EHM The Blue Line

jhcjobpb wrote:

Peter_Doherty wrote:Quick question jhcjobpb, is McDonagh Rangers best and Strålman Rangers 4th best D-man?

Quick answer Yes. But I think Del Zotto is coming close to Strålman.

Aight, sounds good enough. Even though Del Zotto should be quite a bit worse then Strålman (and Moore) judging by this season atleast.

Del Zotto never came close to what he did in his rookie year, looks a little bit like Myers at Buffalo. I don't know what to think of him.

ElPayaso wrote:Perhaps you could make a list of all the Ducks defensemen as the one you did of Vancouver above? Would be a lot easier for me to sort them out and rate them. It's seems like Fistric is our 3rd best defender and so is definitely not the case. Also I don't know the CA/PA of other regulars like Lovejoy, Souray, Sbisa and Vatanen.

I'm bumping this cause I think it might have fallen between the chairs.

You want to do it...go ahead.

batdad wrote:You want to do it...go ahead.

Would you consider helping me with the list?

should be easy. just list Anaheim dmen and then comment on them and how they relate to players around the league. Not sure how me copying and pasting nhl.com anaheim roster would make things easier.

ElPayaso wrote:Perhaps you could make a list of all the Ducks defensemen as the one you did of Vancouver above?

(Contracted To) Anaheim Ducks D with 100+ CA - TBL Rosters 6.0
[table][tr][th]Player[/th][th]Team[/th][th]CA[/th][th]PA[/th][th]OFF[/th][th]DEF[/th][th]Off Avg[/th][th]Def Avg[/th][th]Skating[/th][th]Shot[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]François Beauchemin[/td][td]Anaheim Ducks[/td][td]165[/td][th]165[/th][th]13[/th][th]18[/th][th]10.0[/th][th]16.3[/th][th]9-8-11-9[/th][th]11-14[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Bryan Allen[/td][td]Anaheim Ducks[/td][td]160[/td][th]160[/th][th]7[/th][th]18[/th][th]8.5[/th][th]16.0[/th][th]10-12-17-9[/th][th]10-10[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Mark Fistric[/td][td]Anaheim Ducks[/td][td]145[/td][th]135[/th][th]5[/th][th]17[/th][th]7.5[/th][th]14.5[/th][th]6-6-12-9[/th][th]8-10[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Cam Fowler[/td][td]Anaheim Ducks[/td][td]140[/td][th]-9[/th][th]16[/th][th]12[/th][th]13.3[/th][th]8.0[/th][th]19-20-14-19[/th][th]10-15[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Mat Clark[/td][td]Norfolk Admirals[/td][td]130[/td][th]-14[/th][th]4[/th][th]15[/th][th]7.5[/th][th]11.0[/th][th]8-7-8-8[/th][th]4-10[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Kyle Cumiskey[/td][td]MODO Hockey[/td][td]129[/td][th]135[/th][th]15[/th][th]11[/th][th]12.3[/th][th]10.8[/th][th]16-15-14-17[/th][th]11-12[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Sheldon Souray[/td][td]Anaheim Ducks[/td][td]125[/td][th]125[/th][th]15[/th][th]14[/th][th]11.5[/th][th]11.5[/th][th]7-8-14-7[/th][th]12-20[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Ben Lovejoy[/td][td]Anaheim Ducks[/td][td]125[/td][th]125[/th][th]8[/th][th]14[/th][th]12.0[/th][th]11.8[/th][th]11-10-11-12[/th][th]11-11[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Luca Sbisa[/td][td]Anaheim Ducks[/td][td]120[/td][th]-8[/th][th]12[/th][th]14[/th][th]13.5[/th][th]9.3[/th][th]12-11-8-13[/th][th]11-14[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Hampus Lindholm[/td][td]Anaheim Ducks[/td][td]115[/td][th]-7[/th][th]12[/th][th]16[/th][th]10.5[/th][th]9.8[/th][th]9-9-10-9[/th][th]8-9[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Nolan Yonkman[/td][td]Norfolk Admirals[/td][td]110[/td][th]110[/th][th]4[/th][th]16[/th][th]6.8[/th][th]12.3[/th][th]6-6-10-6[/th][th]6-13[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Sami Vatanen[/td][td]Anaheim Ducks[/td][td]110[/td][th]-8[/th][th]12[/th][th]12[/th][th]11.8[/th][th]7.0[/th][th]14-12-9-12[/th][th]6-15[/th][/tr][/tr][/table]

Other D contracted to Anaheim (along with their CA/PA and Team Playing For)
- Jesse Blacker (94/-7) Norfolk Admirals
- Shea Theodore (90/-14) Seattle Thunderbirds
- Tim Heed (89/-13) Skellefteå AIK
- Kevin Gagné (86/-13) Norfolk Admirals
- Alex Grant (85/-7) Norfolk Admirals
- Stefan Warg (71/90) Norfolk Admirals
- Andrew O'Brien (57/-12) Utah Grizzlies

Ducks defensmen will change a lot. (looking at the list)

nino33 wrote:

ElPayaso wrote:Perhaps you could make a list of all the Ducks defensemen as the one you did of Vancouver above?

