EHM The Blue Line

Well... let's be honest here I guess.

Even over on the OOTP forums the mood with most users does not seem to be a good one. I now see someone openly has questioned the current "beta" build and rightly called it the alpha it probably is. He's right, a beta is far more stable than FHM currently is. As it stands with all the crashes it's an alpha. And again, I'm a bit disappointed they let these builds out this early with the way they are because word-of-mouth is going to spread how buggy these builds are.

The lack of chatter over there though is... not encouraging. What is there then also seems to be leaning towards the negative.

batdad, the UI isn't horrible but it needs a lot of work. I've barely ever played OOTP and the UI doesn't take a ton to learn or get used to. I already instinctively go to certain screens without thinking about it. I've been holding out hope that FHM1 would mostly equal EHM 2005. But as time goes on here, I'm getting the feeling it's going to be more the original NHL EHM which was quite a mess honestly. And I'm wondering if the preorder beta won't end up being a mistake for OOTP. Sure they get money sooner but I'm wondering if they'll lose some serious interest even before the final hits. And while FHM will be fine then, it won't bode well for its assumed successor because you only get one chance for a first impression.

Primis wrote:Well... let's be honest here I guess.

Even over on the OOTP forums the mood with most users does not seem to be a good one. I now see someone openly has questioned the current "beta" build and rightly called it the alpha it probably is. He's right, a beta is far more stable than FHM currently is. As it stands with all the crashes it's an alpha. And again, I'm a bit disappointed they let these builds out this early with the way they are because word-of-mouth is going to spread how buggy these builds are.

The lack of chatter over there though is... not encouraging. What is there then also seems to be leaning towards the negative.

batdad, the UI isn't horrible but it needs a lot of work. I've barely ever played OOTP and the UI doesn't take a ton to learn or get used to. I already instinctively go to certain screens without thinking about it. I've been holding out hope that FHM1 would mostly equal EHM 2005. But as time goes on here, I'm getting the feeling it's going to be more the original NHL EHM which was quite a mess honestly. And I'm wondering if the preorder beta won't end up being a mistake for OOTP. Sure they get money sooner but I'm wondering if they'll lose some serious interest even before the final hits. And while FHM will be fine then, it won't bode well for its assumed successor because you only get one chance for a first impression.

The game being beta or alpha is not the problem per say. The crashes are not the problem. They will get fixed eventually.
The obvious desire to stick to what is a OOTP copycat at the moment is what I found unsettling. They have two very good games in EHM 05 and 07 and what worked or not there. There is the community that played the whole EHM franchise, people involved in updating rosters, DB, ratings, writing scripts and whatnot for those HOCKEY games. Most of those people expressed many ideas and suggestions already. As of now though, they seem to be occupied with minor glitches while the game lacks any meaningful depth at the moment.

The UI. It's terribad. I understand that people that are coming from OOTP background might be used to it but it is just too cumbersome. For a game that does not present any game rating to have to click a thousand times to gather the information on which you can try to rate your players is...and that;s not even the worst part. Navigating trough the league,team,roster,tactics,players, etc screen is just tiresome and confusing and not user-friendly at all.

It's just beta. The game ain't finished yet. Hopefully come September we will have a nice new hockey sim that will start a whole new franchise that will get better and better with each new release.

m0fownz0r wrote:They have two very good games in EHM 05 and 07 and what worked or not there.

The OOTP team has no connection at all to EHM - there's no inherent reason for them to put any weight behind it, other than the fact that it was a working game. But if that's what they need, then they don't need to look any further than their own game, OOTP Baseball. As far as this genre goes, I think OOTP Baseball is light years ahead of EHM. Gasp, I know that's blasphemy to speak against our emperor of the last ten-or-so years, but it's true.

m0foownz0r wrote:The UI. It's terribad. I understand that people that are coming from OOTP background might be used to it but it is just too cumbersome. For a game that does not present any game rating to have to click a thousand times to gather the information on which you can try to rate your players is...and that;s not even the worst part. Navigating trough the league,team,roster,tactics,players, etc screen is just tiresome and confusing and not user-friendly at all.

