EHM The Blue Line

Sabresfan wrote:reading all of the posts over on the ootp forum and then reading all of the responses on this forum i am still torn as to if i wanna get the game or not.. my main thing is

1) i think the roster camp need to be more then 23 players
2) dont have the option to move teams around in divisions..
3) I know its 25% off right now but when u think about it after the convertaion that is still almost 50 Cnd for a game like just think of what it will cost after that discount isnt around anymore do i wait until more patches come out and when the price drops if it does?

I bought the game but I'm waiting for a few patches to really sink my teeth into it. They did add some features in the first patch so it's possible they'll address the complaints about training camp.

As far as sales go, the last version of FHM went on sale during the NHL playoffs. I think their baseball game goes on sale during the MLB all-star break? They might have a playoff sale as well. It's a good bet FHM will be on sale again somewhere down the line. Not sure if you'll get more than 25% off though.

I've played quite a lot, but I miss the immersion that EHM brings. It sucks you more into the game then FHM. I'm also not sure about the rosters, some of the players seem to have really high skills, but they don't perform. Also I miss setting real tactics (forechecking, neutral zone, positioning system etc.).

I have to think hard to find one thing that FHM is better in then EHM...

Well, for starters, a full blown real time editor....

julius wrote:Well, for starters, a full blown real time editor....

I don't need that, I'm just playing the TBL rosters for the last 5 years and happy with that. I mean... I tend to think that people spending loads of time on rosters are better when it comes to creating a good roster then myself.

I think FHM is more like a sandbox, where EHM is less sandbox, but has more storytelling to it.

The editing capabilities in FHM are extremely good for tweaking a saved game etc. I know in the past I've been bothered when a big trade has happened in real life when I'm a couple of days into a new saved game (do I continue my game or start a new one with the trade implemented?...). The FHM in-game editing will be really useful for this.

However, the FHM in-game editing is not really designed for large-scale DB editing as you have to use the game UI to navigate around rather than a dedicated editor UI. More importantly, and as I understand it, using a saved game from which to start a new game means you lose all of the randomly generated attributes which are generated when creating a saved game from a DB. Also, I don't think you can edit league structures and rules at game start-up (you have to wait until around July at the end of season 1).

I agree that a dedicated editor, with sortable search functions and mass editing capability, both pre-game (database) and real-time, wins first prize. I have only seen this type of feature very rarely in sports management games. In fact, one of the best examples of this was the old Wayne Gretzky Hockey Simulator 2 series about 25 years ago which was a great game, although not without other shortcomings. I understand that the EHM Updater provides some mass editing capabilities, but it isn't real time. It also seems to require the importing of spreadsheets, some facility with using them, and then the whole package needs to be converted from EHM 2007 to EHM Early Access. The process is an awkward one and you only get one shot at the changes you want to see in your 30 team league (1200+ players with farm teams) or you scrap your league and start over. The NHL Assistant has been a wonderful addition (being able to edit names is sorely missed) but it falls well short of the ease and capabilities of the FHM built -in editor. Archie, I understand that you have been developing an editor for EHM EA and I await that with considerable anticipation. As someone who edits players/teams extensively (I use the NHL as the basis for my 32 team custom league) right now this represents the biggest advantage that FHM offers over the EHM series in my view. Incidentally, the biggest advantage that EHM has over FHM is the 2D game display. I like it much better than the FHM game day experience. Just my 2 cents...

Ideally the course for FHM would be a product similar to OOTP with its robust, real-time editing features. Compared to even earlier versions of OOTP, FHM is sorely lacking, but hopefully subsequent versions will add things.

Right now I'm mostly banking on the EHM:EA DB and savegame editors being robust enough to use with EHM as I think EHM is way more advanced in terms of both hockey world simulating and the "storytelling" aspects, plus I like the EHM UI a bit more.

julius wrote:I agree that a dedicated editor, with sortable search functions and mass editing capability, both pre-game (database) and real-time, wins first prize. I have only seen this type of feature very rarely in sports management games. In fact, one of the best examples of this was the old Wayne Gretzky Hockey Simulator 2 series about 25 years ago which was a great game, although not without other shortcomings.

