EHM The Blue Line

Don't know if attributes are changed or not, but for sure i won't download it if they've been changed, even if i'd like unfaked names and real arenas names.

ElQuapo wrote:Are you guys sure they have changed attributes? As far as I understood, the first version just released has only unfaked the names, while the next version will include an update (move players around) and maybe change attributes.

But I could be wrong

That's the problem: They just won't tell us what they have and haven't done. From previous experience, they have always changed attributes in every release. Minstrel sent an e-mail to Javs asking what they'd done this time around and they never replied.

That just seems fishy to me. Why be so protective of what you've changed? Wouldn't you want everyone to know about all your hard work? For that reason alone, I will live just fine with faked names and arenas.

Those who do use it, I'd be interested in what changes, other than names, you notice.

I agree with u guys in that point.

Iam really interested in an unfaking database because I like to see real player names, but I dont would like to see any player attributes changed....

...and I agree with noctambulist that I dont understand why they dont wanna say what exactly they have changed....dont understand it.

Well, I have downloaded it and I will try it out to see how it affects the game....will report back.

Greets

Personally I don't really care if some attributes have been changed a little, I just wan't everything unfaked. I'm very anal when it comes to realism.

But I can see that it is a big problem for people who play challenges etc.

If attributes have been changed, then it is too late for this version, but maybe for EHM2008 people could try to persuad them to create both an "unchanged attributes version" and a "changed attributes version". If done the right way, it should'nt even be more work, just unfake all names etc. first, then save "unchanged database", then do everything else and save "changed attributes version".

I think the problem is that we don't know what they've changed or not changed, since they won't release what they've changed. Maybe it's not bad at all, and the changes were for the better, maybe not. We'll never know unless someone takes the time to deconstruct it all.

I think it's really silly. Just publish what you've changed, problem solved. I can understand maybe if they were charging money for this, but it's a free player mod. There's nothing to lose.

Though maybe they just don't have that info because they didn't keep track of what they were changing when they changed stuff. But then this would make we wonder about the quality of it and their accuracy, which is why I won't download it until they list what they've changed. It's sort of an issue of full disclosure. Be open and honest about your work, period.

Perhaps we could do a TBL Unfaking?

good, check what i get whit that unfacking...

Adam Oates i didnt know they changed attributes...

Have they always changed attributes?... that's not cool... I always thought it was just staff/arena names.

I think I'll be going back to default, in that case.

P.S. In case anyone wants to know - every player in the unfaking DB has Bob Clarke set as one of their disliked staff. They said it was an editor glitch and only cosmetic, but if it's not, something like that could have a game crippling effect(no one in the DB would want to sign with a Clarke managed team.)

B. Stinson wrote:Have they always changed attributes?... that's not cool... I always thought it was just staff/arena names.

I think I'll be going back to default, in that case.

P.S. In case anyone wants to know - every player in the unfaking DB has Bob Clarke set as one of their disliked staff. They said it was an editor glitch and only cosmetic, but if it's not, something like that could have a game crippling effect(no one in the DB would want to sign with a Clarke managed team.)

Kinda like real life then?

Javs2 in the SI forums :

no attribute changes

this is not an update, simply re-names the fake players to their real name

B. Stinson wrote:P.S. In case anyone wants to know - every player in the unfaking DB has Bob Clarke set as one of their disliked staff. They said it was an editor glitch and only cosmetic, but if it's not, something like that could have a game crippling effect(no one in the DB would want to sign with a Clarke managed team.)

Where do you see this? When I look at the database with the 0.3 editor I can't see it

I hope it is not true, that would be a gamebreaker.

ElQuapo wrote:I just wan't everything unfaked. I'm very anal when it comes to realism.

That's a contradiction, don't you think? You want realism but that realism will have gone if they've changed attributes.

As for Javs' quote, I don't want to start on a personal crusade against one or several of the people who are involved in the Unfaking Project, but there's certainly one person you really can't trust whether they have or have not made any changes. From past experience, we have been messed about by at least one person from that project - he's a hell of a loose cannon and hence why we've given up giving him the benefit of the doubt. Even another member of the Unfaking Project once told us he can't be trusted as to what he has and hasn't done. They refused to tell us what had and hadn't been changed - why would they do this if they'de merely unfaked things?

As for the Bob Clarke error - of course no one is going to want to sign him if everyone is set to dislike him. It's just something like that that shows that you just don't know what has been changed.

Munky - we have considered doing something similar to the Unfake Project but at the moment we're so busy writing an EHM Guide, upgrading the site and giving support to new users, etc. that there just isn't time. Maybe in the future (ours would of course come with a full changelist).

archibalduk wrote:That's a contradiction, don't you think? You want realism but that realism will have gone if they've changed attributes.

