EHM The Blue Line

I pretty much agree with what you're saying empach but one thing you really need to consider... the player generator is for creating new young players when an old one retires. We're not going to give a 15 year old a 20 in passing. He'll develop into that 20 maybe but he won't get that when he's created.

I do agree that the attributes should be be grouped for each template. "A" attributes would be for the key attributes that really make up what that player type is all about. "B" attributes would be helpful attributes. These would be ones that are often pretty good in players of this type. "C" attributes would be ones that are rarely good in players of this type. Then as a player develops, it looks at the groups of attributes for that player type and factors in training and PA to eventually determine his peak.

bruins72 wrote:I pretty much agree with what you're saying empach but one thing you really need to consider... the player generator is for creating new young players when an old one retires. We're not going to give a 15 year old a 20 in passing. He'll develop into that 20 maybe but he won't get that when he's created.

Oh yeah, the actual numbers I used were just for examples.

drewst18 wrote:Other things I would like to add would be this fixed att system of 1-25. Dabo this could be a great system to allow for other att usage (none displayed, 1-5, 1-25, and 1-100) I think that is a must.

Could you rephrase that?

Alessandro wrote:I suggest to create something that allows a certain percentage of players based off nationality. I mean, grinders or defensive forwards should be rare in Russia, which prefers danglers/playmakers, in Canada they should have a bigger percentage, and so on

Absolutely, I will be looking to add this along with as much as possible into the database so it won't be hardcoded. But I need to try things out before I promise too much.

drewst18 wrote:Might be too late for this, but I think that we might be focused a little bit too much on the EHM system rather than the games that have expanded since then like OOTP and FM..

i think the big three to me are EHM (FM), OOTP, and Front Office Football - its a great game that hasn't been mentioned to much...its problem is the interface.

I think most importantly Dabo makes this HIS game. Don't try and replace EHM because you won't be able to very easily but adding dimentions that other games offer and his own ideas (new things that haven't been tried yet) i think is the way to go.

Although i would kill for a hockey ootp game with a mix of FOF and EHM/FM lol. Wolverine Studios has a couple good ideas in their basketball game as well.

I just hope that most stuff is customizable...and that there is an expansion draft

Ok, since noone else has dared to specify which attributes should define player types I have today taken the first step and created a list from which we can use going forward. Post any changes needed and additional player types you want (in the format below), I have only used the player types mentioned in the first post so far.

Here are all the attributes in the game:

Goalkeeper (visible)

Technical

• Angles
  Blocker high
  Blocker low
  Breakaways
  Five hole
  Glove high
  Glove low
  Passing
  Poke checking
  Rebound control
  Reflexes
  Shot recovery

Skater (visible)

Technical

• Backhand
  Checking
  Deflecting
  Deking
  Faceoffs
  Hitting
  Passing
  Poke checking
  Puck control
  Shot blocking
  Slap shot
  Wrist shot

All players (visible)

Mental

• Aggressiveness
  Anticipation
  Composure
  Concentration
  Decisions
  Determination
  Discipline
  Influence
  Positioning
  Teamwork
  Toughness
  Work rate

Physical

• Acceleration
  Agility
  Balance
  Speed
  Stamina
  Strength

All players (hidden)

• Fighting ability
  Fighting tendency
  Hitting tendency
  Shooting tendency
  Shot blocking tendency
  Injury proneness
  Natural fitness
  Agitation
  Versatility
  Consistency
  Dirtyness
  Important games
  Adaptability
  Ambition
  Loyalty
  Pressure
  Professionalism
  Temperament

To clarify syntax used below:
+ Strength
- Weakness
[sup]x[/sup] Comment

Goalkeeper

Any goalie experts around? I haven't done anything for goalies yet.

Butterfly

Hybrid

Stand-up

Unorthodox

Defenceman

All-around

• + Hitting
  + Passing
  + Poke checking
  + Puck control
  + Concentration
  + Decisions
  + Determination
  + Positioning
  + Acceleration
  + Speed
  + Stamina
  - Deflecting
  - Faceoffs
  - Fighting ability
  - Fighting tendency
  - Agitation

Defensive

• + Hitting
  + Poke checking
  + Shot blocking
  + Concentration
  + Decisions
  + Determination
  + Positioning
  + Stamina
  + Strength
  + Hitting tendency
  + Shot blocking tendency
  - Deflecting
  - Deking
  - Faceoffs

Enforcer

Ignored since it might be removed.