(Contracted To) Anaheim Ducks D with 100+ CA - TBL Rosters 6.0
[table][tr][th]Player[/th][th]Team[/th][th]CA[/th][th]PA[/th][th]OFF[/th][th]DEF[/th][th]Off Avg[/th][th]Def Avg[/th][th]Skating[/th][th]Shot[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]François Beauchemin[/td][td]Anaheim Ducks[/td][td]165[/td][th]165[/th][th]13[/th][th]18[/th][th]10.0[/th][th]16.3[/th][th]9-8-11-9[/th][th]11-14[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Bryan Allen[/td][td]Anaheim Ducks[/td][td]160[/td][th]160[/th][th]7[/th][th]18[/th][th]8.5[/th][th]16.0[/th][th]10-12-17-9[/th][th]10-10[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Mark Fistric[/td][td]Anaheim Ducks[/td][td]145[/td][th]135[/th][th]5[/th][th]17[/th][th]7.5[/th][th]14.5[/th][th]6-6-12-9[/th][th]8-10[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Cam Fowler[/td][td]Anaheim Ducks[/td][td]140[/td][th]-9[/th][th]16[/th][th]12[/th][th]13.3[/th][th]8.0[/th][th]19-20-14-19[/th][th]10-15[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Mat Clark[/td][td]Norfolk Admirals[/td][td]130[/td][th]-14[/th][th]4[/th][th]15[/th][th]7.5[/th][th]11.0[/th][th]8-7-8-8[/th][th]4-10[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Kyle Cumiskey[/td][td]MODO Hockey[/td][td]129[/td][th]135[/th][th]15[/th][th]11[/th][th]12.3[/th][th]10.8[/th][th]16-15-14-17[/th][th]11-12[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Sheldon Souray[/td][td]Anaheim Ducks[/td][td]125[/td][th]125[/th][th]15[/th][th]14[/th][th]11.5[/th][th]11.5[/th][th]7-8-14-7[/th][th]12-20[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Ben Lovejoy[/td][td]Anaheim Ducks[/td][td]125[/td][th]125[/th][th]8[/th][th]14[/th][th]12.0[/th][th]11.8[/th][th]11-10-11-12[/th][th]11-11[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Luca Sbisa[/td][td]Anaheim Ducks[/td][td]120[/td][th]-8[/th][th]12[/th][th]14[/th][th]13.5[/th][th]9.3[/th][th]12-11-8-13[/th][th]11-14[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Hampus Lindholm[/td][td]Anaheim Ducks[/td][td]115[/td][th]-7[/th][th]12[/th][th]16[/th][th]10.5[/th][th]9.8[/th][th]9-9-10-9[/th][th]8-9[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Nolan Yonkman[/td][td]Norfolk Admirals[/td][td]110[/td][th]110[/th][th]4[/th][th]16[/th][th]6.8[/th][th]12.3[/th][th]6-6-10-6[/th][th]6-13[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Sami Vatanen[/td][td]Anaheim Ducks[/td][td]110[/td][th]-8[/th][th]12[/th][th]12[/th][th]11.8[/th][th]7.0[/th][th]14-12-9-12[/th][th]6-15[/th][/tr][/tr][/table]

Other D contracted to Anaheim (along with their CA/PA and Team Playing For)
- Jesse Blacker (94/-7) Norfolk Admirals
- Shea Theodore (90/-14) Seattle Thunderbirds
- Tim Heed (89/-13) Skellefteå AIK
- Kevin Gagné (86/-13) Norfolk Admirals
- Alex Grant (85/-7) Norfolk Admirals
- Stefan Warg (71/90) Norfolk Admirals
- Andrew O'Brien (57/-12) Utah Grizzlies

Thank you very much!

