EHM The Blue Line

Yeah I found that odd too Laz. But..I saw it in a tweet from a hockey person, not exactly a medical doctor. On the other hand, pretty much everything is linked to everything somehow some way in the physiological world so I could see it being an issue.

And I need to go to a doctor...just because I should actually do that. Been 5 years since the last visit. (was about to turn 40, so you know why I went)

And no comments about needing another type of doctor, or a rubber room or anything like that.

Now..where the hell was I?

Right--Sorry Primis, yeah he is not Osgood in that way, what should have said is he is just a guy who is just a decent goalie, and occasionally has a hot streak. But most of his good play, has come with an amazing puck possession and strong team in front of him, just like Osgood's career. Not the same goalie...but that part is the same. Howard is just average when the team is just average.

Occasional hot streak (a la Anderson) but not always a consistent dude. Never gets much worse than average. Limits the goaltending issues other teams face, but never a top level guy.

batdad wrote:
Right--Sorry Primis, yeah he is not Osgood in that way, what should have said is he is just a guy who is just a decent goalie, and occasionally has a hot streak. But most of his good play, has come with an amazing puck possession and strong team in front of him, just like Osgood's career. Not the same goalie...but that part is the same. Howard is just average when the team is just average.

Occasional hot streak (a la Anderson) but not always a consistent dude. Never gets much worse than average. Limits the goaltending issues other teams face, but never a top level guy.

You are completely wrong here, and this is what Primis was trying to explain. Howard is more than "just a decent goalie", and I just get so irritated when people who don't watch him play say things like this. He is absolutely not "just average when the team is average" either. As I mentioned earlier, he carried the team last year after Lidstrom retired. Without Howard, the Wings don't make the playoffs last year. The same will be true this year as well.

He is a top level guy, again I ask you look at his career numbers and compare them to other goalies in the NHL during the same time-frame. Let me know if you can name 10-15 goalies between 2009-10 and 2013-14 who have better numbers on equal teams as what the Wings had. We have lost Rafalski, Stuart, and Lidstrom in the last 3 seasons and Howard has still put up good numbers and kept this team competitive.

No he is just an average goalie. Sorry. He is about 10th -15th in my feeling on a list of the best goalies in the world. That makes him average.

Is he better than any of these:

Rinne, Rask, Bob, Hiller, Quick. Miller, Price, Smith, Crawford, Niemi, Luongo, Schneider, Lundqvist, Varlamov, Ward, Bishop, Fleury, Anderson, Halak, Elliott, Harding

That is 21 goalies in the NHL, and Martin Brodeur is not listed. So if he is not better than what 15 of those guys he is just a decent, average goalie. The top 5 or 6 or so in the league are the above average goalies, then you get the middling guys that are in the median of goaltending ability, and then you get the bottom guys who are below the norm.

So...when I say he is average, and decent. That is what he is. He is not in the top 10, so therefore is not in the running to be an elite goalie. He is not in the bottom 10, so he is not a bum. he is in the middle...11-20 area, and that is an average goalie in the NHL.

Again, name me your top 10 in goalies. Howard should not be on it. IF he is..then you are a homer.

The way you call a top 10-20 goalie average might rub people the wrong way =P An average goalie should be someone that is more 50-75 in the league =P I see your point though and agree, he's in the middle of the pack of the starting goalies.

Middle of the pack is average is it not? Median, mean...etc. May be at the top level of average, but that is still average.

Key phrase in my post "of the starting goalies". Still, i agree with the point you were making =)

I think he is better overall than some of the guys you listed which is why I thought my "top 15" assessment of him is pretty dead on I feel, making him an average NHL goalie. He is not going to win a cup on his own but he isn't going to cost his team one either and the team is not looking for an upgrade or someone to split time with him.

