EHM The Blue Line

archibalduk wrote:Sounds like FHM 2 is delayed by a couple of months: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/f ... ost3876140

To be fair, Sebastian doesn't actually state that the game will be delayed several months. It is after May, so obviously it IS delayed, however.

I've been of the opinion that he should be shooting for a fall release all along, go for the traditional start-of-season release date. There would be some ticked off people, but it isn't like the buying public's opinions could get much lower at the moment, anyway.

Anybody here into racing management games? You'll probably remember this gem: http://www.gprm.co.uk

It's been over 10 years in "development" and people over there still have hope.

It's all I remember each and every time I hear something about FHM

archibalduk wrote:Sounds like FHM 2 is delayed by a couple of months: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/f ... ost3876140

This quote from Sebastian was interesting "Andreas and Jorin do this feature, bad thing, Andreas needed a well deserved vacation after his stressful months work on OOTP 16" Why would you go on vacation when you are trying to get a game out on time. That's a weird time to take a vacation if you ask me.

Well, he also says that he's not alone in the ability to work on this either so there is somebody starting to tackle it at least.

Its a very interesting approach, actually. "We made YOU promises that WE cannot keep. So we learned from the past and now we are just not going to make any more promises." Without promises, they cannot be held to any expectations by the people who buy the game so from that aspect, with zero set expectations for the game and its release date, after all the work that went into OOTP16 and with them wrapping the development on THAT game in July, I'd say that this is the perfect time for him to take a break.

I spent some time reading through the original posts about the game and there are so many eyebrow raising comments in there by the development team that explains so much about the direction that the game has taken. It is just a shame that it is tied to a franchise like OOTPD who now has to try and turn out something. They are a fantastic company and Markus has done a great job with dealing with an inferior product in the past, mainly OOTP 6.0 which was released under SI and was almost completely unplayable. They realized their mistake, stepped in, took control of their franchise back and released 6.5 which was amazing as I recall so they have a blueprint for repair if needed.

Smetana--are there any people left that they can upset? Or have they reached critical mass on that?

batdad wrote:Smetana--are there any people left that they can upset? Or have they reached critical mass on that?

I hear there's one guy. He's Russian and a diehard SKA St. Petersburg fan.

LOL, think he is already passed the point of being upset.

Smetana wrote:

archibalduk wrote:Sounds like FHM 2 is delayed by a couple of months: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/f ... ost3876140

To be fair, Sebastian doesn't actually state that the game will be delayed several months. It is after May, so obviously it IS delayed, however.

I've been of the opinion that he should be shooting for a fall release all along, go for the traditional start-of-season release date. There would be some ticked off people, but it isn't like the buying public's opinions could get much lower at the moment, anyway.

You're absolutely right. I misread the bit about "months" (it was in relation to Andreas' work and not in relation to FHM).

batdad wrote:Smetana--are there any people left that they can upset? Or have they reached critical mass on that?

Hehe, not many left at this point, no.

I myself am not upset because it's just a piece of software, it's really nothing to raise your blood pressure about.

That said, I've put a rubbish-ton of hours into the NHL database for FHM2 for two reasons: One, because I'm strange and I'm hardwired to do things of this nature. Second, because I am holding out hope that FHM will emerge as a solid title. They really are doing some impressive things behind the scenes, but they have to see it through to a polished final product. Most people, understandably, don't believe this will happen, and the onus is certainly on the development team to prove them wrong.

LOl. You forgot the third...you are an insane nerd, just like the rest of us.

Smetana wrote:

batdad wrote:Smetana--are there any people left that they can upset? Or have they reached critical mass on that?

Hehe, not many left at this point, no.

I myself am not upset because it's just a piece of software, it's really nothing to raise your blood pressure about.

That said, I've put a rubbish-ton of hours into the NHL database for FHM2 for two reasons: One, because I'm strange and I'm hardwired to do things of this nature. Second, because I am holding out hope that FHM will emerge as a solid title. They really are doing some impressive things behind the scenes, but they have to see it through to a polished final product. Most people, understandably, don't believe this will happen, and the onus is certainly on the development team to prove them wrong.

I dont think it is as much anger as it is disappointment. OOTPD has a reputation, a loyal following, and a community that helps improve their product with quick starts, graphics, and stadiums. Projects like this tend to tarnish the reputation of the company within their closed community that is active in creating, modding or just posting Franchise Threads which I have enjoyed doing for about the last twelve years. There are people on the FHM board who have hundreds (and in some cases thousands) of forum posts and you know they're not all for FHM.

