EHM The Blue Line

I'll just be +1 on this, I cast a vote similar to Aladyyn :
edit : after all Marchand earned his 1st place very well now
God I feel bad.

POLL 1 - BOS
1) Brad Marchand
2) David Krejci
3) David Backes

POLL 2 - CAR
1) Victor Rask
2) Lee Stempniak
3) Elias Lindholm

POLL 3 - COL
1) Nathan MacKinnon
2) Gabriel Landeskog
3) Matt Duchene

POLL 1 - BOS
1) Brad Marchand - Marchand is ELITE, probably a top-5 LW in the league right now. Elite scorer and even more elite when it comes to shot generation and shot supression.
2) David Krejci - His contract is pretty bad but he's still producing as a first liner. He doesn't drive play though and he needs somewhat sheltered starts, i think overall he's a solid 2C still.
3) David Backes - Bad contract but still a decent player, kind of similar to Krejci stat-wise but a bit worse. Overall he's just slightly worse then Krejci.

POLL 2 - CAR
1) Lee Stempniak - A very good and versatile top-9 W. Solid possession player and a solid scorer, pretty decent at everything.
2) Victor Rask - A middle-6 player 5v5 but very good on the PP, has serious issues with his shot suppression.
3) Elias Lindholm - Good possessionplayer but struggles to score points, scores at the rate of a 4th liner 5v5, still a decent middle-6 player.

This Carolina poll is by far the toughest one yet, these 3 players are very even, especially the 2 Swedes, i'd have them all very close in CA.

POLL 3 - COL
1) Gabriel Landeskog - An elite 1LW (not as good as Marchand but still elite), top-10 LW in the league for sure. He has no weaknesses in his game, scores at a good pace and has very solid possession numbers.
2) Matt Duchene - A legit 1st liner, scores at an elite pace but has some shot suppression issues.
3) Nathan MacKinnon - Very close to Duchene but he 'only' scores at a 2nd line pace 5v5, VERY strong shot generation though and overall better then Duchene defensively, but offense is more important for these kind of forwards imo.

Another pretty close one, Landeskog is more well rounded which made it pretty easy to put him #1 but Duchene and MacKinnon are very close, if MacKinnon can up his 5v5 production then he'll go past Duchene.

3) FORWARDS #1

POLL 1 - BOS
1) Brad Marchand
2) David Krejci
3) David Backes

POLL 2 - CAR
1) Lee Stempinak
2) Elias Lindholm
3) Victor Rask

POLL 3 - COL
1) Gabriel Landeskog
2) Nathan MacKinnon
3) Matt Duchene

Peter_Doherty wrote:This Carolina poll is by far the toughest one yet, these 3 players are very even, especially the 2 Swedes, i'd have them all very close in CA.

Wondered about putting Teräväinen there also. But he might be the worst of them. Hard to say how he'll adopt in Carolina.

Thanks Pete for stating your opinions on the players.
_______________________________________________

Would be fun to participate in this threads discussion but I don't wanna spoil anything for the upcoming database.

POLL 1 - BOS
1) Brad Marchand
2) David Krejci
3) David Backes

POLL 3 - COL
1) Gabriel Landeskog
2) Nathan MacKinnon
3) Matt Duchene

Skipped the CAR poll as I'm not familiar with the players enough to rank them objectively.

CJ wrote:

Peter_Doherty wrote:This Carolina poll is by far the toughest one yet, these 3 players are very even, especially the 2 Swedes, i'd have them all very close in CA.

Wondered about putting Teräväinen there also. But he might be the worst of them. Hard to say how he'll adopt in Carolina.
_______________________________________________

Would be fun to participate in this threads discussion but I don't wanna spoil anything for the upcoming database.

Actually think i would have put Teräväinen 1st in that poll, atleast before the Swedes. His possessionstats are very good, especially his shot suppression which is borderline elite. His scoring rate 5v5 is 'only' that of a 3rd liner (which is still better then Lindholm) but his strong possession stats cover for that imo.