I think a lot of this goes back to what I said above about the "foundation". The interface we have now really is mostly a copy-paste from OOTP Baseball, likely just to get something in there. While the overall OOTP flavor will probably remain, the gaps and rough edges will undoubtedly be worked out.

I have a small question. I am looking for a head coach for my team and I am playing in England. There's 4 available coach, all their stats are at 0 and when I right click on their name to hire them, nothing happens... What's wrong, is it a bug?

Alex the Tall wrote:I have a small question. I am looking for a head coach for my team and I am playing in England. There's 4 available coach, all their stats are at 0 and when I right click on their name to hire them, nothing happens... What's wrong, is it a bug?

You can't hire coaches right now. Or Owners apparently if you whack you current one. Mike Illitch is in the DB and I whacked the fake name owner of the Red Wings to make Illitch owner, and he disappeared altogether.

m0fownz0r wrote:The game being beta or alpha is not the problem per say. The crashes are not the problem. They will get fixed eventually.

I couldn't disagree more.

For me personally, had I known the "beta" was actually a fairly unstable alpha... the fact is I probably would not have preordered. "Beta" tends to insinuate a certain level of stability these builds have yet to have. To me a beta needs to be stable with most of the stuff in place, with an incomplete DB and you'll maybe tweak a few things or squash a few odd bugs. A beta is not something nobody can get to run and stay running and with half the game disabled.

As it stands right now they have 5 months until the stated September release. With the sample of progress I've been seeing, I have my doubts that's going to possibly be enough time. There's simply so much work that needs to be done on it. Now I could be wrong and productivity could accelerate once OOTP is all released and good but... I have serious doubts there thus far because history shows in similar circumstances that's rarely how it ends up working.

It's really, really hard to get past the first impression of this game with it crashing constantly and not much of anything working. It makes it very difficult to see where they're going to actually improve any things.

I really hope someone from OOTP gets pointed over here and reads our threads, not even respond but just READ what's being said and digest it. I have no desire to post some of these concerns over on the OOTP forums because it'll just bring zealots out in defense and nothing will actually come of it.

Primis wrote:As it stands right now they have 5 months until the stated September release. With the sample of progress I've been seeing, I have my doubts that's going to possibly be enough time. There's simply so much work that needs to be done on it. Now I could be wrong and productivity could accelerate once OOTP is all released and good but... I have serious doubts there thus far because history shows in similar circumstances that's rarely how it ends up working.

Personally, I'm not all that fussed by the beta/alpha thing. I thought that Jeff's warning about the state of the game was fairly clear about what to expect. And I think that a large number of the bugs/instability may have been introduced following the inclusion of new features which were added not all that long before the first public beta.

I do share your doubts about what is going to happen over the next 5 months. It's really hard to judge because only the devs can gauge what can and can't be achieved by September. I've never expected an immediate successor to EHM 2007 with the first version, but I'd hoped for at least an EHM 2004 equivalent. I'm trying to keep an open mind but there is always at the back of my mind the thought that time is slipping away.

The science/thinking behind the game is really very neat and huge step forward over EHM (especially the modular/customisable approach to league rules/structure/etc and the improved Current Ability system). No doubt that has taken, and will continue to take, a great deal of their development time. I would have thought that the historical part of the game must be taking a lot of time too. Although, personally, I'd have rather seen a complete and polished hockey sim before the historical mode was developed (I had thought I'd read somewhere the original view that the devs wouldn't consider the historical mode until the core game was complete).

I dunno; I'm feeling like most people here and perhaps on the OOTP Forums are downbeat about the release right now. Not so much about the state of the beta but more about what will be achieved in time for September.

archibalduk wrote:

Primis wrote:As it stands right now they have 5 months until the stated September release. With the sample of progress I've been seeing, I have my doubts that's going to possibly be enough time. There's simply so much work that needs to be done on it. Now I could be wrong and productivity could accelerate once OOTP is all released and good but... I have serious doubts there thus far because history shows in similar circumstances that's rarely how it ends up working.

Personally, I'm not all that fussed by the beta/alpha thing. I thought that Jeff's warning about the state of the game was fairly clear about what to expect. And I think that a large number of the bugs/instability may have been introduced following the inclusion of new features which were added not all that long before the first public beta.