- Beauchemin is the main man of the Ducks defense but I think he's a bit high, his attributes looks good, except I would improve his slapshot and his strengt to around 15-16. Maybe lower him to around 155-160, he'll never win a Norris and he's certainly not a better player than Weber, Pietro or Subban.
- Allen seems a bit overrated as some of the other defensive d-men, I rate him as I do Coburn, Volchenkov, Boychuk so 150 would probably be more accurate.
- Fistric is a decent defender and he's had more games than I thought he would, mainly cause of injuries on Allen, Souray and Sbisa. He's far from the third best defender in the Ducks roster, CA115-120 is more like it.
- Fowler looks good, could use some improvement in his passing, poke-check and wristshot.
- Mat Clark is very overrated, he has some potential of maybe becoming a 5th-6th defender in the NHL in the future but right now he's struggling in the AHL. CA ~100
- Souray has been injured the whole season and he's also missing the remainder of the season but his last two seasons has been really good, maybe up him to CA130-135?
- Lovejoy has been really good for us, his positioning has impressed me and could probably use a small boost. Other than that he looks good.
- Sbisa needs more mobility, and he's really improved his hitting...a lot. He's one of the best and most frequent hitters in the team.
- Hampus Lindholm is amazing, he's a really good skater, his anticipation is even better but seeing his attributes It's his technical abilities that needs some improvement. Passing, deking, pokecheck, stickhandling should be raised. CA~130 and AT LEAST PA-8. I would prefer PA-9 actually.
- Vatanen has improved a lot this season, he's been with the Ducks pretty much the whole season so far. His natural strengths such as his skating ability and his anticipation needs improvement and he's also improved his defensive ability a lot (checking, pokecheck and positioning). His passing and his wristshot deserves more than 6/7, more like 13-14.

My list:
Beauchemin CA 155
Allen CA 150
Fowler CA 140
Souray CA 130
Lindholm CA 130
Vatanen CA 125
Lovejoy CA 125
Sbisa CA 120
Fistric CA 115
Yonkman CA 110
Clark CA 100

The other ones I don't really know a lot about other than Alex Grant has appeared in two games for the Ducks and is the one closest to the NHL, so maybe he should be raised to CA 95-100. His puck skills needs some improvement and from what I've heard he knows how to shoot. Really shoot.

This was a tough one, please comment on this cause this is just my opinion and we could probably needs more input to this one.

I will say this about Shea Theodore...gem in the making. Kid sees the game as well as many a seasoned pro. his hockey sense is certainly better than that of a dion Phaneuf anyway. Not sure how his game will translate to the NHL as he has some filling out to do and some speed issues. But he is smooth and that should come.

I would say that for him a good comparison point to start from is a larger Tory Krug. But maybe a higher potential than Krug...certainly not a physical guy, and moves the puck. He has been a dynamic player at every level he has played at. I can see him turning into a top 4 guy. not 1-2 but 4 for sure. I could just as easily see him busting out with the wrong coaches.

Hampus--Will caution again against small sample size. Quite a few dmen come into the league and are amazing in their rookie season and get chatted up huge because of their potential value down the road. And then they show something real good and more chatter. But then...Tyler Myers, Luke Schenn, Jake Gardiner, Jonathon Blum happens.
This is not to say Hampus is like that but....I would caution against making his potential too high and outrageous compared to what it was prior to this great start to a season on a great team.
Seriously...Anaheim is so well coached and so strong...and right now they are lights out to a man. Hard to make them better than they actually are because the players are ALL playing so darn well. But,...tread lightly with the young ones and the big slow Dustin Penners.

Personally I think Hampus will achieve the potential of being a 2-3 dman in the league, and a darn good one at that...maybe close to a #1. But..will he be better than say a guy like Karlsson who noone would have given a -9 potential until after his rookie year was completed? And was that -9 correct?

To me it was, but it begs the question...is a -9 really warranted in comparison to other young dmen like Brodin, Tanev, even Karlsson. Hedman would have got the same treatment back in the day, and alot of others--Schenn, Myers etc...but they were not truly that darn good and never will be. -7 or 8 is tops for 99.9 percent of the dmen out there.

your Ca list without comparing to other players is decent. But where would you have a guy like Edler in comparison to Beauchemin. Have to keep things balanced out through the whole league to be accurate in the db. Cannot just isolate and come up with CAs in a bubble.

Not saying that is what you have done here, you may have looked at others around the league and compared but it does not show in the work.

That being said, looking quickly at other players in the game and their suggested CAs this is pretty decent work. Thanks very much

I think Brodin has a higher cap then Lindholm myself, i see Brodin as a future #1 D-man. It's harder to tell with Lindholm, he might become a #1 and he might end up a #4. Wish there was more PA-ranges, a 130-180 or something like that would have been perfect for Lindholm.

