EHM The Blue Line

XenHL wrote:Again, this is just my 2d, my take on how I'd do things. But I think it gets a satisfactory result in that all the teams in the playable leagues, at least, are teams that actually existed in 1974/75. Personally, since the teams in the playable leagues are the ones that are most often encountered in normal game play, that's where I'd put the most effort for accuracy, at the expense of teams from leagues we don't usually see.

I agree. This would be the best way to do things. After all, this is how Nino filled up the NHL.
Good thinking!

Some thoughts on teams...

XenHL wrote:It's a compromise, but sometimes there's no way around compromising. Again, this is just a personal opinion, but I'd be on the side of having greater accuracy in the visible/playable leagues, at the expense of non-playable, less-visible leagues.

My concern for accuracy is primarily towards the players/staff, and not really towards teams.....For me I'm familiar with the AJHL/BCJHL teams that you're suggesting moving up to the WHL and I myself wouldn't want to see them in the WHL (I'm actually probably more familiar with teams from the 1970s and 1980s than I am of teams in the last 20 years....so the presence of some of the "modern" teams maybe doesn't bother me so much).....I kept some "modern" teams just because I liked the team logo/name (for example, Baie-Comeau Drakkar) AND I also like to consider geographical factors too (especially applicability to the league's division name)

XenHL wrote:
I think it gets a satisfactory result in that all the teams in the playable leagues, at least, are teams that actually existed in 1974/75
Manimal wrote:
I agree. This would be the best way to do things. After all, this is how Nino filled up the NHL.

Actually while the players/staff are all from IRL 1974, not all the teams are! Teams like the Calgary Cowboys, Colorado Rockies, Seattle Totems, Birmingham Bulls (and the Ottawa Senators) did not exist in 1974/75!


Because there's no choice but to accept so many "non 1974" teams, when in doubt I'm most likely to go for a team where #1 I like the logo/name and
(if possible) #2 their presence "makes sense" geographically


Regards

Nino...You think like me. BCJHL teams from the time in question DO NOT BELONG in the WHL. They were horrible teams back then. I just cannot see them playing in the WHL...would be too weird for me. I would much rather have the league filled with teams that have a historical basis in the league...be it prior to 1974 or post 1974...

Having the Vernon Vikings in the WHL makes no sense to me. It would be like putting in the New Westminster Royals....no thanks. Would rather see the Vancouver Giants or in the case of Alberta putting in Drumheller Falcons when you could put in s makes no sense.

Just as a note: IN 1974 it was the Lethbridge Broncos not the Hurricanes.

Here is a list of historical (defunct) WHL franchise names:

Billings Bighorns · Calgary Buffaloes · Calgary Centennials · Calgary Wranglers · Chilliwack Bruins · Edmonton Ice · Edmonton Oil Kings · Estevan Bruins · Flin Flon Bombers · Great Falls Americans · Kamloops Chiefs · Kamloops Junior Oilers · Kelowna Wings · Lethbridge Broncos · Moose Jaw Canucks · Nanaimo Islanders · New Westminster Bruins · Seattle Breakers · Spokane Flyers · Tacoma Rockets · Vancouver Nats · Victoria Cougars · Weyburn Red Wings · Winnipeg Clubs · Winnipeg Jets · Winnipeg Monarchs · Winnipeg Warriors

It is a little different in Saskatchewan and Manitoba for me....PA Raiders moved from SJHL to WHL so they are fine...and FLin Flon Bombers went from WHL to SJ to MJHL....etc....so no issue for me there.


Dont use Estevan Bruins for 1974---they are the same franchise as NW Bruins,

Also the Calgary Wranglers were really the Calgary Centenniels in 197475

I know you are not as interested in the team names, but I am...hence why I share.

You can find the ACTUAL WCJHL (it Was Western Canadian Junior hockey league) back then standings and teams here

All other seasons can be found there as well....a league name change to WCJHL would be so cool.