Goalies are hard to judge since they are affected by the team around them so much. Popular example is Quick this year who many would say is one of the best in the league, but when a rookie and "journeyman" (sorry scrivens) can come in and get shut outs and not let up more than 2 goals how much can we really say is Quick compared to the team? Just like how Lundqvist did better under a defensive minded Torts in NYR than he did this year (has since gotten better). The Leafs goalies have some of the highest save % right now but its bc they face SO many more shots due to a poor (?) team getting outshot every game, however not every shot is created equal. Then you have someone like Bishop or Anderson who have one/two really great season but haven't demonstrated it consistently at all.

All goalies do better on a defensive minded team. Scrivens is an example of that (or soon will be). But Quick is not. He is just a darn good goalie. His technical play is unorthodox, but he is amazing, much in the way Hasek was (although not the same unorthodox stuff). Lundqvist is just darn good. Others such as our friend Howard, are exposed for their weaknesses more often on weak teams than guys like Lundquist and Quick would be. Those two STEAL GAMES for their teams, and Howard does not, in my opinion on a regular basis.

batdad wrote:No he is just an average goalie. Sorry. He is about 10th -15th in my feeling on a list of the best goalies in the world. That makes him average.

Is he better than any of these:

Rinne, Rask, Bob, Hiller, Quick. Miller, Price, Smith, Crawford, Niemi, Luongo, Schneider, Lundqvist, Varlamov, Ward, Bishop, Fleury, Anderson, Halak, Elliott, Harding

That is 21 goalies in the NHL, and Martin Brodeur is not listed. So if he is not better than what 15 of those guys he is just a decent, average goalie. The top 5 or 6 or so in the league are the above average goalies, then you get the middling guys that are in the median of goaltending ability, and then you get the bottom guys who are below the norm.

So...when I say he is average, and decent. That is what he is. He is not in the top 10, so therefore is not in the running to be an elite goalie. He is not in the bottom 10, so he is not a bum. he is in the middle...11-20 area, and that is an average goalie in the NHL.

Again, name me your top 10 in goalies. Howard should not be on it. IF he is..then you are a homer.

Here are some links since you seem to name random goalies:

Tuukka Rask: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8471695
Jonas Hiller: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8473972
Jonathan Quick: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8471734
Ryan Miller: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8468011
Carey Price: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8471679
Mike Smith: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8469608
Corey Crawford: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8470645
Antti Niemi: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8474550
Roberto Luongo: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8466141
Corey Schneider: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8471239
Henrik Lundqvist: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8468685
Semyon Varlamov: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8473575
Cam Ward: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8470320
Ben Bishop: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8471750
Marc-Andre Fleury: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8470594
Craig Anderson: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8467950
Jaroslav Halak: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8470860
Brian Elliot: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8470880
Josh Harding: http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8470216

Howard compares very favorably with nearly all of these goalies. Brodeur was the top goalie of his era and probably the top goalie of all time, but he is not that player any longer. If you compare Howard's career numbers to any of the guys you listed, they are very comparable. In fact, Howard has better numbers than many of these players. I am not looking at just this season, so why you would put Ben Bishop on this list at all is beyond me. Craig Anderson, Brian Elliot, and Mike Smith are not, and never were, elite goalies and don't belong in this conversation at all. Howard has better career numbers than Ryan Miller, yet he is viewed as a top-5 goalie. What does that make Howard then?

The only ones in your list I would say are better than Howard are Lundqvist, Rask, Luongo, Price, and maybe Quick (he had one great season, his others are above average).

Finally, for you to say that a goalie in the 11-20 range is average is just absurd. If the NHL is the best hockey league in the world (which I hope most of us believe to be true), then would not the 30 or so starting goalies in that league be amongst the best goalies in the world as well? Yes, you can give or take a few who are late bloomers, don't want to come to North America, whatever it may be...but the NHL goalies are the best in the world. This means that if you are the 15th best goalie in the NHL (just for argument's sake), would you not be an elite goalie by definition that you are probably a top 15-20 goalie in the world?

I am done trying to convince you of Howard's ability, do the math and some research and if you still don't see it then we can agree to disagree. Clearly Red Wings brass believes as I do, since Howard signed a nice shiny $5mil/year deal a little while back. Unless you believe average goalies make elite goalie money?

