatar play? Ever, to know where he's at or what his game is and base your opinions? How many Wings games did you watch last season, to know where Cleary's at? Are you just looking at numbers, or did you watch Cleary basically unable to skate most of last season, and then take much more abuse in the playoffs to the point where he went from fans whipping boy... to us feeling kinda' sorry for him? Did you watch Tatar in DET last season to notice that when he had the puck good things happened, even in 4th line ice time with 4th line partners? Or him dominate in the AHL playoffs? Or the few nights with DET where he was one of a small handful of guys still getting shots through to the goalie/net while everyone else seemed to forget how to get shots on?

You seem stuck in Don Cherry-land here, batdad. The land of broad statements based on stereotypes. Tatar is European, so he automatically must be lazy and have a poor attitude, right? And Cleary is Canadian, so his compete level and drive must be far superior and he never whines or decline, right?

Tatar has never shown attitude problems, him speaking up was the first sign of anything in years now, and he's known as an intense competitor on the ice and you see it when he plays, to the point when he first got NHL time a few years ago the vets on the Wings had to get him to ratchet it *down* a little. Cleary spent much of the shortened season last year coasting to be honest, and it drug his linemates down. He ratcheted it up some in the playoffs, but God... he looked downright lazy at times in the regular season. That was why when Abdelkader took over for him on the top line with Datsyuk there was suddenly jump and then scoring there. Dude, if you can't get it done playing alongside Pavel frigging Datsyuk (who can make you look great offensively AND cover for you a bit defensively)... who *can* help you get it done?

You know who whined? Dan Cleary did. Here's what happened: DET offered him a contract earlier in the summer, and he turned it down wanting more money. That better offer never came along, so he went to Philly to get something after stating he'd never come to camp on a PTO. He thought he'd get an offer or something to use for leverage with DET, got only a PTO instead from Philly, then came back to Holland and whined that he wanted a contract, not a PTO, though apparently never backed out on the Philly PTO as a "backup plan" (thus why they were irked and miffed). And Ken Holland gave in for whatever reasons. So who whined? And if Cleary was so valuable, why did he have to take those steps to finally get it done, in September?

Tim Thomas is off to Florida camp. Could mean the end for Clemmenson.

Lol at someone questioning my hockey knowledge and how much I watch of players and teams. But to answer your question. Saw Tatar in person three times in last 3 years and clearly two. Seen them on TV zillions of times. And just because someone else may have seen them more than me does not mean they have the requisite knowledge or ability to tell how good they are or what they are good at.

And finally ...I said I trust Babcock and Holland evaluating talent and team needs more than just about anyone in the NHL, the game of hockey, and well...the world. So if they think they need Cleary over the you get guys I trust that guy do. Thy have made so few mistakes...they desrve that trust...and wings fans should be giving it to them.

So if they think they need Cleary over the you get guys I trust that guy do.

One of my best phone typed sentences. Should read....if they think they need Cleary over the younger guys, I trust that they do. (Meaning Holland and Babcock think they need Cleary, so I trust the Wings need them.

It is not a Don CHerry attitdue, nor is it ME stating Cleary is better. It is me stating clearly Holland and Babcock think so...two guys whose combined hockey knowledge is greater than the entire populous of TBL.

batdad wrote:And finally ...I said I trust Babcock and Holland evaluating talent and team needs more than just about anyone in the NHL, the game of hockey, and well...the world. So if they think they need Cleary over the you get guys I trust that guy do. Thy have made so few mistakes...they desrve that trust...and wings fans should be giving it to them.

I don't mind that part. As a Wings fan I don't trust them because they have made a number of bone-headed moves in the past 5 years though, so if you're wondering why some Wings fans aren't so trusting.... that's why. Quincey, White, Colaiacovo, Huskins, Tootoo, Samuelsson, Gustavsson, Cleary... that's a decent list of mistakes right there. You can see why it's difficult for DET fans to "trust" in a GM making these moves over and over, especially now that Nill has gone to DAL and we realize there's nobody else experienced to step in instead.

Holland and Babcock are having a rough go for a reason: bad moves.

In each of the player cases you name...what else was available within te bounds of the cap, that would allow them to keep the stud core together..that would have been an improvement. Right...nothing.

And as to not having success...lol...they provided the best challenge the Stanley Cup champs had last season.

As for Nill...it is way to early to think his thought pattern has been completely disregarded by Holland and Babcock or is irrelevant to what they think about their players and lineup. They know what Nill's thoughts are on the team from as recently as just before the draft. And have those thoughts in mind.