No problems, i like to discuss things like this Especially since i can use some objective stats to back my rankings up too.

Does it really matter if you spoil though? Better to have you in the discussions honestly.

When I rate players I have to take into consideration how they'll play the next season also instead of just go for what they were last season. Of course no one can know this but one can make a guess. Simpler for old players they usually decline (if they're not like Jagr), and youngster develope (if they're not Patrik Stefan, lol)

Elias Lindholm for example, I think he'll have a breakthrough this season (if he plays with Teräväinen and Aho).

Peter_Doherty wrote:POLL 1 - BOS
1) Brad Marchand - Marchand is ELITE, probably a top-5 LW in the league right now. Elite scorer and even more elite when it comes to shot generation and shot supression.
2) David Krejci - His contract is pretty bad but he's still producing as a first liner. He doesn't drive play though and he needs somewhat sheltered starts, i think overall he's a solid 2C still.
3) David Backes - Bad contract but still a decent player, kind of similar to Krejci stat-wise but a bit worse. Overall he's just slightly worse then Krejci.

I wonder how much of Marchand is a product of Bergeron. His stats without him range from bad to atrocious, and even if they're fairly small samples in each single season, the huge drop-off is consistent.

I get that, but i don't think you should overdo that. Think you should rate the players with what you know for the most part, maybe some slight changes with considerations to how they'll develop but not too much.

I like Lindholm with Teräväinen, would love to see them on kind of a shutdown line with Staal in the middle, could be an insane possession line.

Aladyyn wrote:

Peter_Doherty wrote:POLL 1 - BOS
1) Brad Marchand - Marchand is ELITE, probably a top-5 LW in the league right now. Elite scorer and even more elite when it comes to shot generation and shot supression.
2) David Krejci - His contract is pretty bad but he's still producing as a first liner. He doesn't drive play though and he needs somewhat sheltered starts, i think overall he's a solid 2C still.
3) David Backes - Bad contract but still a decent player, kind of similar to Krejci stat-wise but a bit worse. Overall he's just slightly worse then Krejci.

I wonder how much of Marchand is a product of Bergeron. His stats without him range from bad to atrocious, and even if they're fairly small samples in each single season, the huge drop-off is consistent.

Impossible to say when they play like 95% if the shifts with eachother. Gotta go with what we got, right?

Poll 3)

1. Nathan Mackinnon
2. Gabriel Landeskog
3. Matt Duchene

Peter_Doherty wrote:I get that, but i don't think you should overdo that. Think you should rate the players with what you know for the most part, maybe some slight changes with considerations to how they'll develop but not too much.

I like Lindholm with Teräväinen, would love to see them on kind of a shutdown line with Staal in the middle, could be an insane possession line.

Don't be afraid I overdo things. I'm more of an underdo guy, haha.

If i were you i would check the advanced stats @ nhl.com or rankings by professional writers scouts, etc rather than biased people on this forum.

Fredlig wrote:If i were you i would check the advanced stats @ nhl.com or rankings by professional writers scouts, etc rather than biased people on this forum.

If he's suppose to check advanced stats then maybe use a site that's actually good at tracking it and is easy to navigate? Corsica.hockey or hockeyanalysis.com are much better sites.
I don't really see the issue of having a healthy discussion inhouse on this forum either, some opinions are biased sure, but he's not asking one guy, it's an open forum.

Edit: This is a very interesting read on ranking players based on analytics. https://hockey-graphs.com/2016/10/12/20 ... 0-players/

Fredlig wrote:If i were you i would check the advanced stats @ nhl.com or rankings by professional writers scouts, etc rather than biased people on this forum.

Who has said I listen to biased people on this forum. I started this thread to keep people involved as it's pretty quiet around here these days. I think it's a good idea. I will not rate the players just based on 10 TBL peoples opinions (sorry guys, but I still listen to you of course).
I'm sorry you think that way.

Have I ever even told anyone how much research I do for this TBL rosters, I'm pretty sure I haven't. So don't assume things like that.