That said, thanks for your hard work, insanity, and consistent stance of support for the product. Its very admirable.

batdad wrote:LOl. You forgot the third...you are an insane nerd, just like the rest of us.

Well, yeah, there's that as well.

SkierP20 wrote:

Smetana wrote:

batdad wrote:Smetana--are there any people left that they can upset? Or have they reached critical mass on that?

Hehe, not many left at this point, no.

I myself am not upset because it's just a piece of software, it's really nothing to raise your blood pressure about.

That said, I've put a rubbish-ton of hours into the NHL database for FHM2 for two reasons: One, because I'm strange and I'm hardwired to do things of this nature. Second, because I am holding out hope that FHM will emerge as a solid title. They really are doing some impressive things behind the scenes, but they have to see it through to a polished final product. Most people, understandably, don't believe this will happen, and the onus is certainly on the development team to prove them wrong.

I dont think it is as much anger as it is disappointment. OOTPD has a reputation, a loyal following, and a community that helps improve their product with quick starts, graphics, and stadiums. Projects like this tend to tarnish the reputation of the company within their closed community that is active in creating, modding or just posting Franchise Threads which I have enjoyed doing for about the last twelve years. There are people on the FHM board who have hundreds (and in some cases thousands) of forum posts and you know they're not all for FHM.

That said, thanks for your hard work, insanity, and consistent stance of support for the product. Its very admirable.

I agree mostly that folks are more disappointed than angry. Some are angry. Very angry. Like "You shot my dog" angry, seemingly. This always makes me laugh, and I tend to troll people like this vigorously. There are so many things in the world to be angry about, things that really matter. Why waste energy on a computer game.

I do have a consistent stance of support for FHM. Despite its short-but-infamous track record, I think it has potential. I think Sebastian, Jeff, and Malte have the right idea. They just have to get the job done. I believe in them. When it's all said and done, I certainly could be left looking like a fool, I understand that.

But, then again, this is the internet. Everybody has to take their turn looking like an idiot. It's only fair.

Smetana wrote:I agree mostly that folks are more disappointed than angry. Some are angry. Very angry. Like "You shot my dog" angry, seemingly. This always makes me laugh, and I tend to troll people like this vigorously. There are so many things in the world to be angry about, things that really matter. Why waste energy on a computer game.

Since I've followed along from day one I have rarely spoken up, and limited what I've said, yet I was recently called a troll on the FHM site, even though I didn't resort to the namecalling, hyperbole and excessive dramatics that so many do. I think "troll language" is just completely wrong, and anyone that does so is wrong to do so (whatever your justification for lowering yourself to such behavior, it seems wrong to me).

Now I work at an elementary school and have for years. I work with kids age 5-12 all day, and the namecalling and hyperbole/dramatics are not allowed (of course they occur, but there is a response/they're not allowed). So I think such language/discussion isn't something that should be allowed/encouraged. At the FHM site it happens frequently and even the mods/developers write in such a way at times, while at TBL it's always frowned upon (you're expected to make your point without trolling word choices)...I prefer TBL's style by an immense amount



My concern recently/at present with FHM, summed up, is I don't see the "learning" that's been done by the recent/current actions. So I stated such, and supported my views (I'm big on "proof" as a major researcher/tester as well as editor). Things like the complete lack of reference to the long outstanding patch (still!) & the restarting of the PR for FHM2 seven months after it first started but yet with the same font issues don't provide a positive feeling about what's been learned/what's different...

That whole conversation I had on FHM can't happen if I don't bring up facts/ask any questions, BUT it also doesn't happen if Sebastian doesn't say "in a few weeks" and if he gives the answer he gave about the Match Engine when first asked by others instead of eight days later...this too doesn't provide a positive feeling.
I could go on, but won't and don't want to.



I spend thousands of hours a year as a volunteer working on databases, I get that/share that with you completely!
IMO Smetana mostly your FHM posts have been fair and reasonable; IMO you've been the best "voice" for FHM I've read

And I don't now and wouldn't in the future think of you as a fool for believing in FHM, not at all!
That's why the "we gave refunds" angle doesn't matter to some of us because we were OK with supporting game development.