Really ..they are a successful amazing franchise with great leadership on and off the ice. The results back them 100% and I don't believe that the mistakes you list were mistakes...just what was best available in their range to bring in.

Even if they were mistakes...they are a whole lot fewer than basically any team has made.

Fans of a specific team are more critical of their own management and players of any team or they are fanboys... There is no in between. Or very few. Look at Hawk fans...win the cup and still shredding Bowman and Q. Boston the same although is much more fanboy (meaning team can do zero wrong)

Canucks fans rotate on an hourly basis from fanboy to hater.

All in all Detroit is one if if not the best managed teams in the league. And also the same can be said for evaluating what they have, what they need, and what can fit in and help them

A vet like Cleary who has been there and knows and plays his role is alot more valuable than many think. He may have thought his role was different last year than what it is now...and will play accordingly. The other untested young guys will not be able to adjust to the smaller roles as they are obviously (in the very often correct opinions of Babcock and Holland et al) not capable of playing the same role as Cleary and make the contributions they need in that role.

Nothing stopping them from beating him (or anyone else on the roster) out for a job.

So don't whine about one guy getting a deal...shut up compete and take a job from someone else, or pout and go home.

Primis wrote:Tim Thomas is off to Florida camp. Could mean the end for Clemmenson.

just because hes in camp doesnt mean he will sign with them. I think he will either sign some where else or go to the ahl to be a starter and prove he can play like 10 or more games.

Also CLemmensen is out for about 3 weeks after undergoing a minor procedure on a knee on Sep 8. So another 2 weeks...takes them through ex season.

I'm curious about what kind of shape Thomas showed up in. I had heard a lot of rumors that he had blown up like a balloon while hiding out in his bunker.

Man the Oilers have some talent and skill. Too bad they are all going to drop like flies if they do not go out and get someone to protect the talented skill players. Taylor Hall almost obliterated last night (one of the 10 hits on him was brutally illegal--Weise but Alberts blew him up 2x and a few others as well), Darnell Nurse was crunched constantly, including by Hunter Shinkaruk (kid has some skill and has been working VERY hard..which is totally in contrast to his reputation of being soft).

Gagner--broken jaw from careless high stick by Kassian (however was obliterated by a few guys with clean checks)

Nugent-Hopkins career so far is glass like...although MacT is right...kid will be a star.

Eberle--manhandled on at least 4 occasions by Canucks.

Each and every team is going to come in and PUNISH the Oilers unless they get out and do something about their toughness and physical abilities. Mike BRown, Ben *broken head* Eager and Jones are not going to be enough. Oilers need at least 2 big strong oxes. One who is a nuclear deterrent to what the CAnucks brought, and one who is a nasty piece of business but can play a bit. On the blueline they need something to.

They are going to get punished punished punished.

BTW--Weise hit was brutal, should get a game or two but when Mike BRown came after him Weise stood up and at least had a draw in the fight. So...no chicken CAnuck things there. Kassian would have stood up as well....but noone came after him as they were ascared.

batdad wrote:Each and every team is going to come in and PUNISH the Oilers unless they get out and do something about their toughness and physical abilities.

The 07-08 and 08-09 Red Wings and Penguins all seemed to do just fine with a skilled lineup that didn't have much toughness present.

Toughness is wildly overrated. It's why the Leafs still have yet to win anything of any consequence in recent memory. You can win with it, or without it. But it's not actually integral to winning, there's no guarantee with it.

For instance, you know what's better than physical play? Getting your opponents to try to rough you up, take penalties, and then having a PP that's 25-30% to make them pay. It's all about possession and a lethal PP then.

Aaron Downey played 56 games for that team. Maltby, Draper, Chelios, Kronwall, Drake, Lilja (LOL)...that team was pretty darn tough and gritty as a group. A lot more so than the very babyfaced Oilers--where ALL of their top 9 forwards under 200 lbs. )

and remember the weights listed are from the official site...they are always pushed up for the lighter guys a fair bit

That is a whole lot different than the 07-08 Wings and the 08-09 Penguins.

Oilers top 9

Gagner 199
Hall 195
Hemsky 186
Perron 205
Smyth 192
Yakupov 184
Nugent-Hopkins 185
Eberle 184
Some other guy and unless it is Eager....not very big.

Oiler d-men

Andrew Ference 189
Grebeshkov 209
J Shultz 185
N Shultz 203
Smid 207
Petry 200

Age and maturity is a factor in needing to be protected. Athough the Wings were not HUGE by any matter ...they were solid. Guys like Holmstrom and Zetterberg, Cleary and Franzen....Draper and Maltby. A whole lot more SOLID than the young kids the Oilers have.