Peter_Doherty wrote:I think Brodin has a higher cap then Lindholm myself, i see Brodin as a future #1 D-man. It's harder to tell with Lindholm, he might become a #1 and he might end up a #4. Wish there was more PA-ranges, a 130-180 or something like that would have been perfect for Lindholm.

Yes, I've always wanted to be able to edit the PA-ranges ingame.

jhcjobpb wrote:Yes, I've always wanted to be able to edit the PA-ranges ingame.

I was actually thinking of enabling that for the Updater. I'll try to remember to do it for the next version.

archibalduk wrote:

jhcjobpb wrote:Yes, I've always wanted to be able to edit the PA-ranges ingame.

I was actually thinking of enabling that for the Updater. I'll try to remember to do it for the next version.

Are we talking about the same thing? I want for example -14 to be 130-180 (or something like that) instead of whatever it is now.

Peter_Doherty wrote:

archibalduk wrote:

jhcjobpb wrote:Yes, I've always wanted to be able to edit the PA-ranges ingame.

I was actually thinking of enabling that for the Updater. I'll try to remember to do it for the next version.

Are we talking about the same thing? I want for example -14 to be 130-180 (or something like that) instead of whatever it is now.

What I meant is the ability to edit PAs in a saved game. I can't change the ranges because that's hardcoded. I mean that if you want to change a player's PA in a saved game then you'll be able to do so.

batdad wrote:your Ca list without comparing to other players is decent. But where would you have a guy like Edler in comparison to Beauchemin. Have to keep things balanced out through the whole league to be accurate in the db. Cannot just isolate and come up with CAs in a bubble.

Not saying that is what you have done here, you may have looked at others around the league and compared but it does not show in the work.

That being said, looking quickly at other players in the game and their suggested CAs this is pretty decent work. Thanks very much

I've tried to look around at other players to compare but it's pretty hard, especially since I think there will be lots of changes. I.e I don't see Beauchemin being as good as Weber who has a CA of 155 in this db. I'd probably compare him more to players like Brewer or John Carlson.

I've been reworking all of the NHL CA and PA ratings for personal use, which I suppose I could release when I'm done. I've been using the Excel sheet when working on it, so it would be no extra effort on my part. So far I've completed the defense and most of the forwards, but I haven't touched the goalies. The defense is the hardest position to rate though. That's why I did them first. The way I did it, I ranked the teams according to how many goals they've let in this season. Then I tried to make the CA's of the main 6-7 defenders be reflected by that. So basically, the LA and STL defense owns, while the CGY and EDM defense sucks. This may not be a perfect system, but I think it's much better than trying to compare players blindly across different teams. I have noticed that atleast in terms of defense, some teams were a bit overrated, mainly the Rangers and Edmonton.

Distributing the CA points was the hard part, but I focused mainly on ice time/game averages. If you assume that the coach knows what he's doing, this gives a quite accurate estimation of their skill as they relate to teammates. I also took point production and +/- into consideration, and to a lesser extent, hits, blocked shots and giveaways. Also, teams with a more offensive bias on defense got minor boosts, to represent their offensive contributions. I also took consideration to the prior ratings.

Here's an example showing the differences between a team of the lowest and the highest tier. I'm happy with the distributions in these teams, and I think the avg point differences looks pretty accurate, but I'm gonna have to do some testing when I've completed the re-ratings. Some teams, like Calgary have really terrible forwards, so their defense might not be as bad as it seems.

Calgary
Giordano 145
Wideman 130
Russell 125
Brodie 120
Smid 115
Butler 100

LA
Doughty 175
Voynov 150
Mitchell 150
Muzzin 135
Regehr 135
Greene 130
Martinez 120

And here's how I ranked Anaheim, which was mentioned above.
Beauchemin 155
Fowler 155
Lovejoy 135
Lindholm 130
Allen 130
Souray 125
Vatanen 120
Sbisa 105
Fistric 105
Clark 105
Yonkman 100

I have nerfed the top tier players a bit, because I wanted to create more room for superstars to shine, but the averages are about the same.
Here's my 150+ CA defensemen.
180 Suter
175 Pietrangelo, Chara, Doughty, Weber
170 Keith
165 Bouwmeester, Ekman-Larsson, Kronwall, Subban, Vlasic, Karlsson, Hamhuis
160 Campbell, Erik Johnson, John Carlson, Seabrook, Letang, Yandle, Markov, Hedman
155 Beauchemin, Fowler, Paul Martin, Phaneuf, Edler, McDonagh, Girardi, Andy Greene, Ehrhoff, Boyle
150 Carle, Boychuk, Gorges, Niskanen, Shattenkirk, Jackman, Zidlicky, Byfuglien, Sekera, Timonen, Seidenberg, Andrew Macdonald, Voynov, Mitchell, Hejda, Faulk, Hjalmarsson

Thanks for your list.