I just wish I didn't have to "read between the lines" for the truth, or read beyond the PR for the truth.
Clearly for diehards like me the game is YEARS away from what is wanted, and yet it'll still be purchased by said diehards to support development.

I accept that most every site isn't like TBL, but that doesn't mean I have to like it! HaHa
I've rarely posted on the FHM site since before you arrived on the scene, but as a total/complete hockey simulator nerd I've followed everything closely.
Despite the bad taste in my mouth from recent events I still support game development

Everything you posted above looks fair to me, Nino. We have differing attitudes toward FHM, but you always present your opinions in a respectful manner. It's appreciated.

Yes, sometimes I do get irritated when people post in what I perceive as a disrespectful/ignorant manner, and I'll sometimes comment in a "trollish" way. I try to minimize it, but I'll never eliminate it. Ah well, life goes on

nino33 wrote:
Now I work at an elementary school and have for years. I work with kids age 5-12 all day, and the namecalling and hyperbole/dramatics are not allowed (of course they occur, but there is a response/they're not allowed). So I think such language/discussion isn't something that should be allowed/encouraged. At the FHM site it happens frequently and even the mods/developers write in such a way at times, while at TBL it's always frowned upon (you're expected to make your point without trolling word choices)...I prefer TBL's style by an immense amount

There are A LOT of threads/posts that were made by Sebastian where he would make personal attacks/generally be unprofessional that have since been deleted by the moderators over at the FHM board.

nino33 wrote: My concern recently/at present with FHM, summed up, is I don't see the "learning" that's been done by the recent/current actions. So I stated such, and supported my views (I'm big on "proof" as a major researcher/tester as well as editor). Things like the complete lack of reference to the long outstanding patch (still!) & the restarting of the PR for FHM2 seven months after it first started but yet with the same font issues don't provide a positive feeling about what's been learned/what's different...

They learned, but they learned the wrong lesson. The devs see the problem as "people got mad because we promised things and didnt deliver." The actual lesson there is "we did not deliver the game that we promised. The community is not happy with it and they told us so." As I said before, it seems now their stance is "without expectations we cannot be accountable." Its a poor attitude to take. They might as well just say "We are releasing a game. You will know what it is and what its about when its released." It would be the same thing.

nino33 wrote: IMO Smetana mostly your FHM posts have been fair and reasonable; IMO you've been the best "voice" for FHM I've read

Finally THIS. YES. 1,000 times THIS.

nino33 wrote:I spend thousands of hours a year as a volunteer working on databases

This should have said "many hundreds of hours a year" or "I've spent thousands of hours over the years" - I only wish I could spend thousands of hours a year working on databases! I'd love one of those "time stopping watches" to let me put the world on pause for a bit HaHa

SkierP20 wrote:They learned, but they learned the wrong lesson. The devs see the problem as "people got mad because we promised things and didnt deliver." The actual lesson there is "we did not deliver the game that we promised. The community is not happy with it and they told us so." As I said before, it seems now their stance is "without expectations we cannot be accountable." Its a poor attitude to take. They might as well just say "We are releasing a game. You will know what it is and what its about when its released." It would be the same thing.

IMO it's not really "without expectations we cannot be accountable", as if you look there are some posts that note the improvements/differences/additions to FHM2.....and more importantly I think, IMO they could go completely silent and there'd still be expectations! There were expectations before the first FHM. It's a sports simulation game, it's a hockey game, and it's by OOTPD and all of these helped form expectations

The expectations are based on the game, it's a hockey simulator and that's what users will expect. There are different types of users for sure, but the first incarnation satisfied few from any type.....if the upcoming FHM2 is a decent hockey simulator, and they build upon that, eventually there'll be more talk about the game than the process

I'm actually of the opinion that they should post/PR far less, not more! HaHa

In the end it really will be about the quality of the game I think

nino33 wrote:

nino33 wrote:I spend thousands of hours a year as a volunteer working on databases

This should have said "many hundreds of hours a year" or "I've spent thousands of hours over the years" - I only wish I could spend thousands of hours a year working on databases! I'd love one of those "time stopping watches" to let me put the world on pause for a bit HaHa

Well, sometimes it feels like thousands, doesn't it?

The database for EHM2g pretty much cost me my first marriage...

People like you are a real asset to the development of the game.