I do share your doubts about what is going to happen over the next 5 months. It's really hard to judge because only the devs can gauge what can and can't be achieved by September. I've never expected an immediate successor to EHM 2007 with the first version, but I'd hoped for at least an EHM 2004 equivalent. I'm trying to keep an open mind but there is always at the back of my mind the thought that time is slipping away.

The science/thinking behind the game is really very neat and huge step forward over EHM (especially the modular/customisable approach to league rules/structure/etc and the improved Current Ability system). No doubt that has taken, and will continue to take, a great deal of their development time. I would have thought that the historical part of the game must be taking a lot of time too. Although, personally, I'd have rather seen a complete and polished hockey sim before the historical mode was developed (I had thought I'd read somewhere the original view that the devs wouldn't consider the historical mode until the core game was complete).

I dunno; I'm feeling like most people here and perhaps on the OOTP Forums are downbeat about the release right now. Not so much about the state of the beta but more about what will be achieved in time for September.

On a further look, this game is much more than meets the eye. It already has accomplished things that EHM could not. It fixed the stupid regen system EHM had, and added a little more spice of realism. One thing that really stood out was the contract negotiations. For once, we can finally negotiate in real time! No more offering a contract, and waiting 4 days for a response. Not to mention, the players never even gave you sufficient details on why they refused a contract (in EHM). In FHM, they actually tell you if they wan't more/less years, if they wan't more money, if they are happy/unhappy, etc...Also, take a careful look at the drafting. It isn't perfect, but there is much more behind the system you currently see. Teams are not only picking based on their team needs, but they are making logical, coherent choices. Just like a human GM. In EHM, I was ALWAYS able to play the computer AI in the draft. I would sit there and laugh, while they drafted players with horrible stat/attribute combos, or would bypass a perfectly good player for one substantially worse. When I looked into some of the computer's choices in FHM, it all made sense. I could totally see why the computer was picking certain players. Just like in real life, I can see the reasons why certain teams pick certain players. Maybe the player is a little short on the attribute/stat side, but has strong work ethic and high potential.

With some fine tuning, and some minor additions, I think this game has what it takes to surpass EHM 07.

Just a few quick notes and suggestions.
I wonder, with the game engine being that rudimentary at this point, do tactics even matter at all ?
UI is a bit clunky I agree, requires way too many clicks to do simple tasks, and dragging players around the line up screen doesn't work exactly as conveniently as it should. Although that's not a major issue IMO, I don't assume it's too difficult to re-arrange certain things and add some links, so you can jump between certain screens that should be somehow connected more comfortably. Other than that it feels a bit cold, for instance I don't really get a response when offering a player a contract extension It was probably due to the fact that this particular player's profile was saying "wants to test free agency" right from the beginning but he still didn't even reply which seems unrealistic, and turned from happy to unhappy after my first offer (on a raise from 3m to 6m)

Bugs I noticed
- Some DB issues (wrong positions, some players that are basically done still playing like Savard or Pronger)
- Can't select players for shootout (or maybe I'm blind)
- No notifications about injuries in the play by play window, if you don't go to the line up screen every 5 minutes you won't notice someone is injured
- Getting to the player stats screen during play illogical, they should be somewhere at the top you shouldn't have to dig for them
- Lack of player ratings
- Can't skip to the next day if there are holes in the line up, even if I actually want to keep spots open (don't wanna designate a third PK unit for example)
- Can't skip to the next day if there are injured players in the line up, even if it's just a minor injury and said player will be ready to play the next game
- Players seem to disappear from the line up after or during games at times, randomly, last time I noticed 2-3 Dmen with 30 minutes ice time after the game, when I checked the line up I noticed it was because the system just deleted my third pairing so those guys only played on special teams
- Trades seem easy when the AI is willing to part with a player, on the other hand, the AI dismisses interest in certain players pretty quickly, so you probably couldn't trade, say Crosby for Backes because St. Louis wouldn't even enter negotiations about him. I would assume if a GM makes some phone calls the GM at the other end doesn't just hang up just because you inquire about one of his better players. Cept if you're Burkie and someone is offering Malkin for Clarke MacArthur.