Have you had any thoughts on filling the junior-teams that did not exist in 74-75 with players? Or are you gonna have them empty and let them sign whatever free-agents they can get?

batdad wrote:You can find the ACTUAL WCJHL (it Was Western Canadian Junior hockey league) back then standings and teams here

Or I can look in the actual WCHL 1974/75 Yearbook (Media Guide) that I own! Like I can use the first ever OHA Yearbook from 1974/75 that I own for the OHL.....and I've got notebooks full of notes! It's not a lack of data! It's a lack of time! I have hundreds of hours of adding additional players and completing the team editing already in progress before I'm going to look at further overhauling team names!

Last September I for the second time lost 400-500 hours of work due to not understanding the "Run as Admin" (Windows 7) issue....I made the AHL/Major Junior team name changes then as a test to ensure I'd overcome the Windows 7 issue....and I haven't looked at them again since, and so close to a release (with so much still to do) I'm not tackling a name overhaul now!.......I know there's issues/errors, but I'm willing to live with them at this point

Manimal wrote:Have you had any thoughts on filling the junior-teams that did not exist in 74-75 with players? Or are you gonna have them empty and let them sign whatever free-agents they can get?

Ideally I would love them to be 100% populated with "grey players" but I don't think the game will let that happen.....my recent testing seemed to indicate the game created/placed a lot of players at start-up, and until I better understand what is happening I'm not sure what can and can't be done...

Just fully populating the db with all the known historical staff/players is keeping me busy enough so far that I haven't yet really had to think about what to do with these "other teams" much...In the FAR FAR AWAY future when eveything else was done I'd probably populate them with generic/common named players/staff that would have to be manually created...

nino33 wrote:Ideally I would love them to be 100% populated with "grey players" but I don't think the game will let that happen.....my recent testing seemed to indicate the game created/placed a lot of players at start-up, and until I better understand what is happening I'm not sure what can and can't be done...

I have never seen the game populate a team in a playable and enabled league at start-up

I tried to edit an earlier post but I can't Quote when editing...

batdad wrote:Just as a note: IN 1974 it was the Lethbridge Broncos not the Hurricanes.

I know; IIRC I intended to have the Swift Current Broncos in the WHL, and that's why I used Hurricanes for Lethbridge (I like the name Swift Current Broncos)

batdad wrote:Also the Calgary Wranglers were really the Calgary Centenniels in 197475

I know, I just like the name Wranglers much, much better than Centenniels (and for me Centenniels will always be the Merrit Centennials!)

batdad wrote:I know you are not as interested in the team names, but I am

I'm interested! Just not enough to spend the time on it at this time in the database development!

Ooh, lots said to reply to.

NHL teams - yeah, I know not all were around in 1974/75, but I understand making some compromises for 'realism', like it wouldn't do to have two teams in Vancouver, for example.

As a note: I was also paying attention to geography, that's one of my little nitpicks too. (Relatedly, I wish there was a way to make sure Quebecois players have Quebecois names and French as fluent... annoys me to see a guy like Vincent Lecavalier with fluent English and only basic French, but.)

Players vs teams: I understand the desire - one of my issues with the 1979 db is seeing too many players I recognise as modern players, which jolts the immersion for me. But I also think team names like "Screaming Eagles" or "River Rats" seem too modern - they "feel" 1990s, not 1970s. Maybe that's just me.

Maybe it's also just me, but I don't see much of a difference between having the Seattle Totems or Cleveland Crusaders in the NHL and having the Bellingham Blazers in the WHL.

I guess I just think period-accurate names are better for immersion.

But either way!

Whatever you decide to go with, I'll do the best I can as far as the logo pack goes.

Nino, did you get my email with the NHL logo pack?

Manimal wrote:I have never seen the game populate a team in a playable and enabled league at start-up

FYI I never look just at playable leagues to remove modern players/staff so they didn't potentially "show" in-game (like when doing a Player/Staff Search), I looked at every player and every staff in every league! I "discovered" that well know historical players were fledgling modern staff with a 35 CA (such a low CA! It requires a lot of searching to TRY to find all the modern/known players/staff).