I used to have a very similar attitude in that I was willing to put in the hours in the hope we'd see something really neat in the long run. However, having spent about 3 and a half years working on the research and testing, I started to feel that all my work had been largely for nothing. I'd already re-rated players twice over the years and couldn't really face doing it again because my efforts before had seemingly not been enjoyed by anybody (down to the reception of the game rather than the data itself). I'm still doing a bit every now and then as I'd like to see the data up to date ready for the next release, but it's not fun for me any more. I'm really hoping the next release will be a lot more positive as that is probably the motivation I'd need to start putting in more work again.

archibalduk wrote:People like you are a real asset to the development of the game.

I used to have a very similar attitude in that I was willing to put in the hours in the hope we'd see something really neat in the long run. However, having spent about 3 and a half years working on the research and testing, I started to feel that all my work had been largely for nothing. I'd already re-rated players twice over the years and couldn't really face doing it again because my efforts before had seemingly not been enjoyed by anybody (down to the reception of the game rather than the data itself). I'm still doing a bit every now and then as I'd like to see the data up to date ready for the next release, but it's not fun for me any more. I'm really hoping the next release will be a lot more positive as that is probably the motivation I'd need to start putting in more work again.

Same here

I don't really want to write anything because (rightly or not) some people will use my comments against us. But to at least clarify something:

1. We never said that FHM 2 will be released in May, we said our best estimate is a late May release.

2. The game is not months away.

3. Andreas (and Jorin) took over the work to port FaceGen from OOTP to FHM. Andreas had it's vacation booked a long time ago (for after the OOTP release), so nothing we can do about it.

4. The time we wait for Andreas to finish the work on FaceGen is good used to continue testing/tweaking the game.

5. I understand that we lost all faith from the people on this board. We will try to earn it back with FHM 2, it will be a long way but we will do our best. Maybe it is not enough but we will at least try.

Sebastian Palkowski wrote:I don't really want to write anything because (rightly or not) some people will use my comments against us. But to at least clarify something:

If they were able to use your comments against you the problem was with your comments

Sebastian Palkowski wrote:5. I understand that we lost all faith from the people on this board. We will try to earn it back with FHM 2, it will be a long way but we will do our best. Maybe it is not enough but we will at least try.

Actions speak louder than words; you really don't need to keep saying this over and over, just do it with your actions (i.e. the game will possibly help change peoples minds, your words don't help at all at this point)

Sebastian Palkowski wrote:I don't really want to write anything because (rightly or not) some people will use my comments against us. But to at least clarify something:

1. We never said that FHM 2 will be released in May, we said our best estimate is a late May release.

2. The game is not months away.

3. Andreas (and Jorin) took over the work to port FaceGen from OOTP to FHM. Andreas had it's vacation booked a long time ago (for after the OOTP release), so nothing we can do about it.

4. The time we wait for Andreas to finish the work on FaceGen is good used to continue testing/tweaking the game.

5. I understand that we lost all faith from the people on this board. We will try to earn it back with FHM 2, it will be a long way but we will do our best. Maybe it is not enough but we will at least try.

So since the things being worked out are FHM 2 only features where does FHM 14 stand?

We prepare it for release next to the work on FHM 2.

SkierP20 wrote:

Sebastian Palkowski wrote:I don't really want to write anything because (rightly or not) some people will use my comments against us. But to at least clarify something:

1. We never said that FHM 2 will be released in May, we said our best estimate is a late May release.

2. The game is not months away.

3. Andreas (and Jorin) took over the work to port FaceGen from OOTP to FHM. Andreas had it's vacation booked a long time ago (for after the OOTP release), so nothing we can do about it.

4. The time we wait for Andreas to finish the work on FaceGen is good used to continue testing/tweaking the game.

5. I understand that we lost all faith from the people on this board. We will try to earn it back with FHM 2, it will be a long way but we will do our best. Maybe it is not enough but we will at least try.

So since the things being worked out are FHM 2 only features where does FHM 14 stand?

Sebastian Palkowski wrote:We prepare it for release next to the work on FHM 2.

With the understanding that English is not your first language I assume you are saying that work on FHM 14 is happening at the same time as FHM 2.

Considering that the match engine is done for FHM 2, i would assume that it is done for FHM 14 as well.

Since FaceGen is not a part of FHM 14, and the eSeller fix obviously is there what else is on the plate for the FHM 14 update?