Penguins top 9 included guys like *and they made a clear decision to get bigger boys during the year--Guerin, Boucher, Whitney came in.
Jordan Staal 209 lbs, Bill Guerin 220 lbs, the Belfour Matt Cooke at 5-3 and 205...the likes of Orpik, Hal Gill, Mark Eaton, Scuderi, Ryan Whitney and Boucher on the blue line. Even Crosby was 200 lbs and Dupuis 205.

Red Wings were not huge, but had some very very physically solid players---strong and oxe like. Penguins did as well.....and they were actually quite big based on blue line.

Oilers--not so much. Small, and fragile young guys. Not big and strong and fully grown men.

Don't get me wrong--I WANT THE OILERS to be great. I love the flash and dash that team can bring. But man...if the Canucks who dressed a lineup full of prospects and young guys---No Sedins, Burrows, Kesler, Bieksa, Booth, Hamhuis...can go in and punish the top 3 oiler lines (all guys I listed above same RNH played)...

Each and every team is going to come in and pound the daylights out of them. No where near the same as the two teams you mentioned.



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Primis
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For instance, you know what's better than physical play? Getting your opponents to try to rough you up, take penalties, and then having a PP that's 25-30% to make them pay. It's all about possession and a lethal PP then.

Sure...if the goal is not to win the Stanley Cup. You have to be able to physically withstand the punishment of the NHL playoffs. As mentioned the Wings were veteran and could, the Pens were strong and could (big blueline). VANCOUVER has proven--soft does not work....Boston beat them up...

No way Edmonton roster as it stands now can grind out the playoffs. Fragile team as not physically strong.

Aaron Downey also did not dress a single game for the playoffs IIRC.

You know what "toughness" gets you?

That joke in TOR-BUF tonight. It gets you FA signing Clarkson leaving the bench and now gone 10 games at least, your #1 goalies risking getting hurt for a laughable fight, and guys like John Scott getting NHL contracts despite having *no* hockey skills whatsoever so he can go after Kessel (W-T-F_ *was* his plan there anyways?).

Neither TOR or BUF are teams going anywhere worthwhile this season. Coincidence? Nope, none at all.

When DET was winning Cups it's because their PP was LETHAL. Take a bad penalty? Boom, back of the net, you payed. Check their PP numbers for those years.

The *only* team in recent memory to use Tough to win a Cup was the Ducks. The mantra of that team was "They can't and won't call ALL the penalties". And they did so with controversy enough that the league addressed exactly that the next season, and began proving that idea wrong by calling more penalties in general to not let it happen again.

EDM doesn't need to get bigger or tougher. They need to mature a bit and control more of the puck and game though (they're still so young, geeez. Look at the ages of the Oilers you listed). Start making teams pay with your PP, let them have the puck a bit less at ES, and the rest sorts itself out. If your PP doesn't instill fear in anyone though they'll feel free to take liberties.

1. Got to be alive to get to playoffs. Downey helped that. But again the age experience and toughness of the 07-08 wings was much different than the Oilers.

2. That is stupidity. Not toughness. Totally different animal in Toronto -Buffalo last night. Scott is a moron. But so is Kessel and apparently Clarkson.

3. Cough. Boston. Cough.

4. Cough McIntyre. Cough.

Again you are presenting thoughts that the experts (or at least guys who got jobs I. The top pro league in the world...totally disagree with). Clearly.

Cheap shots happen less because of team toughness. Not saying goonery and brain dead morons like Scott are needed.

You so downplay the roles that guys like McArty, Kocur, Downey, play for teams. They are extremely important...not to be morons like Scott is, but to keep the other teams from taking liberties. It does not always work, but it works more ofen than not. Younger skilled teams who are not all built like Messier, Howe have proven they need his help.

If any organization knows this...it's the Oilers. That young 80s team was not big outside of the Moose in its top6. But the made sure filled out the roster with guys who were big and strong. Semenko Lumley, Fogolin, Huddy.

It's the youth of the skilled oilers that needs the toughness. McIntyre is probably not the answer but he was what they could get quickly. He will help Eager and the youth.

batdad wrote:You so downplay the roles that guys like McArty, Kocur, Downey, play for teams. They are extremely important...not to be morons like Scott is, but to keep the other teams from taking liberties. It does not always work, but it works more ofen than not. Younger skilled teams who are not all built like Messier, Howe have proven they need his help.

Kocur and Probert played those roles on teams that ultimately never got to the promised land, in a totally different era. Mostly on bad Wing teams.