Well, yeah, that depends on what you define by realism. Fake names, arenas and teams are unrealistic by default. Attributes are subjektive, allthough I agree with you that the researchers would be better at rating these than someone who is covering the whole database.

archibalduk wrote:As for Javs' quote, I don't want to start on a personal crusade against one or several of the people who are involved in the Unfaking Project, but there's certainly one person you really can't trust whether they have or have not made any changes. From past experience, we have been messed about by at least one person from that project - he's a hell of a loose cannon and hence why we've given up giving him the benefit of the doubt. Even another member of the Unfaking Project once told us he can't be trusted as to what he has and hasn't done. They refused to tell us what had and hadn't been changed - why would they do this if they'de merely unfaked things?

I don't really know anything about it and don't wan't to get involved in a dispute between sides or anything, but I see what you are saying

archibalduk wrote:As for the Bob Clarke error - of course no one is going to want to sign him if everyone is set to dislike him. It's just something like that that shows that you just don't know what has been changed.

I am still not sure this is true. If you look in the database with the 0,3 editor, then I can't find anyone with Bob Clarke set at disliked.

archibalduk wrote:Munky - we have considered doing something similar to the Unfake Project but at the moment we're so busy writing an EHM Guide, upgrading the site and giving support to new users, etc. that there just isn't time. Maybe in the future (ours would of course come with a full changelist).

If you ever start this, I would be happy to help with unfaking arenas in general and danish stuff in particular.

archibalduk wrote:Munky - we have considered doing something similar to the Unfake Project but at the moment we're so busy writing an EHM Guide, upgrading the site and giving support to new users, etc. that there just isn't time. Maybe in the future (ours would of course come with a full changelist).

Archie, please contact me if u guys want to start doing an TBL unfaking!!

I would be more than glad to help out in everything I can. I know, Iam not good with PCs, so its hardly gonna happen that I will publish a grafic pack or something in that style, but I would be happy in helping out searching for stadiums, players and coaches all around the world.

As for the Bobby Clarke thing: I think its not fair!!! Simply as that!! IMHO if u are doing an unfake db u have to do it without personal feelings involved. It would be the same if I would publish an unfake db and put O'Connell the worst GM of all time....its just not fair.

I have downloaded the db, but Iam really thinking seriously if I will use it.

Greets

The 'Bob Clarke' issue is an editor bug (display only). It's true of any database you open. Basically the disliked staff fields are not being cleared out when you click onto another staff member so it will retain any disliked staff.

mne2 wrote:The 'Bob Clarke' issue is an editor bug (display only). It's true of any database you open. Basically the disliked staff fields are not being cleared out when you click onto another staff member so it will retain any disliked staff.

Thanks for clearing that up mne2.

Is the same true for Arenas sizes and conditions? That it is just shown but not saved? I have been wondering about that.

The 'Bob Clarke' issue is an editor bug (display only). It's true of any database you open. Basically the disliked staff fields are not being cleared out when you click onto another staff member so it will retain any disliked staff.

Sorry guys... this is the case. I never saw it in the DB before, so when I saw it in the unfaking, it looked like a big problem... or at least a glitch. I was checking through the default DB last night, and it was doing the same thing, except with different disliked staff.

ADMIN NOTE:

This year, The Blue Line is not supporting the Unfaking Patch. The reason being is that its creators will not tell us what they changed. They haven't just renamed things, they have changed the attributes of many players. However, they refuse to go into any details as to what they've changed. We kept asking them last year what they had changed and they got annoyed with us.

This year we said we'd only host their file if they'd be willing to provide us and our users with details of what they had changed. They ignored our request and hence we shall be giving absolutely no support whatsoever regarding the Unfaking Patch.

Whilst one of their members is the Head Researcher for Russia, how does that mean they have sufficient knowledge of the North American leagues to make a whole host of changes to the players' attributes? The North American researchers are the guys that get to see the players play every week so why can't we just stick with the attributes that those researchers set in the first place? This is why we no longer support the Unfaking Project. We just don't know exactly what the Unfakers have altered because they won't tell us. All we know is that they have changed attributes, apparently "to make the game more realistic".

Changing all of these attributes has a significant effect on gameplay; for example, increasing most or every NHL players' scoring attributes is going to result in more shots and goals per game. Mass editting on this scale can counter or exaggerate any tweaks and changes made by official SI patches for the game.

I understand that people have wishes of standards for what changed and what not, but this is in my opinion boldly overreacting. I'm not the best person to reply to this, but I was involved in the process so I know how it worked.

As far as I know, the Russia HR has not changed attributes (he doesn't really care that much about the NA anyway), Javs haven't done changes and neither have I. Pointing fingers and claiming things are easy, but what I would like to see is, actual proof of changed things (e.g. screenshot of player attributes unfaked/regular DB). If someone indeed has changed something, having proof is always good to have. Then the people involved can go start pointing fingers to each other.