That wasn't really what I meant. I just meant that the UI in FHM is designed as a game UI rather than an editor UI and so you have to flick through various in-game screens to edit the various data (putting aside the various other limitations I mentioned). If you look at the Pre-Game Editor UI, for instance, it's set out as an editor with tabs for each editabable section and is quick and easy to edit stuff (i.e. you don't have to flick through unrelated screens). Hence why FHM is rather awkward as a full-blown DB editor. Hopefully we'll see a pre-game editor for FHM at some point as that'll really open up the possibility for proper user-made DBs.

julius wrote:I understand that the EHM Updater provides some mass editing capabilities, but it isn't real time. It also seems to require the importing of spreadsheets, some facility with using them, and then the whole package needs to be converted from EHM 2007 to EHM Early Access. The process is an awkward one and you only get one shot at the changes you want to see in your 30 team league (1200+ players with farm teams) or you scrap your league and start over.

I'm going slightly OT, but that's not really right. I agree it's fairly limited right now as you cannot edit everything. But I'm not sure it's really awkward (and it sounds like you've never tried the Updater). All you do is list the changes in a spreadsheet and import it into the DB (I'm not totally clear what real-time means). You certainly don't get one shot - the Updater allows you to delete created data, etc just like the in the Pre-Game Editor.

Really the Updater is intended as a collaborative tool in that we can have multiple researchers doing their own work on the DB at the same time (rather than having to take individual turns on the DB). It's a very useful function for large roster projects like the TBL Rosters, but I don't think it's really a must-have for any FHM editor right now (and indeed for as long as the game remains actively developed).

zbguy wrote:Ideally the course for FHM would be a product similar to OOTP with its robust, real-time editing features. Compared to even earlier versions of OOTP, FHM is sorely lacking, but hopefully subsequent versions will add things.

Right now I'm mostly banking on the EHM:EA DB and savegame editors being robust enough to use with EHM as I think EHM is way more advanced in terms of both hockey world simulating and the "storytelling" aspects, plus I like the EHM UI a bit more.

For me, those are two of the main things in which EHM is more polished than FHM right now. But there are several things where I think FHM is actually more advanced than EHM. FHM is catching up really quickly IMO. If EHM becomes fully developed again then we'll be really spoilt for choice.

If you asked me 6 months ago whether I expected FHM to be a decent game then I'd have probably have been doubtful. However, the OOTP have really done themselves proud and the game really is very good for a second version. There are of course issues here and there - but that is similarly the case with EHM too.

I wish someone was doing a FHM series like WordTheSpace did with EHM, I loved seeing the game and he actually had good quality so you were able to concentrate on the game instead of the constant aquarium sound. I've seen maybe 2-3 good EHM series but it really isn't that popular on Youtube yet, I haven't sen an FHM2 series yet though

axepig wrote:I wish someone was doing a FHM series like WordTheSpace did with EHM, I loved seeing the game and he actually had good quality so you were able to concentrate on the game instead of the constant aquarium sound. I've seen maybe 2-3 good EHM series but it really isn't that popular on Youtube yet, I haven't sen an FHM2 series yet though

Here's a start. Found it ealier today

https://youtu.be/83AH-M6lPL4

Okay, so I'm a lurker and not much of a poster/contributor, but I am a very longtime player of EHM so I thought I would throw in my experiences with FHM2.

First off, I never played FHM1 so cannot speak to the bad feelings that I know many folks have about that...I am a fairly recent player of OOTP, however (past couple of years), so I had hopes for FHM2. I knew the game had some teething issues when I bought it on Steam, but I really want to support having another hockey sim on the market. Buying the game was as much an investment in the future for me as anything else.