McCarty is a power forward and a guy that could wear the "A" even as a leader. He could score, and do other things. Ask Philly 'bout that. He was a fairly unique player, in a unique situation, and I don't think or know if he could have succeeded in any other org.

Downey... I loved Downey. I wish DET had kept him another season. Not because he fought, but because he did a lot of other things too. He was a good, energetic 4th liner who wouldn't take dumb penalties. He coaches now IIRC, he's a pretty smart dude. That's a key: smart. McCarty doesn't get credit for enough smarts too, he picked his moments and times, and otherwise could restrain himself. DET's had some tougher guys that can play the game too in the past like a Darryl Bootland. Booter could fight and stand up for guys... he also has a temper and does dumb things though, so he never got more than a cup of coffee in DET. You can't keep a guy around who takes bad/dumb penalties.

The Wings brought in Brad May one season a few years back. It did *nothing* to "keep the flies off" as Babcock likes to say, and May was a liability elsewhere on the ice, and was relegated to the press box.

The Wings brought in Tootoo last season. He has brought very little, if anything, and is looking at being odd man out on a roster with too much young talent. On a club like NAS with no depth I suppose he can make a place and name, but on an actual contender he just has no role or point.

DET's past two "bad boys" to get suspended now? Brendan Smith (not a tough, not really dirty either, and young) and now Pulkkinen (about as far form a dirty or tough as you can get).

A guy like Macintyre SEEMS like a good idea at the time, but he's not going to keep up with anyone else, not bring anything else to the table, and I suspect he will be a healthy scratch most of the time for EDM. Again, those 1980's EDM teams were in a different era too, so they really aren't relevant to the conversation. Times and the game have changed too much from then, that's 30 years ago.

You gotta' be able to play, you just gotta'. Too many injuries, too much money, not enough roster spots to waste.

Primis wrote:DET's past two "bad boys" to get suspended now? Brendan Smith (not a tough, not really dirty either, and young) and now Pulkkinen (about as far form a dirty or tough as you can

I was really surprised one morning when I read that Pulkkinen got a major. He usually takes a 2min penalty every second game.

AS I said McIntyre is a reaction. What they could get right now to help them protect the young guys. They will still need and will still be seraching for more permanent assistance in this area. Past Oil Management made a mistake in assuming the league would go to skill skill skill and speed. THat disappears come playoff time and grind it out comes into play. Vancouver, Washington, San Jose, Ottawa have all made this mistake as well in the past. Detroit has always been big and strong enough to compete as have Chicago, Los Angeles and Pittsburgh...in the tough playoff environment...with the likes of Boston.

Others who have success in reg season but not playoffs-- went to far skill based.

St Louis Blues are the next coming of the Bruins.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nhl--no-go ... 19777.html

Cotsonika makes a good point at the end: If you're a good enough, skilled enough team.... an opponent can't really afford to dress an enforcer against you, so there is your defense against them.


STL is not the next Bruins. STL is a lot of talk, not much else. Trust me, as someone who has been in their division and seen how they go. They have a lot of paper tigers there in St. Louis. When anyone pushes back though they completely melt down and stop playing, it's laughable almost. Remember when DET got to Toews and he had his meltdown in the playoffs this last year? Backes has that happen to him ALL THE TIME... and he's their team leader, their "captain". STL also doesn't have the skill players BOS has. No Bergeron, or Savard (RIP), or Krejci, or now Eriksson.

1. Media people sayin things about enforcers and not able to dress them against skill teams. Lol. Media is looking to a story not the reality of what a pro coach is looking to.

2. I will say this again. Guys like McIntyre are not the answer. They are quick fixes for the time being until teams can make more long run moves to address team toughness with guys that can play. It's why big boys like Clowe and Clarkson and Z Kassian and Bertuzzi ALWAYS get paid. Tough and can play. Even if not scoring.

3. Backers is young. People say the same about Kesler and it's true...but each year as the mature it gets better. Same for a guy like Clarkson(in spite of his recent mistake) and with one day exception Bertuzzi.

The size meanness and strength is a necessity. Not necessarily just a fighter but those guys fill gaps til the problem the Oilers have can be addressed.

Oh and and the Blues have massive skill...I mean they have LApierre and Roy. Lol.

Blues I should have said ...have potential to be next Bruins that defense they have is pretty dang solid and they have 3 real solid lines with addition of Morrow. (Btw--when people were saying he was done last year he was playing with a cracked kneecap.)