Howard as the 6th best goalie in the NHL? LOL. I suggest you go and have a chat with any NHL person about that. That is insane. His numbers compare because of the team he has had in the past. Period. He does not compare to any of the top 9 at a bare minimum. Noone in the NHL will tell you any different than that. He is in the middle range of NHL starting goalies. That is that. Maybe the top end of the middle, but the middle none the less.

Even the Wings fan above disagrees with you. And what about Ryan Miller? You miss him. Only got a chance to win the Vezina on the worst team in the league. But Howard is better than him.

Don't let facts get in the way of opinion.

I think Howard is in the Top10 Goalies. I'm not gonna take part in this debate. Just stated my opinion.

RomaGoth wrote:We have lost Rafalski, Stuart, and Lidstrom in the last 3 seasons and Howard has still put up good numbers and kept this team competitive.

You say "we". So you're a Wings fan?

Sorry but even as a Wings fan you can't use numbers to justify goalie stats. Save % varies VERY little between people, I mean you're talking 90% being bad and 93% being the best in the league, not an epic difference when you factor in other things. Same with GAA which doesn't show how many saves or shut outs as well. I think one of the best indicators for goalies is simply longevity and playoff wins where they are facing tough opponents consistently. Miller is considered better because he has been on a bad team for awhile now but still puts up good numbers. The Leaf goalie rotation is doing it this year once, lets see one of them start every game for 10 years like Miller.

What I will say positively about Howard (even though Top 15 isn't a real knock in the entire world), is that he most definitntley top 10 in "total value", that is factoring age, playoffs, and consistency. If you did a fantasy draft type of thing with NHL GMs I think Howard would be taken in the top 10 over some of the older and unproven guys.

He simply lets too many soft goals in and back in the day watching the best of the best that didn't happen. If you had a winner take all game right now he just isn't Top 10 without argument, batdad is saying he is top 15, take that as a win. I think some would take him as top 10, and some wouldn't. I think he can maybe grow into one and if the Wings win say two Stanley Cups with him, he will be considered great without a doubt. This above paragraph is why the Wings signed him to the $5m/per year deal, because he is definitely an NHL starter, what else would they do without him?

You are also reading too much into the word "average", you just said the top 15-20 goalies should be called elite. Um what? Then what do you call the top 5? Top 2? Being in the middle of the pack would be the average, not everyone can be called "great", obviously they are all talented that is why they are there and this is what comes of w hen you compare the best of the best.

RomaGoth wrote:Don't let facts get in the way of opinion.

Facts? or Stats? if you really mean stats...well then, I guess it is clear that the best players in the NHL right now include the names:

Ben Scrivens (3rd best GAA in league right now), Andersson from Anaheim, JOhnny Boychuk, Brent Seabrook and Chris Kunitz (top 5 in plus minus), Alex Steen (7th in goals).

If you mean facts...you are in trouble. Because every single NHL and hockey talent evaluator does not have just facts. They have emotion, they have projection, they have intangibles, they have quickness, technical skill and they have at the very very end of all of that....stats.

If you want to judge the top 10 goalies in the NHL based on statsm which is really the only way you can quantify what you are calling facts....here is who you have.

GAA

Schneider
Scrivens
Bishop
Andersson
Eliott
Rask
Khudobin
Quick

So why are those guys not there? Those are the facts. One of those ten made an Olympic team. I guess all the guys there that are putting guys on the Olympic teams are WRONG by selecting Howard for USA.

Because off the list of GAA it is pretty clear the USA goalies should be

1. Schneider
2. Bishop
3 Quick

Canada should have
Scrivens, Elliott, and Fleury

Sweden

Andersson, Lack, Lundqvist

Now the other facts...save percentage

1.SCrivens
2. Harding
3. Bishop
4. Rask
5. Andersson
6. Khudobin
7, Bernier
8. Schneider
9.Price
10 Varlamov

hey look at that....the top 10 goalies.