Here are some basic thoughts:

1) Looks - the interface is clean and simple, and the pop-ups for basic player info a nice addition. There are some surprising elements missing, however, especially given the presence and utility of those elements in OOTP (depth charts and minor league systems, I'm looking at you). I will agree there is an element of clickiness to the interface, but not to the point of being truly obnoxious. I think they are on track with this part of the game as the basis for a very nice display/UI is there, but it is going to take some work and updates to get it just right.

2) League/Team Detail - there are some problems here. Probably just lack of time or missed details, but still annoying. Things like teams in an organization being in the wrong leagues/levels (the Bakersfield Condors are shown in the AHL not the correct ECHL, as an example) give a certain qualm about the accuracy of other details. I know this will get better with updates, but I thought I would mention it. I have not yet tried the international teams to know if they got the roster rules correct...specifically, I'm wondering about the more complicated league roster systems like the DEL. Also, the lack of logos/uniforms for the installed teams is annoying. If a game has a license to use the actual (copyrighted) team names, then I fully expect it to use logos and images. At least use basic ones. I know I can probably find an image pack (although FHM2 is new enough that I am not positive), but the game should not put that work on me as the customer.

3) Bugs - I simmed two seasons as coach/GM in the WHL to get a feel for things. The first season (2015-16) never actually ended....the playoffs happened, then the drafts, then free agency, but the season never actually ended. When I played the 2016-17 season, all of the stats/notes/results were rolled into 2015-16. I did not figure this out until the 16-17 regular season ended and the playoffs never took place. I simmed all the way to June 15th just to be sure. Nope, no playoffs. No 2016-17 stats. No nothing. I was annoyed. And drunk. That didn't end well.

4) Weirdness - it has been mentioned by others on the OOTP boards, but the "management sim" side of the game is kinda nutty. Coaches get fired purely at random, as far as I can tell. Either that, or there is a real problem with criminal/moral/personal issues behind the scenes that the game doesn't want to mention in the firing notice. In the second season of the WHL game I mentioned above, the Hitmen were in first in the WHL by a mile, 37-7 at the time. Not bad, probably time for a bonus for the coach/GM. Then they lost to the second place team (me). The next day the Hitmen cleaned house. Unfortunately that was not a one-time event - the same thing happened a couple of game-weeks later, with Victoria. They were in a solid third place in the league, only six or eight points behind me. They lost a close game to me, and yup, the next day they cleaned house, too. It seemed like every single team fired their coach every single season. It was funny at first, then it just got annoying.

5) Scouting & Player Training - I think they have a good take here. There is enough granularity to go nuts with, or you can leave it to your assistant to handle. The scouting system bears a certain resemblance to EHM in that you assign guys to various regions and tasks, and those scouts have reputations & varying skill levels at evaluation potential and current skill. I will say, I would like a hybrid model with OOTP's vastly simplified scouting system (where you just hire one Scouting Directing to handle everything), but that is a personal thing not a complaint. The training system has options that are nice, and does kinda bear a resemblance to EHM's practice system (without the fatigue element).

6) Injuries - handled well, I think, and fairly realistically. It does seem injuries only happen in games. I never saw one at any other time (practice, etc...). I would be nice to incorporate that element into the game...some people hate OOTP's "storylines", but I think the injuries & events from that system would be add some nice depth to FHM2.

7) Tactical/Detailed Hockey Coaching - the game is designed more for setting the various options and directives, and then simming games rather than watching them play in real time and making in-game adjustments. Since most of the time I like to play sports sims as GM-sims, that is fine with me, but for those looking for detailed coaching sims I do think that element is a bit light.

8) Overall Impression - I like the direction the game is going and I think they have the basis for a good product here, but it will take some time to get it right. I do not regret buying the game--as I said earlier, I want to support having another hockey sim, and I want to reward OOTP Developments for the work they have done--but at this point, FHM2 is not quite "there" yet. I will keep tinkering and toying, but it is not yet ready to make a commitment to. As far as setting up and running on a "career" game/sim, I will still focus on my guy working his way up the GM ladder in EHM.

Thanks for the feedback, see my answers below.