Blues will play solid physical hockey and their skill is pretty strong. Question for them is if goalies can do what they need to.

batdad wrote:1. Media people sayin things about enforcers and not able to dress them against skill teams. Lol. Media is looking to a story not the reality of what a pro coach is looking to.

Cotsonika was a beat writer for the Red Wings during all their recent Cups. He has a lot of cred when it comes to talking about the Wings org and winning.

Ken Holland is a big believer in skill negating tough guys. He has flat-out said so. He's the one IIRC who coined the "PP as your enforcer" phrase even. If you believe he's capable and very-much knows what he's doing, then there's obviously merit to the concept. It's not just the media though, Ken Holland himself kinda' spurred on the whole talk on this some years ago by speaking openly about it.

I don't know about Babcock. I think he'd prefer a tough guy on roster still to be honest but has seen the Wings do what they do, and so goes along with it and trusts in the guys and Holland. I get the feeling he'd prefer Ericsson, Bertuzzi, Franzen, Smith, and Abdelkader not fight though as they all play other roles and purposes too. He may have been instrumental in getting Holland to go after Tootoo.

No beat reporter has a lot of credibility when it comes to their knowledge of hockey. They can definitely regurgitate what the GM and COach say...but if they actually KNEW what to do and how things REALLY worked...they would be a coach and GM. For instance...Tony Gallagher has alot of credibility in Vancouver with the general populous. However...what he actually understands as to how it works as a GM-Coach is pretty minimal. Point being...he is a reporter and can file his OPINIONS about what the team should be doing....but he does not really see what they can and cannot do.

Right now...Gallagher is saying the Canucks MUST go out and get a 3rd line centre. But..he has no clue as to what that would cost the team...in terms of CAP and in terms of personnel. It may or may not make sense to do so....

PP can be your enforcer...as long as your guys are healthy. In Edmonton's case--this is clearly the issue. They could and are dropping like flies due to taking a beating...SUre long term McIntyre and a 1 dimensional tough guy is not the answer...but you have to stop the bleeding period.

PP are wonderful...save for the fact that no matter who has what...referees tend to even it up, and the other team gets PP chances no matter what you do.

1 dimensional players are a quick fix for a long term problem, and it only works for so long. The Oilers know that and are still on the hunt to make the team bigger and stronger...but what they have to give up to get what they need comes into play....and that makes it harder to do.

Holland went after Tootoo because Detroit needed a Adam Oates disturber who would bang and crash and work his ass off. He is not paid to score. He is paid to grind it out. And he does the best he can with what he is. He is not a big guy...and not a skill player. Just needed someone to do what he does.

anyway...enough about this...if you could actually understand I was not saying we need goons .... and that each team needs big physical players as well as the skill and skaters we would be done. But you won't...as always...get what I am saying. You want to rely on what a reporter says about the game of hockey...fine by me. But I do not.

batdad wrote:PP are wonderful...save for the fact that no matter who has what...referees tend to even it up, and the other team gets PP chances no matter what you do.

Thus why you need to make your chances count more, and be better than everyone else. Because even if a ref evens it up, you need to make them pay more than they can make you pay. If a ref gives each team 4 PP's and you score on two while the other team only scores on one, you've forced them to find a way to score another Even Strength goal to make up for that. That's hard to do in this league again (it wasn't admittedly for a while) with the current lower scoring. Those may be the only goals anyone scores in the game for a 2-1 final.

batdad wrote:anyway...enough about this...if you could actually understand I was not saying we need goons .... and that each team needs big physical players as well as the skill and skaters we would be done. But you won't...as always...get what I am saying. You want to rely on what a reporter says about the game of hockey...fine by me. But I do not.

No offense but... instead I'm supposed to rely on the word of a fan of a team that has never, ever, won anything as to what it takes to win in the NHL currently? I'll take the word of the guy who's been around the Wings and has spoken extensively with Ken Holland. Holland is not perfect and makes his share of absolutely boneheaded mistakes too, but I think that's the better bet because he has rings to prove the philosophy works and that fighting is not integral.

I don't know who has rings to prove "tough guys" help win Cups in this day and age. Fighting is completely overrated and unimportant to the overall picture and goal.

Yay. Last word. But I bet there is a response to this.

batdad wrote:Yay. Last word. But I bet there is a response to this.

Of course there is.

Not because of "last word", but I've honestly been bored waiting for the season to start. And until it does I'm going nuts waiting...

I fully expect a response to this too. Unless you're taking this whole spirited debate personally or something.

Denis Brodeur, father of Martin has passed away today. He was well known here as an hockey photographer.