EHM The Blue Line

The biggest reaction I've seen following the feature list announcement is the demand for a fictional mode. This has really taken me by surprise. I know there are a small handful or users on TBL who are interested in fictional games, but it is nothing compared to the number of users who have requested this on the official FHM Forum. I certainly don't remember any such big push for this when EHM was in active development. Perhaps it is because there are a lot of OOTP Baseball fans interested in FHM (I believe that game has a strong fictional mode)...

Anyway, I thought I'd post a poll to see how big of a thing it is for TBL users.

For me it's "slightly important". I've found that my time in OOTP is pretty evenly split between playing a real-world career, and playing something from my imagination. However, I can see myself wanting to put much more time into a fictional hockey world, whereas with baseball I'm simply too new to bother.

As for the reaction we've seen, I have to say I'm a little surprised as well. Not necessarily because of the reaction itself, but because - as I said on the FHM forum - I've been assuming the whole game would be fictional by default. For example, in OOTP, when you start a game, it gives you a fictional word which you can then set-up into your own thing. If you want to use real leagues, teams, and players, you need to load up the quick-start that already has everything set-up. This is pretty much how I pictured FHM working, especially after their special mention of the "2012-13 game start with these playable leagues: NHL, AHL, ECHL, QMJHL, WHL, OHL, KHL, DEL, Elitserien and EIHL".

But now that I think of it, that kind of sounds like they may simply be saying that the game starts in 2012-13, with those leagues. I was initially interpreting that as a quick-start with those leagues set-up.

I don't know, I'm really confused about it all now

I really don't understand what the whole quick start thing is with FHM/OOTP. This is how I've been playing the beta, but I don't really understand how this works in comparison with EHM. Is there not a setting in OOTP Baseball to start a new game using a database - or must I always use a quick start? What ramifications does this have for roster updating (i.e. is there a central DB like in EHM or do we have to edit a quick start file)? I was just wondering whether you knew having playing OOTP Baseball.

I've noticed both with OOTP and FHM that you keep your team logos in your saved game file/folder rather than storing centrally in the game's installation folder (although obviously there is a copy there which it then copies into your saved game when you create a new game). Do you know what the reasoning/system is behind this (from an OOTP Baseball perspective)?

I voted "not important" as I've never played any game that way and have never thought to want to do it. I suppose that could change one day so I would certainly be fine with the ability to do it and I can understand that a fair number of people apparently play that way. Probably better to at least code the game so it can be implemented easily in a future version if it's not in the first version but it's certainly not a game breaker for me.

Archi, I think the reason EHMers never seem to have been clamoring for it is that the series never had it and so it never really occurred to most of them. Even the freeware EHM never really had the ability (unless you count the random roster generator that Riz released that created way too many tiny and hugenormous players).

I actually DID play randomized rosters on the freeware (I even did a randomized rosters game story using Columbus on FHockey.com if you want to look it up).

Once you play with a real DB enough times... there really are no surprises left. Even with the way 2007 somewhat randomizes potentials and such, after a while the same DB is the same DB, with the same players and teams. At that point a fictional DB or even universe becomes a lot more attractive to put some new shine on the game. The other thing I've mentioned previously about fictional DB's/games... they never really get out-of-date. I doubt much of anyone is playing Lidas' DB from say 2 or 3 years ago... once a certain time passes it's not old enough to be really retro, yet not updated enough either. A fictional one is relevant always.... because it's fictional.

I think that's the attraction.

The idea of a fictional DB doesn't really appeal to me. I love the fact that there is a database of historic teams going back to the 40's. I'd really love to play with some of the teams I grew up on (80's and 90's). There's just so much potential there. I just can't see where the fictional part would be that appealing. What would they have? A database of comic book characters? Movie stars? No thanks.

I put slightly important I may start a fictional game at some point

Primis wrote:Archi, I think the reason EHMers never seem to have been clamoring for it is that the series never had it and so it never really occurred to most of them.