Ducks sent Vatanen back to AHL as Sbisa came back from the injury. Means that Sbisa should/could have a better CA than Vatanen.

jhcjobpb wrote:Thanks for your list.

Ducks sent Vatanen back to AHL as Sbisa came back from the injury. Means that Sbisa should/could have a better CA than Vatanen.

Or they just Vatanen to play big minutes instead of playing the third pairing

Manimal wrote:

jhcjobpb wrote:Thanks for your list.

Ducks sent Vatanen back to AHL as Sbisa came back from the injury. Means that Sbisa should/could have a better CA than Vatanen.

Or they just Vatanen to play big minutes instead of playing the third pairing

Exactly, and also Vatanen is not waiver eligible whereas Sbisa is. I think they would rather not lose a player. I think it's also worth noting that CA isn't the end all be all of how a player is playing. Some of the younger players in this game have all of their mental and physical attribute set in the 5-9 range and will never be successful NHLers in game because of that.

Alexchi-How are we comparing players BLINDLY across teams? Not sure that is the case at all. Guys here watch hockey for various teams and read scout reports from various sites and understand the game a bit? So not sure how that is happening.

We all have opinions on players and how they fit in and that is valuable. Sure coaching and a team performance has effects on what a player can do. And that is reflected. Witness how we talk about guys like Macarthur and how they can be overrated in the game so easily because they are scoring in Ottawa playing on the 2nd line? We talk about how they would do on teams where they were NOT the option for the 2nd line because really they are only 3rd liners playing on weaker teams, so getting the chance to play more minutes than they maybe should be. (Past examples--Radim Vrbata, Martin Erat). They are not as good as a 2nd line winger on a good team etc.

So...not only do we have knowledge of players across the league here (a ton of people who have tons of knowledge and we debate back and forth about it all the time) but we also are beginning to see and understand that just because a player is on a team's top line and is scoring 25-30 goals does not mean he is necessarily as good as another team top line guy in the same position.

However, I have to say that your CAs -as I briefly look at them - for dmen are fairly accurate with the exception of Beauchemin being equal to Fowler. There are people out there right now talking about Fowler in the top 5 (Pierre Lebrun) for the Norris Trophy this year...along with Weber and Keith.

And the other ?mark is Suter on top of Weber and Keith...semantics and not a big deal, but Weber and Keith are the two best dmen in the world and Suter is top 5-10. Yeah my opinion but it definitely jives with what the players in the league are saying...Lebrun again (on the radio) stated that when players are asked who the top dmen in the world are right now....the mentions are like this...

55% Weber
30% Keith
20 % Chara

Others for aprox 5 percent

So the top 3 d according to NHL players....Weber, Keith, Chara.

Then you have others such as Suter....in the next wave.

Again though...like how you have CAs. GIo is low. Gio is considered an option for injury replacement for Canadian Olympic team, and in EHM you cannot punish his ability too much for the fact that he plays on a naff team. His development there will eventually (once coaches are rerated, and with the naff teammates he has) be stunted in Calgary, but if moves to another team...will improve if in right spots.

jhcjobpb wrote:Thanks for your list.

Ducks sent Vatanen back to AHL as Sbisa came back from the injury. Means that Sbisa should/could have a better CA than Vatanen.

I looked at their stats, and yeah that seems to make some sense. They should probably be even atleast.

umwoz wrote:

Manimal wrote:

jhcjobpb wrote:Thanks for your list.

Ducks sent Vatanen back to AHL as Sbisa came back from the injury. Means that Sbisa should/could have a better CA than Vatanen.

Or they just Vatanen to play big minutes instead of playing the third pairing

Exactly, and also Vatanen is not waiver eligible whereas Sbisa is. I think they would rather not lose a player. I think it's also worth noting that CA isn't the end all be all of how a player is playing. Some of the younger players in this game have all of their mental and physical attribute set in the 5-9 range and will never be successful NHLers in game because of that.