The most likely reason that people have not provided information about changes is because of bad relations between certain people, not some fishy plot to ruin the game for everyone by changing stuff that actually affects the game.

One thing is sure, most of the unfaking was done in a new way of editing, by written import lists. They do not support attribute changing, only names and DOBs. The only needed manual work is adding birth places. One just created the lists and then imported with as less hassle as possible.

I know it could be shown what has been changed by the people who created this with the import list files, but I'm quite sure that people have no intention of showing them, because of a fear of the files getting into wrong hands that would use them for their own purposes.

Thanks for posting that TWolf. I appreciate an open discussion on this topic and I'm very happy to see someone who worked on it reply. It's always good to get all sides of a story.

I understand that it's easy to point fingers with no hard proof, but like I said before, unless someone is willing to deconstruct the DB and check every entry using multiple databases we might not know what has been changed and what hasn't. This also seems like a mountainous amount of work just to check the hard work of others. The easy solution to this is to just list what has changed in an official capacity.

You mention the reason this has not been done is because of bad relations with someone and the fear that this data could be used for some nefarious purpose. I don't quite understand how. Do the creaters of the Unfake DB have exclusive rights to someone's real name or team name? If I go into the editor and rename Boston Place, Boston to TD Banknorth Garden, Boston, am I infringing on the work of others who have done the same thing? I don't think so. I suppose the fear is that someone else would just use the data and hard work of others to release their own Unfake DB and call it their own. This is an issue with any user-made mod, whether it be a graphics pack or anything else. The gaming community does a pretty good job of policing itself in this matter, and I fail to see that as a legitimate concern. It's a real risk that any mod creator takes.

I'm willing to take your word for it that no attributes have been changed or any other game unbalancing changes were made. Thank you for stating that. But I think it's a shame that I have to take the word of anyone and I can't see that for myself without going through each player just to make sure. The burden of proof should not be on my shoulders or the shoulders of the users of this database. The burden of proof is on those who created it.

Again, thank you for taking the time to respond.

The most likely reason that people have not provided information about changes is because of bad relations between certain people

because of a fear of the files getting into wrong hands that would use them for their own purposes.

To be 100% honest with all of you behind the unfaking, I think those are two really childish and selfish reasons for holding important info from the gamers who intend to download your mod.

noctambulist wrote: I suppose the fear is that someone else would just use the data and hard work of others to release their own Unfake DB and call it their own. This is an issue with any user-made mod, whether it be a graphics pack or anything else. The gaming community does a pretty good job of policing itself in this matter, and I fail to see that as a legitimate concern. It's a real risk that any mod creator takes.

Yes, you are correct. There are always risks that one has to take in this kind of situations. Then again the import list files are fairly simple and can be copy pasted just like that. Change the order a bit etc. and one can claim it as one's own creation. I'm not sure some of who have used countless of hours figuring who is who and written them down are willing to share things totally freely. Graphic addons are much harder to "steal" than notepad text and the chances of getting caught are much much higher.

B. Stinson wrote: To be 100% honest with all of you behind the unfaking, I think those are two really childish and selfish reasons for holding important info from the gamers who intend to download your mod.

As I said earlier, one might argue how easy it is to change places of a couple of lines and claim it is yours. Surely it is a pity that we have to argue about this kind of issues, but I don't blame the others for not giving the core import list files to glance at. It creates distrust, but I don't really have problems sleeping because someone has not given proof of not doing something.

noctambulist wrote: I'm willing to take your word for it that no attributes have been changed or any other game unbalancing changes were made. Thank you for stating that. But I think it's a shame that I have to take the word of anyone and I can't see that for myself without going through each player just to make sure. The burden of proof should not be on my shoulders or the shoulders of the users of this database. The burden of proof is on those who created it.

All I'm saying that I believe that others have not changed things and I'm sure I haven't changed attributes. It is possible some might have, but that is a matter of honesty. One never knows what goes in the minds of others.

Well, maybe we all have overreacted in this matter, but I want to say TWolf thanks for replying here!!
Its always good to hear both points of view and I can understand both sides.

As I said before, I have downloaded it but still havent in the game, but I will give it a try as I have made a backup of the database anyway.

On the other hand, I still cant understand the "secretism" involved in the unfaking by some guys as I would be proud of saying everybody what I have changed in this proyect (being one of the most important proyects for the game togheter with the facepacks IMHO).

Anyway, thanks again for clearing your part out TWolf and thanks for doing the unfake.

One thing i would say on the matter of a changelog for a database update is that nobody would ever release an update if they had to document every single change they made. At a rough count there are around 90 data items per player. To document all changes would take forever.

I can see why there is a need for a changelog for software as it allows you to 'backtrack' if issues arise but for a database update i don't see the point at all