RE the game "populating players" at start-up! It is (see screenshot below) - Of course the 1974 db currently has hundreds/thousands less players than a typical database These "missing players" are mostly the modern players that I made Invalid whose CA/PA was 101-200
Then I've been adding players back ever since (so far mostly in North America)....some Major Junior teams at this point only have 10-15 players on the team at start-up (including 1-2 "grey" players); if playing in the NHL I don't think you'd notice (this issue will over time be "fixed" as I further populate the database with historical staff/players)....this is an example of why my focus is still so much on adding players/staff (it just takes time!)

Let me see if I follow you correctly here, as we might not be talking about exactly the same thing. (it will get easier once I have the db to see for myself)

Are those players from the screenshot listed as 'Invalid' ? If so, are they listed with a team?
I know they are modern players.

In my database(and most others, too) there are only a few players in junior with a CA of 100 or above so you should probably lower the bar as to what modern players you are removing from the game in the future

EDIT

nino33 wrote: RE the game "populating players" at start-up! It is (see screenshot below)

Sorry, I did not read this part. (Was it there at first?)

XenHL wrote:Nino, did you get my email with the NHL logo pack?

I love 'em! THANKS MUCH!!!



FYI What I've been working on lately is completing NHL Team Records.....they are done! And I found a "bug" - the game does not seem to store Least Team Wins, Least Team Goals Scored, and Least Team Goals Against; in all three the game doubles up whatever the "Most" Record is (regardless of the database apparently)...
AND I haven't found IRL Team Rookie Records or Goalie Wins Records (yet), but all other Team, Season Individual, and Career individual Records are as of September 1974!

XenHL wrote:But I also think team names like "Screaming Eagles" or "River Rats" seem too modern - they "feel" 1990s, not 1970s. Maybe that's just me.

I don't like Screaming Eagles either....I kinda like River Rats myself (makes me think of "Emmet Otter's Jug Band Christmas" HaHa)...

XenHL wrote: I don't see much of a difference between having the Seattle Totems or Cleveland Crusaders in the NHL and having the Bellingham Blazers in the WHL.

Actually Seattle came VERY close to getting an NHL hockey team in 1974 (or so say my magazines from the era and the Hockey News) and the Seattle Totems were a well known "professional" hockey team in the 1960s and into the 70s.....and the Cleveland Crusaders were a pro hockey team! With legendary (though not my favourite) Gerry Cheevers in net! Playing in the WHA with Bobby Hull, Gordie Howe and other hockey legends!........
AND for me, I remember watching teams like the New Westminster Bruins (in Queens Park Arena...with Punch McLean and Barry Beck and the BS chant!) and the Victoria Cougars (when Fuhr was there) and all along I knew of the BCJHL and teams like the Bellingham Blazers......so for me it`s really jarring to think of them in the WHL

XenHL wrote:I guess I just think period-accurate names are better for immersion

In general I agree (I really do).....and I will be dealing with team names much more, but in the future!

Manimal wrote:Sorry, I did not read this part. (Was it there at first?)

Yep!


EDIT
It`s only Murray Csisar and Charlie SCOUTStein that are created "grey players"

nino33 wrote: RE the game "populating players" at start-up! It is (see screenshot below) - Of course the 1974 db currently has hundreds/thousands less players than a typical database These "missing players" are mostly the modern players that I made Invalid whose CA/PA was 101-200

This made me go check my latest db and I have almost no 'invalid' staff at all. That is probably the reason my teams do not get populated (other than the grey ones but they do not count as real players since they change every day).

If you changed all your invalids into retired then they would not show up in game

Manimal wrote:In my database(and most others, too) there are only a few players in junior with a CA of 100 or above so you should probably lower the bar as to what modern players you are removing from the game in the future

I didn`t just remove CA 101-200, I also removed CA 0-100 and PA 101-200....plus I removed -15, -14, etc
I did wish halfway through the project that I had picked 90, or even 80 (like I kinda wished I`d stuck with a 1976 db)....but that`s all water under the bridge now!

The modern players will eventually all be overwritten with historical players for all the available historical teams, and then.....what`s left will have to be random/common names, low CA/PA and 01/02/1900 DOB I guess...

Manimal wrote:If you changed all your invalids into retired then they would not show up in game

The Invalids are my "talent pool" for adding staff/players...so as I add to the AHL, (some) Major Junior and my "created minor hockey leagues" (full of 6-12 year olds) there will be fewer and fewer on the Invalid list!