Offensive

• + Passing
  + Puck control
  + Slap shot [sup]1[/sup]
  + Wrist shot [sup]1[/sup]
  + Anticipation
  + Decisions
  + Acceleration [sup]2[/sup]
  + Speed [sup]2[/sup]
  - Checking
  - Deflecting
  - Faceoffs
  - Toughness
  - Aggressiveness
  - Fighting ability
  - Fighting tendency
  - Agitation

[sup]1[/sup] Doesn't have to be both, could be one or the other.
[sup]2[/sup] Figured an offensive defenceman should be quick on his skates so that he can get back in defensive position (but perhaps only the all-around defenceman thinks like this?)

Puck moving

• + Passing
  + Puck control
  + Anticipation
  + Decisions
  + Acceleration
  + Speed
  - Checking
  - Deflecting
  - Faceoffs
  - Toughness
  - Aggressiveness
  - Fighting ability
  - Fighting tendency
  - Agitator

Forward

Dangler

• + Deking
  + Puck control
  + Composure
  + Concentration
  + Acceleration
  + Agility
  + Speed
  - Checking
  - Hitting
  - Aggressiveness
  - Toughness
  - Fighting ability
  - Fighting tendency
  - Hitting tendency
  - Shot blocking tendency
  - Agitation

Defensive

• + Poke checking
  + Shot blocking
  + Anticipation
  + Concentration
  + Decisions
  + Positioning
  + Teamwork
  + Work rate
  + Stamina
  + Shot blocking tendency
  - Deflections
  - Deking
  - Fighting ability
  - Fighting tendency

Enforcer

• + Checking
  + Hitting
  + Aggressiveness
  + Toughness
  + Balance
  + Strength
  + Fighting ability
  + Fighting tendency
  + Agitation
  - Deflecting
  - Deking
  - Puck control
  - Discipline

Grinder

• + Checking
  + Hitting
  + Aggressiveness
  + Toughness
  + Balance
  + Strength
  - Deflecting
  - Deking

Playmaker

• + Passing
  + Puck control
  + Anticipation
  + Composure
  + Decisions
  - Fighting ability
  - Fighting tendency
  - Hitting tendency [sup]1[/sup]
  - Shooting tendency
  - Shot blocking tendency
  - Agitation

[sup]1[/sup] Maybe this one should be removed.

Power forward

• + Checking
  + Hitting
  + Passing [sup]1[/sup]
  + Puck control
  + Aggressiveness
  + Slap shot [sup]1[/sup]
  + Wrist shot [sup]1[/sup]
  + Determination
  + Toughness
  + Balance
  + Strength
  + Hitting tendency
  
  Weaknesses anyone?

[sup]1[/sup] Perhaps this is not true for all power forwards but if they are removed attribute-wise the power forward will be pretty much like an enforcer or grinder. How can we separate the three in a good way? I know they have some in common.

Sniper

• + Slap shot
  + Wrist shot
  + Anticipation
  + Composure
  + Positioning
  + Shooting tendency
  - Checking
  - Hitting
  - Aggressiveness
  - Toughness
  - Fighting ability
  - Fighting tendency
  - Hitting tendency
  - Shot blocking tendency
  - Agitation

I didn't include backhand since I don't believe a sniper necessarily has a good backhand.

Two-way

• + Passing
  + Puck control
  + Poke checking
  + Shot blocking
  + Decisions
  + Positioning
  + Teamwork
  + Work rate
  + Acceleration
  + Speed
  + Stamina
  - Aggressiveness
  - Toughness
  - Fighting ability
  - Fighting tendency
  - Agitation

Let me know about any changes you wanna make. Also not that I only want attributes that are typical for a certain player type. A sniper could have a good passing ability but that is not the case most of the time so I think we can leave that for the ramdomizer to decide. Each attribute not considered a strength nor weakness of a player type will get a random value.

Where are the faceoff attributes for the forwards? I see that Dmen have a -faceoff attribute, that seems fair.

Is there any way to add +One Timer to the Sniper attributes?

Ogilthorpe wrote:Is there any way to add +One Timer to the Sniper attributes?

And Offensive and Two-Way defenceman while you're at it.

Ogilthorpe wrote:Where are the faceoff attributes for the forwards? I see that Dmen have a -faceoff attribute, that seems fair.

If a forward is good at faceoffs or not depends on the position not on the player type. A power forward playing C is more likely to be good at faceoffs than one playing LW. For defensemen I think it is fair to assume that all are bad at faceoffs that's why it's in the templates for them.

Ogilthorpe wrote:Is there any way to add +One Timer to the Sniper attributes?

There is no such attribute.

I have added lists of attributes in the game in my previous post.

I like what I'm seeing in your player templates, dabo. I've noticed you've got some attributes that aren't in EHM. Could you give a little explanation of the various attributes so we can better understand them and make recommendations based on that? For example, how does the "Composure" attribute work? Would that be low for Enforcers because they're easily goaded into fights?