Please don't take this as complaining, the game is at a stage where I was expecting it to be more or less, just a few suggestions off the top of my head

Danny wrote:- Trades seem easy when the AI is willing to part with a player, on the other hand, the AI dismisses interest in certain players pretty quickly, so you probably couldn't trade, say Crosby for Backes because St. Louis wouldn't even enter negotiations about him. I would assume if a GM makes some phone calls the GM at the other end doesn't just hang up just because you inquire about one of his better players. Cept if you're Burkie and someone is offering Malkin for Clarke MacArthur.

The trade AI is a known work in progress, as are player valuations.

Last time I did a game I traded for Bouwmeester. New game, and CGY won't even consider trading him or talking about it, which I found odd considering circumstances haven't changed. By the same token, both games the Sabres were more than happy to discuss Tyler Myers, and the Wild more than happy to discuss Ryan Suter.

I don't know how I feel about the quick popup denial on certain players. On one hand, it shuts down pretty quickly the possibility of the human player trying to trade to acquire top guys he probably has no business going after. On the other hand, those kind of guys *do* get traded in real life on a fairly regular basis. I'm not sure what the proper balance there is/should be.

This also may sound dumb but, after a while in games once I've built up (in both freeware and 2007) I often begin engaging in lopsided trades not in my own favor, to help out certain CPU teams or to just really screw over one of the other teams' divisional rivals or something ("What's that, Pittsburgh? You're getting tired of me stockpiling PHI through trades? DON'T CARE!"). The idea that I couldn't trade X for Y because Y is viewed locally as untouchable, even though X is far superior in every way, seems odd to me and I think I'd miss that part of the game.

Yesterday I got my first crash with this game. I forgot to assign my d-men to pairs since i bought new ones and I was checking for the best lines, and I forgot about those and just played the game forward and boom! Another thing is that you cannot scout Finnish leagues

For example, right click, hit scout, hit "All available scouts" is a nice and quick way to scout players while still allowing for depth by clicking individual scouts and queing jobs
or what archi said with the team clicking
One click dress/scratching
Fast line switching could be helpful
(Having a head coach would be helpful too, but I know that will be implemented later....and if its not )
Multiple GM's too
Actual September 2012 rosters
The ability to sign players from another league lower than you if your the AHL (unable to sign a grizzlie player I need as a heat, beacuse...)
Cant call up players from a lower affiliate if they are not yours, even if you put them there (I move down X, cant call him back up because he belongs to Calgary and not me, not sure if intentional)
The game also doesnt allow you to call up players UNLESS youre in the roster management category, which is dumb, cause I cant click on Utah, and call up a player, I have to navigate
Also why cant I put a scout in charge of scouting? or an assistant gm in charge of trades? I can only put one coach on everything. I edited the game to make this guy Troy Ward so it works for the heat, but yeah
No possible way to set tatics for all of a certain situation or all lines, so I have to individually change all my lines to have high forcheck in all situations

And thats just what I can see without simming a day on my save

just copying this over

Alright, I know in OOTP Baseball you could change injuries in Commissioner mode. Not saying I always liked that, but there are cases I feel it should be used. For instance, a player in the world for a different team (19 y/o forward) just suffered a Cut Ear, out for 10 months, then turns into Career ending injury. I got a chuckle from it, but I found it completely ridiculous. Is that not an option we're getting in the franchise, or just not yet?

That was one nasty cut hahaha

No joke. Must have lost his ear, haha.

There's a lot of Commissioner Mode that hasn't been enabled yet. Perhaps it'll make an appearance.

As for the injuries, I think they're still quite buggy. I tend to disable injuries from the Game Settings.

I noticed an error. Whie looking at the Finnish SM-Liiga teams I noticed that they weren't in alphabetical order.
Finnsh teams with only capital letters in their team name comes before the other teams. Like TPS comes before Tappara. JYP comes before Jokerit.
So the second letter being a captial letter means the game thinks it comes before A in the alphabet. Didn't look in other leagues, but I'm sure the same error occurs there also.

Yeah I seem to remember seeing a similar thing with player names where the first letter of the surname is lower case. I'll check the bug reports and will log it if it hasn't already been reported.