Glad you like the logos! I wasn't able to test them in-game before sending them though, since I don't have a DB with the same team names in it, but there's one I'm kinda worried about, namely the Seals one used in games - it's not too big for the small banner-head in a game screen, is it?

As an anecdote, I lived in New Westminster through elementary school, remember hearing stories of the Bruins (my great uncle had a NW Bruins bumper sticker on his old truck all the way until he passed on).

I'd heard about Seattle nearly getting an NHL team and have an idea of the WHA (I had a pile of old WHA cards when I was a kid, that had belonged to one of my cousins), but the point I was trying to make was the discrepancy in league quality... as I understand it the WHA was, with the exception of a few stars they managed to sign for exorbitant sums, overall of a significantly lower calibre than the NHL... so I was just thinking, that if that isn't so much of an issue, I'm not sure why it would be to have the Vernon Vikings or (SJHL) Prince Albert Raiders in the WHL.

Either way though, it's not an issue that's going to make me any less eager to see the finished product!

I'll leave you to figure out the other teams, I've got plenty of work to do with the player pictures in the meantime!

XenHL wrote:I wasn't able to test them in-game before sending them though, since I don't have a DB with the same team names in it, but there's one I'm kinda worried about, namely the Seals one used in games - it's not too big for the small banner-head in a game screen, is it?

I haven`t looked at them in-game yet myself! Since I got a few days extra editing time (waiting for Arch`s weird name fix), I`ve been trying to get all the editing done I can before the release to testers; I`ll try to make the time for a closer look later this week...

XenHL wrote:as I understand it the WHA was, with the exception of a few stars they managed to sign for exorbitant sums, overall of a significantly lower calibre than the NHL

The top couple/few WHA teams (especially Winnipeg!) could have competed with any NHL team. And the worst of the NHL (Washington; Kansas City/Colorado) was almost as bad as the WHA`s worst......the WHA was also the real kickstart to Europeans in North America! Whie Salming in Toronto played a huge factor too, the line of Hedberg, Nilsson and Hull was scary good for the Jets!

XenHL wrote:I've got plenty of work to do

Me too!


Best Wishes

Manimal - In rereading the posts from this evening (at least it's evening here!) I think there may have been a misunderstanding.......I am NOT saying the game is creating real players (that last and have careers) at start-up, and I am NOT saying that the game is actually just taking an Invalid player/staff and putting them back in the game!
I'm just saying that the game is using the Invalid (weird) names to randomly create grey players at least, and because the 1974 db currently has thousands less players/staff than other databases perhaps this is showing up more, and because they're names like Charlie SCOUTStein they IMO ruin the mood.......this will soon be fixed!


ALSO I did things like reduce modern player CA and/or PA as well as make them Invalid...so you perhaps recognize a modern player that you know has a CA/PA above 100 but I suspect he doesn't because I've edited the CA/PA



Regards

nino33 wrote:Manimal - In rereading the posts from this evening (at least it's evening here!) I think there may have been a misunderstanding.......I am NOT saying the game is creating real players (that last and have careers) at start-up, and I am NOT saying that the game is actually just taking an Invalid player/staff and putting them back in the game!
I'm just saying that the game is using the Invalid (weird) names to randomly create grey players at least, and because the 1974 db currently has thousands less players/staff than other databases perhaps this is showing up more, and because they're names like Charlie SCOUTStein they IMO ruin the mood.......this will soon be fixed!


ALSO I did things like reduce modern player CA and/or PA as well as make them Invalid...so you perhaps recognize a modern player that you know has a CA/PA above 100 but I suspect he doesn't because I've edited the CA/PA



Regards

Great!

XenHL wrote:

Manimal wrote: I just ran a test with the NHL, OHL and Swedish Elitserien.
Away teams will always have white jerseys and the home team coloured.
I would guess it is the same with all the leagues

Okay, then it's not just me.