I do like the idea of a "One Timer" attribute. Some players are really good with that and others aren't.

I found this in a dictionary which explains how I think of it:

Composure - steadiness of mind under stress; calmness

"Despite the hysteria and panic around him, he retained his composure."

dabo wrote:I found this in a dictionary which explains how I think of it:

Composure - steadiness of mind under stress; calmness

"Despite the hysteria and panic around him, he retained his composure."

So in the game it's going to be like "Pressure" was in EHM?

bruins72 wrote:

dabo wrote:I found this in a dictionary which explains how I think of it:

Composure - steadiness of mind under stress; calmness

"Despite the hysteria and panic around him, he retained his composure."

So in the game it's going to be like "Pressure" was in EHM?

Don't know what it was like in EHM, but the pressure attribute I have is how a player handles pressure from the media and everything outside the rink. This could lead to a player wanting a trade if the media is on him too much etc.

Composure is only during actual match situations.

wow, this is really sounding great!

Dabo, do you have a consistency rating similar to EHM? I kinda wished we'd see more inconsistency out of some guys in EHM. It would be cool if that were to change based on cold streaks or hot streaks...or perhaps if there are up for a new contract. (Kovolev)

I hope you can also get the inconsistency right for goalies too.

Speaking of pressure, do you plan on making alot more pressure in some cities then others. The media in Toronto, Montreal, New York are cut throat...versus say nashville, florida, columbus where they are almost non existent. So when you sign a player who doesn't have good "composure" or who isn't good under "pressure" can just fall apart and not be able to regain it his whole career (or in some cases he can but in another city)

dave1927p wrote:Speaking of pressure, do you plan on making alot more pressure in some cities then others. The media in Toronto, Montreal, New York are cut throat...versus say nashville, florida, columbus where they are almost non existent.

Yes

dave1927p wrote:So when you sign a player who doesn't have good "composure" or who isn't good under "pressure" can just fall apart and not be able to regain it his whole career (or in some cases he can but in another city)

Yes, not sure about the bold part though. Again, not sure his composure on the ice should be influenced, should it?

dabo wrote:
Yes, not sure about the bold part though. Again, not sure his composure on the ice should be influenced, should it?

High pressure cities should definitely affect 'pressure' as you've defined it. It probably wouldn't affect 'composure' but low 'pressure' and a high pressure city should result in low morale which would result in poor play.

And I agree that a player with low 'pressure' in a high pressure city like Montreal would probably have a poorer career than had he played in a low pressure city like Nashville, given similar ice time, training, teammates etc. If I digged deep I could probably find some examples but it isn't something you could prove anyway.

The reverse probably works as well. Some players elevate their games playing in bigger markets.

empach wrote:

dabo wrote:
Yes, not sure about the bold part though. Again, not sure his composure on the ice should be influenced, should it?

High pressure cities should definitely affect 'pressure' as you've defined it. It probably wouldn't affect 'composure' but low 'pressure' and a high pressure city should result in low morale which would result in poor play.

And I agree that a player with low 'pressure' in a high pressure city like Montreal would probably have a poorer career than had he played in a low pressure city like Nashville, given similar ice time, training, teammates etc. If I digged deep I could probably find some examples but it isn't something you could prove anyway.

The reverse probably works as well. Some players elevate their games playing in bigger markets.

Lee Stepniak and Vesa Toskala are a couple recent examples. But when the playoffs came, where was Lee?

I think that there are players that play in big town cities that just lose all confidence in themselfs and some can never get it back. ...of course there are other factors things like workrate and injuries factors into that as well. It happens all the time in smaller market clubs too, maybe just not as fast?

One more thing, is there any type of stat for making your linemates better. Some guys are skilled and put up the points but they don't make their linemates better players, the great players do just that and make everyone better.

dabo, i'm sure you are probably already aware of this site Puck Prospectus but if you haven't it will definately help out with some attributes and ratings. I am liking their 20-80 rating breakdown. (maybe not necessarily for this game)

The book Hockeynomics has some good stat analysis that may help with the draft success along with other things.

dave1927p wrote:One more thing, is there any type of stat for making your linemates better. Some guys are skilled and put up the points but they don't make their linemates better players, the great players do just that and make everyone better.

No, what would you call that attribute?

dabo wrote:

dave1927p wrote:One more thing, is there any type of stat for making your linemates better. Some guys are skilled and put up the points but they don't make their linemates better players, the great players do just that and make everyone better.

No, what would you call that attribute?