What took me back was quite how vociferous those requesting fictional leagues have been. This was never the case with EHM. I was wondering whether this was coming more from an OOTP Baseball fan point of view or whether users on our forum (i.e. where we are all predominantly EHM fans) felt the same.

I agree with things getting a bit flat after a while. I think if the TBL Rosters had more volunteers then we could keep a lot more of it fresh a lot more frequently (I know your comment wasn't levelled at any roster update, etc in particular - but just a more general comment on modern rosters ). I think with FHM's lack of hardcoded leagues, things will be fresher for longer (just like a good laundry conditioner haha ). I would really love it if we, as a community, could research a league such as the NCAA and somehow export / feed that back into FHM's master DB so that it could form a part of the next official patch release, etc.

I was really impressed with Sebastian's response to the request for fictional DB generation / features. He's taken it on board right away (link). Now that's an excellent example of the community being involved with the development of the game (as opposed to EA Sports, etc who say "this is how it is and it's tough if you don't like it").

Maybe our slightly crazy friend has thirty usernames over at FHM boards? Lots of talk about 200 St Louis teams in one league, with a healthy dose of a team from the smallest cities in the world? The Spuzzum Buzzards should apply to his leagues

I have really no interest in DEVELOPING a fictional database. I reserve the right however to become interested in a database that is a fictional world/universe/black hole/Adam Oates storm/insane mumbo jumbo crackpot league should it have some intrinsic value.

I doubt much of anyone is playing Lidas' DB from say 2 or 3 years ago..

Actually, I have a game from 2.3 and a game from 3.1 that I am still using. Two career games. I bet there are alot of people out there who are still playing those games from the past db. Because once you get past the first couple of seasons....its always fun, and totally fictional anyway.

Oh, and I just noticed I have a game from the original db on my saved games list...it is that game where Gilbert Brule became a superstar (started as a Blue Jackets challenge)....


Oh wait....looked again its actually from the first TBL db, and its the Blackhawks challenge

batdad wrote:Oh wait....looked again its actually from the first TBL db, and its the Blackhawks challenge

Wow, that was back in July 2007.

Yeah I have not touched it in a year...last January was last time. It is in 2019...so a game I was moving slowly with. The one from Lidas 3 I am in 2022....I play so slow sometimes.

batdad wrote:

I doubt much of anyone is playing Lidas' DB from say 2 or 3 years ago..

Actually, I have a game from 2.3 and a game from 3.1 that I am still using. Two career games. I bet there are alot of people out there who are still playing those games from the past db. Because once you get past the first couple of seasons....its always fun, and totally fictional anyway.

I actually meant more that people aren't starting games using those older DB's. Everyone has old savegames they keep coming back to...

I myself have absolutely no interest in creating or playing a fictional database.

I like what I’ve heard about FHM’s historical mode, but the “NHL only approach” is very limiting and means only a small fraction of the hockey world will be represented… for me I can see (if it were possible) using “fictional database functionality” to truly create the historical hockey world, with all the IRL team/league/rule changes occurring year to year that occurred IRL (using the IRL historical players); I can also see using “fictional database functionality” to limit some of the modern expansion/rules.

I don’t get the impression that most asking for fictional league functionality on the OOTP site are really looking to create a database…more like they’re looking for FHM league/team/rule editability be accompanied by an automatic fictional player/staff creator (i.e. it seems to me it’s more about creating new team/league names and new logos…a fraction of the effort required to actually create a database – creating thousands of players/staff takes hundreds of hours!)

Primis wrote:I actually meant more that people aren't starting games using those older DB's. Everyone has old savegames they keep coming back to...

Well one guy is. I'm completely new to the game. Only been playing for about a month or so.

I'm using the [2006-07] Updated Unfaking Database v5.5. Seemed like the best one for starting in that year.

archibalduk wrote:I really don't understand what the whole quick start thing is with FHM/OOTP. This is how I've been playing the beta, but I don't really understand how this works in comparison with EHM. Is there not a setting in OOTP Baseball to start a new game using a database - or must I always use a quick start? What ramifications does this have for roster updating (i.e. is there a central DB like in EHM or do we have to edit a quick start file)? I was just wondering whether you knew having playing OOTP Baseball.