Aubrey wrote: 1) Looks - the interface is clean and simple, and the pop-ups for basic player info a nice addition. There are some surprising elements missing, however, especially given the presence and utility of those elements in OOTP (depth charts and minor league systems, I'm looking at you). I will agree there is an element of clickiness to the interface, but not to the point of being truly obnoxious. I think they are on track with this part of the game as the basis for a very nice display/UI is there, but it is going to take some work and updates to get it just right.

We go for our own GUI system in FHM and do not copy the one for OOTP or other games. Overall the new GUI seems to receive good feedback but of course you are right and we can improve it in many areas. And yes, we will always look into e.g. OOTP and see what screens might be a good idea. A few things already found the way into FHM 2 (e.g. the player popup or award icons) and we will continue to look what would fit well into FHM.

Aubrey wrote:2) League/Team Detail - there are some problems here. Probably just lack of time or missed details, but still annoying. Things like teams in an organization being in the wrong leagues/levels (the Bakersfield Condors are shown in the AHL not the correct ECHL, as an example) give a certain qualm about the accuracy of other details. I know this will get better with updates, but I thought I would mention it. I have not yet tried the international teams to know if they got the roster rules correct...specifically, I'm wondering about the more complicated league roster systems like the DEL. Also, the lack of logos/uniforms for the installed teams is annoying. If a game has a license to use the actual (copyrighted) team names, then I fully expect it to use logos and images. At least use basic ones. I know I can probably find an image pack (although FHM2 is new enough that I am not positive), but the game should not put that work on me as the customer.

Bakersfield plays in the AHL now, so we got that right. See e.g. here: http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ho ... /22537545/

For European Leagues and the rules: we now that they are not the strongest point in FHM and believe me, it is something I hate myself. It will be a major focus point for us during further FHM 2 and version 3 development.

Regarding logos, we are not allowed to use logos and/or images, thats why they are not present. Go over to our board and you should find really nice graphic packs there.

Aubrey wrote:3) Bugs - I simmed two seasons as coach/GM in the WHL to get a feel for things. The first season (2015-16) never actually ended....the playoffs happened, then the drafts, then free agency, but the season never actually ended. When I played the 2016-17 season, all of the stats/notes/results were rolled into 2015-16. I did not figure this out until the 16-17 regular season ended and the playoffs never took place. I simmed all the way to June 15th just to be sure. Nope, no playoffs. No 2016-17 stats. No nothing. I was annoyed. And drunk. That didn't end well.

I think you posted this on our board already and Jeff asked for a save? That should of course not happen, so when we get your save we can look into it and make ur t ix whatever goes wrong.

Aubrey wrote:4) Weirdness - it has been mentioned by others on the OOTP boards, but the "management sim" side of the game is kinda nutty. Coaches get fired purely at random, as far as I can tell. Either that, or there is a real problem with criminal/moral/personal issues behind the scenes that the game doesn't want to mention in the firing notice. In the second season of the WHL game I mentioned above, the Hitmen were in first in the WHL by a mile, 37-7 at the time. Not bad, probably time for a bonus for the coach/GM. Then they lost to the second place team (me). The next day the Hitmen cleaned house. Unfortunately that was not a one-time event - the same thing happened a couple of game-weeks later, with Victoria. They were in a solid third place in the league, only six or eight points behind me. They lost a close game to me, and yup, the next day they cleaned house, too. It seemed like every single team fired their coach every single season. It was funny at first, then it just got annoying.

This point is a bit like the one about European Leagues: the immersion factor when playing a modern game is the second major focus for us going forward.

Aubrey wrote:5) Scouting & Player Training - I think they have a good take here. There is enough granularity to go nuts with, or you can leave it to your assistant to handle. The scouting system bears a certain resemblance to EHM in that you assign guys to various regions and tasks, and those scouts have reputations & varying skill levels at evaluation potential and current skill. I will say, I would like a hybrid model with OOTP's vastly simplified scouting system (where you just hire one Scouting Directing to handle everything), but that is a personal thing not a complaint. The training system has options that are nice, and does kinda bear a resemblance to EHM's practice system (without the fatigue element).