I did some more testing with the Swedish Elitserien and it seems that the colors can change and I found no pattern to it. Will have a look at the NA leagues again some day

nino33 wrote: AND I haven't found IRL Team Rookie Records or Goalie Wins Records (yet), but all other Team, Season Individual, and Career individual Records are as of September 1974!

I could help find some of those stats for a good amount of teams. I assume you include career wins, wins in a season, and rookie points only right?(Probably missing some)

Moses Doughty wrote:I could help find some of those stats for a good amount of teams. I assume you include career wins, wins in a season, and rookie points only right?(Probably missing some)

Awesome!
The "Goalie Wins" is a season record.....so most wims by a Goasltender for a team in a single season.
The Rookie Records are a season record too......I know for sure there's a "Most Rookie Goals".......I'm at work now, but should be home in about 4 hours, and I'll check then to see if there's more Rookie Records than just Most Goals

Regards




EDIT

The needed data is
- Most Goaltender Wins (season) for each NHL team
- Most Rookie Goals (season) for each NHL team
- Most Rookie Points (season) for each NHL team

Regards

nino33 wrote:

Moses Doughty wrote:I could help find some of those stats for a good amount of teams. I assume you include career wins, wins in a season, and rookie points only right?(Probably missing some)

Awesome!
The "Goalie Wins" is a season record.....so most wims by a Goasltender for a team in a single season.
The Rookie Records are a season record too......I know for sure there's a "Most Rookie Goals".......I'm at work now, but should be home in about 4 hours, and I'll check then to see if there's more Rookie Records than just Most Goals

Regards




EDIT

The needed data is
- Most Goaltender Wins (season) for each NHL team
- Most Rookie Goals (season) for each NHL team
- Most Rookie Points (season) for each NHL team

Regards

Ok thanks, Ill get to work on those now. Im assuming you only need me to look at teams who had been in the NHL before the 74-75 season?(just wanted to make sure)



Edit-Actually I was able to find goalie stats on hockeyreference.com that shows the old teams too and a subset for WHA teams that went to the NHL, so this will make goalie stats take a few minutes, sadly it shows no rookie stats

Moses Doughty wrote:Im assuming you only need me to look at teams who had been in the NHL before the 74-75 season?(just wanted to make sure)

Just for those teams in the NHL IRL in September of 1974...
Atlanta Flames
Boston Bruins
Buffalo Sabres
California Seals
Chicago Blackhawks
Colorado Rockies (Kansas City Scouts)
Detroit Red Wings
Los Angeles Kings
Minnesota North Stars
Montreal Canadiens
New York Islanders
New York Rangers
Philadelphia Flyers
Pittsburgh Penguins
St. Louis Blues
Toronto Maple Leafs
Vancouver Canucks

You don't need to do the Washington Capitals as 1974-75 was their first season in the NHL.

For the "WHA teams' I can do Goalie Wins easily enough (only two seasons!) and i'll probably just leave WHA Rookie Records blank; I didn't input Team Records for the WHA teams (though I think I might) but I did input Individual records for the WHA teams (because I had them in book)

nino33 wrote:

Moses Doughty wrote:Im assuming you only need me to look at teams who had been in the NHL before the 74-75 season?(just wanted to make sure)

Just for those teams in the NHL IRL in September of 1974...
Atlanta Flames
Boston Bruins
Buffalo Sabres
California Seals
Chicago Blackhawks
Colorado Rockies (Kansas City Scouts)
Detroit Red Wings
Los Angeles Kings
Minnesota North Stars
Montreal Canadiens
New York Islanders
New York Rangers
Philadelphia Flyers
Pittsburgh Penguins
St. Louis Blues
Toronto Maple Leafs
Vancouver Canucks

You don't need to do the Washington Capitals as 1974-75 was their first season in the NHL.

For the "WHA teams' I can do Goalie Wins easily enough (only two seasons!) and i'll probably just leave WHA Rookie Records blank; I didn't input Team Records for the WHA teams (though I think I might) but I did input Individual records for the WHA teams (because I had them in book)

Ok thanks, makes it a bit quicker. And btw Kansas City wasnt playing until 1974-75 either

Moses Doughty wrote:Kansas City wasnt playing until 1974-75 either

I did know that! Oops