I've noticed both with OOTP and FHM that you keep your team logos in your saved game file/folder rather than storing centrally in the game's installation folder (although obviously there is a copy there which it then copies into your saved game when you create a new game). Do you know what the reasoning/system is behind this (from an OOTP Baseball perspective)?

I didn't see anyone answer your questions. I think I can help. I just started with OOTP this year. Played around with a little bit. For baseball I still prefer PC Replay for current and APBA BBW for my retro league.

The quickstart is basically for people who just want to start playing the game, now. You can still go the "long route" and set up your league/universe the way you see fit, pointing your league to whatever database you want to use. I have probably 4 or 5 subfolders of different databases within my main "stats" folder. For the baseball game the "stats" folder is where they keep their database.

With the logos and player pictures, I found that strange as well when I first started with it. My guess is if you want to zip up that particular saved game, and play it on another computer, then you have everything you need. Logos, player pictures, etc ... all contained in the same folder. Besides the other reason of "that's where the program has always been directed to look", which obviously could be changed with a couple hours of work.

Personally I'm probably going to wait and see with their Hockey game. There are some things I like with the baseball, but other things I really don't. I think their baseball game would benefit greatly if for just one year, they went with a "let's perfect what we have" approach instead of "what new feature can we add that may or may not work right away".

Hi i know the beta will be release monday but i want to know if this will be possible in the future. The game look very promising and if the program can do what i want for sure i will pay for this.

We know that someday the NHL will bring back Nordiques de Quebec and they talk to have an expansion of 2 team Markham and Seattle.... i wanna know if the program can do this add 2-3-4-5-6 even 20 more team ... maybe to customize your own league but not only for 30 team but like 50 or 60 team like put WHA team with NHL and dont know put QJMHL all those 3 together to have league with all those team.....

i want to have a league with 60 teams and i want to know if its possible. I want to do like soccer do... example.... the last in standings drop to a lower category and the top rnak in the lower category up .... i know its weird but id like to have a program that can do like soccer sim do ... up down team from category.. another example... we have NHL after we have AHL ... the last team in the nhl in rankings drop into AHL and the best teams in AHL up in the NHL..... or i can customize the rankings of league ... like NHL-AHL-KHL-QJMHL ... and so on... but i can up team to another group and down team in another group...

I understand its weird and big but i ask if it will be possible or not.

Thanx for all information. Sorry for my english i speak french.

As far as I know you will be able to play as a "commissioner" of a league, for example NHL, and as commissioner you can add and delete teams, you will also be able to move a team to another city.
You can also change the rules of the league and the best thing is that you can do this in-game while you're playing, so in 2020 you can add 10 or as many teams you want to NHL.

I think you also can add promotion and relegation to the league.

sgrondin98 wrote:Hi i know the beta will be release monday but i want to know if this will be possible in the future. The game look very promising and if the program can do what i want for sure i will pay for this.

We know that someday the NHL will bring back Nordiques de Quebec and they talk to have an expansion of 2 team Markham and Seattle.... i wanna know if the program can do this add 2-3-4-5-6 even 20 more team ... maybe to customize your own league but not only for 30 team but like 50 or 60 team like put WHA team with NHL and dont know put QJMHL all those 3 together to have league with all those team.....

i want to have a league with 60 teams and i want to know if its possible. I want to do like soccer do... example.... the last in standings drop to a lower category and the top rnak in the lower category up .... i know its weird but id like to have a program that can do like soccer sim do ... up down team from category.. another example... we have NHL after we have AHL ... the last team in the nhl in rankings drop into AHL and the best teams in AHL up in the NHL..... or i can customize the rankings of league ... like NHL-AHL-KHL-QJMHL ... and so on... but i can up team to another group and down team in another group...