Peter_Doherty wrote:

Aladyyn wrote:

Peter_Doherty wrote:POLL 1 - BOS
1) Brad Marchand - Marchand is ELITE, probably a top-5 LW in the league right now. Elite scorer and even more elite when it comes to shot generation and shot supression.
2) David Krejci - His contract is pretty bad but he's still producing as a first liner. He doesn't drive play though and he needs somewhat sheltered starts, i think overall he's a solid 2C still.
3) David Backes - Bad contract but still a decent player, kind of similar to Krejci stat-wise but a bit worse. Overall he's just slightly worse then Krejci.

I wonder how much of Marchand is a product of Bergeron. His stats without him range from bad to atrocious, and even if they're fairly small samples in each single season, the huge drop-off is consistent.

Impossible to say when they play like 95% if the shifts with eachother. Gotta go with what we got, right?

Yea that's why I can only wonder and wish there was more data

Aladyyn wrote:Yea that's why I can only wonder and wish there was more data

Honestly though, i just think Marchand is really really good. Sure, playing with Bergeron clearly won't hurt, but i think Marchand is legit. I do hate him a whole bunch though because he does alot of dirty stuff on the ice, but when he doesn't then he's just really good.

POLL 1 - BOS
1) Brad Marchand
2) David Krejci
3) David Backes

POLL 2 - CAR
1) Elias Lindholm
2) Victor Rask
3) Lee Stempniak

POLL 3 - COL
1) Gabriel Landeskog
2) Nathan MacKinnon
3) Matt Duchene

Fredlig wrote:If i were you i would check the advanced stats @ nhl.com or rankings by professional writers scouts, etc rather than biased people on this forum.

In the decades I've been following hockey it's always been thought that "professional writers" had their own biases & I've never heard of scouts publicizing rankings/ratings (and the opinions you occasionally hear from a scout were thought to be as potentially biased as the professional writers)

It's always good to look at as many sources as possible when researching anything (including the opinions of TBLers in this case)


I'm aware of the effort that CJ puts into his work and I've always thought it very well reasoned and multifaceted/thorough

Peter_Doherty wrote:

Aladyyn wrote:Yea that's why I can only wonder and wish there was more data

Honestly though, i just think Marchand is really really good. Sure, playing with Bergeron clearly won't hurt, but i think Marchand is legit. I do hate him a whole bunch though because he does alot of dirty stuff on the ice, but when he doesn't then he's just really good.

I agree he's a fantastic player. I'm not sure about top 5 LW though, I'd probably have a couple more guys above him

CJ wrote: Have I ever even told anyone how much research I do for this TBL rosters, I'm pretty sure I haven't.

You do research for the TBL rosters? I didn't know that

3) FORWARDS #1

POLL 1 - BOS
1) Brad Marchand
2) David Krejci
3) David Backes

POLL 2 - CAR
1) Victor Rask
2) Elias Lindholm
3) Lee Stempniak

POLL 3 - COL
1) Gabriel Landeskog
2) Nathan MacKinnon
3) Matt Duchene

3) FORWARDS #1

POLL 1 - BOS
1) Brad Marchand
2) David Krejci
3) David Backes

POLL 2 - CAR
1) Victor Rask
2) Elias Lindholm
3) Lee Stempniak

POLL 3 - COL
1) Gabriel Landeskog
2) Matt Duchene
3) Nathan MacKinnon

I feel, Duchene > MacKinnon right now but Mackinnon has the higher sealing.

Admin note: Offensive language removed - Archi

Aladyyn wrote:I wonder how much of Marchand is a product of Bergeron. His stats without him range from bad to atrocious, and even if they're fairly small samples in each single season, the huge drop-off is consistent.

Well Marchand just did 5 points without Bergeron so...

We need more votes guys.

POLL 1 - BOS
1) Brad Marchand
2) David Krejci
3) David Backes

POLL 2 - CAR
1) Elias Lindholm
2) Lee Stempinak
3) Victor Rask

POLL 3 - COL
1) Nathan MacKinnon
2) Gabriel Landeskog
3) Matt Duchene