Glad you like it. As always, we look for feedback to improve it further.

Aubrey wrote:6) Injuries - handled well, I think, and fairly realistically. It does seem injuries only happen in games. I never saw one at any other time (practice, etc...). I would be nice to incorporate that element into the game...some people hate OOTP's "storylines", but I think the injuries & events from that system would be add some nice depth to FHM2.

We have practice injuries as well but no storylines. That is something we would like to "steal" from OOTP at some point.

"Bakersfield plays in the AHL now, so we got that right. See e.g. here: http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ho ... /22537545/"

Shouldn't I get memos on these things? That's what I get for slacking in my reading!

Thanks for the reply Sebastian - I'll head to the OOTP board and upload a save for Jeff

Are the tactics better than EHM: EA?

I stopped playing EHM once I figured out the tactics (with help) and could just blow people out which got old real quick.

Aubrey wrote: Also, the lack of logos/uniforms for the installed teams is annoying. If a game has a license to use the actual (copyrighted) team names, then I fully expect it to use logos and images. At least use basic ones. I know I can probably find an image pack (although FHM2 is new enough that I am not positive), but the game should not put that work on me as the customer.

Just check the Mods-Subforum and you´ll see that you can get basically everything you can dream of over there, incl....

Historical Jerseys from 1931 on, complete historical logo-pack, just about everything for modern day play (jerseys, logos, backgrounds) for every relevant league and in case you want something specific, just post your wish and i´m sure one of the great guys will create it for you.

Is the CHL playable in this game?

MWE wrote:Is the CHL playable in this game?

Yes, the OHL, QMJHL and WHL are each playable in game. IIRC the Memorial Cup is there too.

By the way, I wrote a review of FHM 2 here: http://gmgames.org/franchise-hockey-man ... -2/review/

I think your countrymate means the Champions Hockey League, which is not playable unfortunately.

Alessandro wrote:I think your countrymate means the Champions Hockey League, which is not playable unfortunately.

Aha of course! Thanks Alessandro.

Alessandro wrote:I think your countrymate means the Champions Hockey League, which is not playable unfortunately.

That's what I meant sorry should have explained better.

FHM was complete garbage and judging by how they delete forum posts on steam on FHM2 forums, I take it FHM2 sucks as well, they changed strategy this time around, heavy emphasis on propaganda to promote and stifle criticism of FHM2.

dejaqwho wrote:FHM was complete garbage and judging by how they delete forum posts on steam on FHM2 forums, I take it FHM2 sucks as well, they changed strategy this time around, heavy emphasis on propaganda to promote and stifle criticism of FHM2.

never read a dumber and more unwarranted comment before - for sure you can come up with proof for your allegations?

Looking at your posting history (http://www.ehmtheblueline.com/forums/se ... 6&sr=posts) you're obviously not very interested in productive criticism.

Let's keep this civil gentlemen. I opened this thread to get opinions from people on the game without

1. comparing it to EHM
2. getting nasty about anyone and how they do things.

So...comments on FHM Forums are not needed. People can make up their own minds about the game from reading what people have posted re bugs, and how it works in diferent areas. We do not need to have posts about how the forums work or don't work, how they are marketing the game, and how people who make comments are not smart.

From what I have seen, the posting on OOTP and here is dying down. It does not seem to be giving

a. a high rating for greatness
b. a low rating for suckiness

THe game is just that////a game on the market that is a decent game.
At this time I have not bought it, and I am unlikely too.

But keep to discussing the game, not the stuff around it please.

Sorry, Batdad, but I do need to respond that allegation. I've banned a total of two people from the FHM2 Steam forums: one was someone who announced they'd pirated the game and said where they got it, the other was our friend dejaqwho here, who made it clear he wasn't going to play the game but still insisted on trolling the regular forum users by trying to bait them into angry responses with increasingly provocative (and ridiculous) comments. He did the same with the FHM2014 forum, so I assume we'll be having a third go-round with FHM3 if he hasn't learned to discuss things in a more civil manner by then.