USA--Schenider,Bishop, and Miller (wow got one this time)
Canada-Scrivens, Harding, Price (wow got one)
Sweden-Andersson, Lack, Lehner (oops)

if you want take out the guys with less than 25 games played

1. Scrivens
2. harding
3. Bishop
4. Bernier
5. Price
6. Varlamov
7. Miller
8. Lundqvist
9. Fleury
10. Mason

Hmm...where is Howard?

On this list he would be #17. So of the starters in the league (Scrivens may be the exception on the list, but really he has been a starter in LA and in Edm re Quick injury and lack of competition in Edm)

you have Howard right where I said based on FACTS...oops I mean stats.

So what praytell are the facts?

Lets look at the goalies and the stats based on age then.

Over 30 on that list...scratch em off. Use save percentage and where is Howard?

Oh right...14th or 13th.

Right where I said he would be.

Oh. strength of team in front of him and where is Howard?

How about strength of conference too?

West goalies get a bump big time, because way better than the east. The stats prove it.

So bump the west guys up a bit and you end up with Howard and his almost in the playoff team where?

Right...exactly where I placed him. IN THE MIDDLE>

MIDDLE IS AVERAGE.

So base it on facts of age, stats, strength of team strength of conference, strength of whatever...he is an average starter right now in the NHL. And always has been.

Wins some, loses some.

Now factor in intangibles like experience, big game performances, compete level, mental attitude, strength of character, leadership....

Oh wait, how do YOU do that? you know all these guys?

Sure some GMs might sign Howard based on his age or potential because there is potential to be a top level goalie, but RIGHT NOW....he is not a top level elite goalie.

He is in with the average goalies of the NHL in every level right now. Which is what I said.

"Andersson" is actually Andersén and hes Danish nice post otherwise, except that you forgot Lehner

batdad wrote:No he is just an average goalie. Sorry. He is about 10th -15th in my feeling on a list of the best goalies in the world. That makes him average.

Is he better than any of these:

Rinne, Rask, Bob, Hiller, Quick. Miller, Price, Smith, Crawford, Niemi, Luongo, Schneider, Lundqvist, Varlamov, Ward, Bishop, Fleury, Anderson, Halak, Elliott, Harding

He is better than Smith, Crawford, Niemi, Schneider, Varlamov, Bishop, Fleury, Anderson, Halak, Elliot, and Harding on that list. I'd take him over any of those. Some of those on that list are quite frankly Osgoods that benefit from their strong teams. Crawford for example would struggle elsewhere on a different team and system, and is more of a "fit" than anything in CHI. Fleury's play speaks for himself, even PIT fans largely don't want him and would like an upgrade.

Rinne (maybe? Not sure when he comes back now honestly), Miller, Luongo, Lundqvist are guys I'd say are clearly ahead of Howard.

Guys like Rask, Hiller, Quick, Price, Ward are guys I guess I'd put all lumped together in same tier with Howard. That's... I guess 10 between those 2 groups. Price, Ward, and Hiller can all carry inferior teams like Howard. Quick's stock bounces around now after seeing all his backups succeed some too. Rask is on a good team and maybe on the verge of going into the elite group.

Brodeur is irrelevant to the convo because he's at the absolute end of his line IMO.

Watch some games, batdad. Watch some games. You can *see* the difference still watching play. There is no weighing the value of each individual save, unfortunately. tT least, not yet.

Stats are nice and kinda' lazy to be honest, and goalie stats are more a product of the team than the goalie themselves anymore. They are a part of the equation, but not the full equation. There *are* no elite goalies like Roy or Hasek anymore that are so far above the others it's not even a question.

Howard at the same level as Rask? I can't stop laughing, rly i can't. Rask is up at the top top top tier.

Some of the Wings fans here are starting to sound alot like Leaf fans. Our guys are the best. Watch games....blah blah.

It is as though I do not watch games. My favorite line of defense. watch games.

How about take the homer glasses off when you watch games boys

Howard is proving right now...he belongs between 11-15 or so RIGHT NOW.

And any hockey guy would not tell you much different, except they would say...because of his age if I was rebuilding a team I would rather have him over Luongo or one of the older dudes.