I understand its weird and big but i ask if it will be possible or not.

Thanx for all information. Sorry for my english i speak french.

I'm going to caution you right now. They are in beta right now. There is a post here (by me) which was also copied from a post made by JeffR on the OOTP forums detailing what they HOPE to be available for the beta. Read it.

We are not involved with the development of FHM, Archi has been involved with testing, but as you can see from the beta post he is bound by a NDA and won't be able to tell us any details that are not already revealed to us. The OOTP forums has the developers.

Yes one of the big features that has been talked about has been customization, but what level of customization is unknown, right now (again from the post about the beta), they have turned it off because it is not stable.

Now I'm not saying that you shouldn't be asking for features to be included in this game, but there has to be some understanding that this is a first version of a game. I have not played OOTP, but I've also seen alot of people expecting OOTP for hockey, with all the features OOTP has right now. They are about to release the 14th version of that game...this is the first version of FHM. It's not going to be OOTP for hockey.

My suggestion? Ask on the OOTP forums, but don't expect a definitive yes, however you might get a definitive no. You're more than likely to get a 'we'd like to have this feature available, but it depends on time and stability.'

Hi thanx for the info ... i understand that its beta version not a fully working version of the game but like i said in the future is it on his plan to add it to the game .....

Anyway ill post a message on OOTP forum.

Thanx again.

Added to my sig line at FHM forums....


And NO: YOU CANNOT MOVE YOUR TEAM TO THE MOON AND RENAME THEM THE BLUE MOONS.....YET

Does it mean fictional players, in fictional teams? That I'm not interested in. Only "fiction" in EHM/FHM I'm interested in is the fantasy draft and bringing back old teams that's been in the NHL.

I don't care about creating "fake leagues", but will almost exclusively play with fake players in real leagues.

I would Absolutely Love the Fictional Mode. I have been playing OOTP for years with fictional leagues. With the ability to have careers it is pretty cool to build your own unique universe and see hoew it plays out.
Don't get me wrong Real players are great for Replay to see "what If", but in Fictional you need to evalute every player on there own merit, and not a Familiar name.
I would run both types of leagues

I kinda noticed that thread a few times, but never quite posted in it. I guess I can chime in.

I for one am very interested in the possibility to build fictional leagues. Nothing fancy such as an intergalactic league or 9,741 teams named the St. Louis Blues. I won't request that 990 basic facegen ethnicities are included to cover a wide range of extraterrestrial life forms, that Missouri secedes from the US, that Chewbacca is made both NHL Commish and Missouri president or that Zimbabwe is included as a world hockey superpower with Robert Mugabe coaching the almighty HC Harare Dynamo.

I sure can't talk for everyone, but what I'm interested in, is simply taking what exists and reframing it. I'm not a huge football (soccer) fan, but I really love its universe, with its big 15 levels-deep pyramidal league systems with promotion and relegation that, in theory and in due time, could allow a team made of beer-bellied losers with ambitions based in Hackney to climb up the ladder, get rid of said beer-bellied losers and build a competitive full-pro squad. I love that teams can and (very often do) develop their own players from scratch via local recruitment (well, European hockey is already quite like that). Build better facilities and you'll get better kids. I love the range of possibilities available to teams looking to build a winning team. I love the mix of this all. That's why I love Football Manager -- but that game is indeed all about football and sooner or later, that detail interferes with the fun.

So, my interest lies in the possibility of creating custom leagues that place current teams and players in an alternate context, such as the one described above (well, that's pretty much the only one that really interests me). Quite honestly, I am not tied to anything in the hockey world as it currently is. It is by far my favourite sport, but I have no real favourite team, no league closely followed -- the perspective of creating a world to my liking is thus a very interesting possibility. It's awesome that so many people devote so much of their time in recreating as good a portrait as possible of the real world. That's the basic of a good sports sim and I'll play that. But a game that ships with editing tool allowing me to push it a step further... then, I'm especially interested.