I like the idea of this attribute, not sure what to call it though. Elevate maybe?
I could even see it being a 0 or 1 attribute. Either you do or you don't, it's going to be a hard thing to rate players at. But it may be best to keep the regular scale.

empach wrote:

dabo wrote:
Yes, not sure about the bold part though. Again, not sure his composure on the ice should be influenced, should it?

High pressure cities should definitely affect 'pressure' as you've defined it. It probably wouldn't affect 'composure' but low 'pressure' and a high pressure city should result in low morale which would result in poor play.

And I agree that a player with low 'pressure' in a high pressure city like Montreal would probably have a poorer career than had he played in a low pressure city like Nashville, given similar ice time, training, teammates etc. If I digged deep I could probably find some examples but it isn't something you could prove anyway.

The reverse probably works as well. Some players elevate their games playing in bigger markets.

I really like the idea of some players not being able to handle the pressure of playing in certain markets. That would seriously change things up. I'd also like to see it affect free agent signings. A player with a low "pressure" rating probably wouldn't sign with Montreal.

And as you said, there are some players that just won't thrive in some of these non-hockey markets like Florida and Nashville. Their game will suffer if they're playing for an empty arena. They need to have fans to push them. Maybe if they have a high "pressure" rating, their game will suffer on low pressure teams?

empach wrote:

dabo wrote:

dave1927p wrote:One more thing, is there any type of stat for making your linemates better. Some guys are skilled and put up the points but they don't make their linemates better players, the great players do just that and make everyone better.

No, what would you call that attribute?

I like the idea of this attribute, not sure what to call it though. Elevate maybe?
I could even see it being a 0 or 1 attribute. Either you do or you don't, it's going to be a hard thing to rate players at. But it may be best to keep the regular scale.

I like this one! I think it should be the normal 1-20 (25 with generational players) scale. Most players would float around the 10 mark, some dipping below that, but then you'd get those special players who would fill the upper half of the scale. And then you could look at a generational player like Gretzky who might get a 25 in this.

empach wrote:

dabo wrote:

dave1927p wrote:One more thing, is there any type of stat for making your linemates better. Some guys are skilled and put up the points but they don't make their linemates better players, the great players do just that and make everyone better.

No, what would you call that attribute?

I like the idea of this attribute, not sure what to call it though. Elevate maybe?
I could even see it being a 0 or 1 attribute. Either you do or you don't, it's going to be a hard thing to rate players at. But it may be best to keep the regular scale.

It will be hard to give it to majority of players so maybe a 0, 1, to 2 might work until a better rating system comes out? 1 would be sidney crosbys and a 2 would be wayne gretzky, mario lemieux, bobby orr (in other words, extreamly extreamley rare)


Dabo, i have always thought the rating in EHM have been to high, would it be at all possible to customize the average skill levels for the player generation? I know there aren't any overalls but the average in EHM would be in the 70s, i want them in the high 50s to low 60s ... and the top players in the mid 80s ...

200 - Generational (Gretzky)
190 - Superstar (Ovie)
180 - Franchise (Gaborik)
170 - 1st liner
160 - 1st/2nd liner

It would be amazing if we could punch in our own numbers (where bold) to change the attributes of created players...the amount of work it would require would be drastic im sure unfortuantely

But I don't think that fighting should affect any player type, well, maybe fighting tendency, but not definitely figthing abilities.
Regarding goalies, I would say that butterflies are definitely +agility, +glove low, +blocker low and perhaps -positioning, but the difference is IMHO more stylistic than ratings, so maybe you can just drop the patterns. Also unhortodox always made me little sense, I'd say that a goalie is either butterfly, standup or hybrid

Yeah, you could probably go with just Butterfly, Stand-up, and Hybrid. I think an unorthodox goalie would fit into the Hybrid category.

Standup
+Angles
+Positioning
+Balance
+Blocker High
+Glove High
-Agility
-Shot Recovery
-Five Hole

Butterfly
+Agilty
+Shot Recovery (is this how quickly they recover their stance after blocking a shot?)
+Five Hole
+Glove Low
+Stick Low
-Blocker High
-Positioning
-???

Hybrid
+Agility
+Reflexes
+Shot Recovery
+???
-???
-???
-???

When creating regens, I would use a probability distribution to calculate the new PA. It's quite easy to generate Gaussian numbers in C (or any other language, as long as you have a random number generator).

All you would have to do is say the mean is the old guys PA and set the standard deviation to (say) 2% of his PA. So if a player retired with PA of 170, then a distribution of PA's would be something like this: http://yfrog.com/16distsp

I think doing it this way is more rigorous than just saying PA can be within +-10% for example.