But...RIGHT NOW...evaluated as a goalie..he is 11-15.

That is enough about Howard.

Chicago in Phoenix off to watch two goalies who are clearly worse than Howard.

batdad wrote:Rinne, Rask, Bob, Hiller, Quick. Miller, Price, Smith, Crawford, Niemi, Luongo, Schneider, Lundqvist, Varlamov, Ward, Bishop, Fleury, Anderson, Halak, Elliott, Harding

RomaGoth wrote:Here are some links since you seem to name random goalies:

Those random goalies are among the best this season in the NHL.(Not all of them though) Yeah, really "random".

Don't fall in their trolls traps batdad! I still can't believe some people here ask you to "watch more games". LOL

philou21 wrote:

batdad wrote:Rinne, Rask, Bob, Hiller, Quick. Miller, Price, Smith, Crawford, Niemi, Luongo, Schneider, Lundqvist, Varlamov, Ward, Bishop, Fleury, Anderson, Halak, Elliott, Harding

RomaGoth wrote:Here are some links since you seem to name random goalies:

Those random goalies are among the best this season in the NHL.(Not all of them though) Yeah, really "random".

Don't fall in their trolls traps batdad! I still can't believe some people here ask you to "watch more games". LOL

Sorry to disappoint, but I am not a troll. I was referring to CAREER statistics, not just this season.

philou21 wrote:Don't fall in their trolls traps batdad! I still can't believe some people here ask you to "watch more games". LOL

batdad is still calling DET a "puck possession" team. I'm sorry, I must have missed this being 2009 still. DET has not been that puck possession team in YEARS now, and this season even moreso. It's laughable. At that point, it's kinda' difficult to take an argument seriously as I watch guys them chip the puck in and chase it night after night. I don't know how anyone could have watched DET and make that claim.

Everything I'm hearing anymore is reverence and respect for the crest and the colors, but has no relevance to the current on-ice product. batdad is still thinking of the DET teams of the past. The front office batdad has so much faith in because of the past is literally half gone now, off to other organizations between TB and DAL. Maybe it's not homerism, maybe it's past achievements clouding an outsider's view.


You want some perspective AND stats, BTW? Jimmy Howard is already 4th all-time in DET history in Wins and is 20 Wins away from 3rd behind only Sawchuk and Osgood (surpassing Harry Lumley). Osgood played 565 Games to get to 2nd... Howard is at only 267 GP so far.

Howard sports a better career GAA on the team than Sawchuk, Osgood, Vernon, and Joseph, 5th all-time for goalies who have played 100+ games with the team. He is 6th in Shutouts and with 3 more would move to 4th behind... Sawchuk, Osgood, and Lumley. His .918 Save puts him tied for FIRST ALL-TIME on the team for goalies who have played 100+ Games with the org, and the guy he's tied with (Manny Legace) has nearly 100 less games to count against it.

Howard looks to be the best goalie DET's had long-term in the past 3 or 4 decades. And he's doing it on teams that aren't constant Cup contenders. He'll turn 30 in March. We fans know what we have in him. Well, the ones that watch a lot of games and don't scream "SHOOT!" at the TV constantly do anyways.


RE: Rask, as I said he's veeeery close to being in the top tier. Another full season of success would help that, if nothing else. He needs to keep his level a bit longer IMO. He hasn't been The Guy for that long honestly. Geez... sometimes you need a wee bit more of a sample size. He's never played more than 40-some games in a season before.

On a lighter note, have y'all seen this?

pantsukki wrote:On a lighter note, have y'all seen this?

Hahaha! Thanks that made my day!

Torts came to us saying he's starting with those idiots bouhahaha that made me laugh! Who's the guy saying that by the way not that much smarter. Man that vid was awesome, nice job by the guy who made it.

philou21 wrote:Torts came to us saying he's starting with those idiots bouhahaha that made me laugh! Who's the guy saying that by the way not that much smarter.

Must be one of Vancouver's "tough guys" (or idiots.. ).