Which attributes are the ones that you cannot train? I have adjusted the attributes too, so that they're close to other players with the same CA, but the way I understood it, a 150 CA player with all 8's would get adjusted automatically when you start the game, right?

batdad:

I don't think Chara is as good as he used to be, and I have to admit that Keith was really tough to rate. I'm happy with my Chara rating, but Keith is a tough one that I'll need to look more closely into.

If you look at Suter's Nashville days, he was ahead of Weber in assists, and they were about equal in points and +/-, and played the same minutes. Weber has more of a physical play, including his shot, but on the other hand, Suter seems to be able to make up for it with his talent in reading the game. Suter should be up there in the top 5 for sure, so I can't be that much off by putting him as nr 1. The old rankings have Suter at 180, and both Weber and Keith at a puny 155 CA, so atleast my ratings are moving in the right direction. I might end up buffing Weber up to 180, where he's equal to Suter.

I have definately been thinking too that Giordano was a bit low, but looking at my ratings, I think I've made it pretty clear that I think he's in a league of his own in Calgary. Like I said earlier, I suspect that I might have underrated Calgary a bit, and I will make adjustments if that's the case. Also, I gave him a better score than before, from 135 to 145, and I also made him into the nr 1 defenseman on the team. On the 6.1 database, Smid, Butler and Wideman were all ranked higher than him.

Concerning Fowler, I rated him higher than his prior ranking, from 140 to 155, and I also put him higher than the Ducks fan who posted on this page did. I also bridged his gap to Beauchemin from a 25 point difference to nothing, and he also now surpasses Allen, who was previously ranked higher than him. Currently Fowler is in the top 25 with 155 CA, which isn't too shabby. I'll definately consider buffing him further when I'm done more testing.

Making the ratings more accurate for my personal use is the only reason why I'm re-ranking the players myself. I'm not saying that I would do a better job than the entire board could if you put your heads together, but I think I can definately improve upon the old ratings. I'm not aiming for perfection. The reason why I'm sharing my results is because we were being asked to contribute, and I also want to receive feedback in order to improve my own ratings. So I thank you for your feedback.

Karlsson should obviously be up there with Pietrangelo and Doughty at 175.

You can think what you want about Chara that is fine. He may be down a bit. But when the NHL players themselves say Weber-Keith-Chara....I tend to believe what they think over what others think. They kind of um..have a better idea than us fans I Would say.

Suter is darn good. but he is NOT the best defenseman in the NHL. He plays 40 minutes because he is in Minny. Was he the #1 guy in Nashville? .....No. That other guy was...so how can you say Suter is #1??? Not possible. It is not ALL ABOUT POINTS. Weber does way more in the game than Suter. Period. Sure Suter may have had the points, but I am not sure you will find a hockey scout or guy anywhere to suggest Suter was better than Weber when they played together or now that they do not. Sure..close...but better no.

And yeah...I know the ratings are wrong from before...I think we all do....and I never said your ratings were BAD...in fact .they are pretty good. Just not the way the game should be to be as COMPLETELY ACCURATE as possible. Good ratings you have in fact, not PERFECT is what I am saying. See you say not looking for perfection....um okay. Up to you.

I have not said you were FAR off...I said just off.

Guys who should have higher CA than Suter

1. Weber,
2. Keith
3. Chara (even if down a bit, still top dman in the league)
4. Karlsson (has to be because of points)
5. Subban (same as Karlsson)

And those are just 5 off top of my head. Notice something they have in common that Mr Suter does not have with one exception? And that exception was just named an alternate captain on a team with Duncan Keith who did not get one. Quite honestly---Shea Weber is the best 2 way defenseman with physical abilities in the league, and in the world. No experts would even question that if asked.

Suter--darn good and fits in under those top 5 guys I listed. ANd no it is not lke he should have a 120 CA just he should not be higher than the ones listed above.

Yeah I know Subban is controversial, but darn he is good, and people have to start realizing that just because he is flashy and excitable and a bit of a braggart....that he is still that darn good, just a jerkwad--young and immature. Still darn good.

And Karlsson...wow...Noone would trade him straight up for Suter in their right mind



Top 10 yes, maybe top 5...certainly not 1.

Re Fowler..I was not saying rate him higher. I was saying rate him higher than Beauchemin. Your list has him the same.

I know you are doing it the way you want to for your personal thing and that is great, and sharing it with us is great.

And i believe I said several times in my post that your ratings are pretty darn good....

ANd how can you not go for perfection? THat should be the goal of anyone in anything anywhere. Perfection is awesome. I wish I had it.