Page 1 of 2

Franchise Hockey Manager Beta v0.9.68 & 69 Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:38 am
by dave1927p
new update is live: PC Only for today, Mac is tomorrow

Link for details and download:
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/f ... ost3562229

ADMIN NOTE: I've added the following details:

PC Download Link: http://files.ootpdevelopments.com/fhm/v ... 4setup.exe
Mac Download Link: http://files.ootpdevelopments.com/fhm/v ... taller.dmg
JeffR wrote:I'm just going to go with a list of the major changes this time, rather than a list of every fix. A lot of what we've been doing has involved a big change followed by incremental work refining it, so a huge chunk of the log would be fixes to problems you never got to see (aside from the ones in the accidental 0.9.59 release - again, sorry about that.)

Underpinning most of the AI changes is a new 10-point rating system, replacing the old OOTP-style five stars. Generally, players rated between 8 and 10 should form the core of your top two lines and defensive pairs, while those rated 6 to 8 fill the remaining roster spots, and those lower than 6 are, at best, useful as short-term replacements. As with the stars, the scale is always relative to the level you're currently at (if you're unemployed, it defaults to NHL-level.) So if you're playing with a team in the ECHL and look at an NHL roster, most of the players you see will be star-caliber by your league's standards (including, potentially, ratings higher than 10.0 - there's no cap on the top end of the scale.)

Keep in mind that it's not just a straight-line conversion of ratings to an arbitrary scale - to reach the 'first-line' levels of the scale players need skills that are relevant for the top lines (i.e., offense is weighted heavily), while getting a rating near the top of the ratings group associated with the bottom half of the roster requires more defensive skills and intangibles. That way, for example, a one-dimensional offensive forward who isn't good enough for the top 6 tends to drop right off the roster instead of getting a third- or fourth-line job - the "Keith Aucoin" effect. Finally, there's a special "goon bonus" for enforcer-type players that increases their ratings to a level where the AI will treat them realistically (the game lineup AI isn't doing that yet, though - that's coming as part of the game engine work this week.)

At the start of the game, most of the ratings you see will be fairly accurate representations of player skill. But newly-generated players can have significantly inflated or deflated apparent value. That's where your scouts come in: assigning them to a geographical area (particularly if they're from that area themselves) will reduce or eliminate the effects of inaccurate information about players in that area. (The geographical areas have also been significantly simplified.) I'll be elaborating on that in a systems discussion later this week.

The cap rules now allow the accumulation of cap space as in the NHL. We've presented this in what we think is the easiest-to-understand way, by showing your cap limit as an amount that will gradually increase during the season if you stay under it. That way, you can easily see exactly how much cap hit you can take on via a trade or free agent signing (rather than having to do a bunch of math with daily payrolls and remaining cap room.)

AI teams now have a more logical approach to cap management if they find themselves over the limit, instead of dumping half their roster if they need to make space. They'll try to resolve the problem by sending players down first, but if that fails they'll try to move their lowest-valued high-salary players to another team for a draft pick or picks. There are still some teams taking radical steps to get under the cap, but at least now they're not ditching half their roster. The ultimate source of the difficulties is the new CBA rule that deters minor-league salary dumps - when the largest amount of cap space you can gain via sending someone down is $375,000, that severely limits your options and makes writing cap-management AI much more complicated. We've also got multiple NHL rosters that are currently taking advantage of the 10% off-season cap cushion, but will need to be cut down somehow when the season starts.

The AI's trading logic has been completely overhauled, and trades between AI teams will now occur at realistic rates and times (more of them at the deadline, for example) and be significantly more varied in composition than they were before. I'm still not seeing as many draft picks moved as I'd like, so I suspect something's off in the way they're valued (also via a new method, one that takes into account the strength of the draft class), we'll be investigating that further. It also tends to overvalue older players.

AI teams should also evaluate your trade offers a little better; among other things, your trading partner will now specifically say if he's refusing the trade because you're giving him more salary than he can afford, which will let you remove some players or take salary back to fix the deal.

For now, AI teams will only make offers to you for players that you've put on the trading block (and those offers should come at a fairly dependable, but not annoying, rate.)

It's now possible for teams in leagues that allow soccer-style transfers to purchase players from other such teams; right now, this is mainly enabled in the European leagues. At the moment, pending better data on how much cash actually changes hands in these transactions, typical transfer costs will be an amount around 90% of the player's annual salary. Both the player and AI can make these deals.

Some loopholes in free agency that allowed the signing of ineligible players (other teams' draftees, underage players, etc.) have been closed; you now should only be able to open the offer screen for a player if it's possible to sign him.

Players who are RFA's on the expiration of their contracts should now be properly designated at the start of the game, but there still appear to be some issues with the AI's qualification-offer logic.

The historical database is now complete through the 2008-09 season. I also spent some time today making a few changes that will model high-PIM players more accurately. On the downside, the new trade engine isn't working in historical mode yet, but that's coming.

The match engine now includes more varied text for shot and faceoff events; there'll be a lot more coming, but you can see the basic outline of how it'll work - we just need to add the text triggers to things that are already occurring in the game, but not being reflected in the text (e.g., all the giveaways, takeaways, hits, penalties, etc. that you see in the stats.)

The new researchers are getting up to speed and there's been much more editing activity in the last three weeks. That'll continue post-release, we'll be working continuously on the database and posting regular updates.

YZG continues to add to the player name-generation files, we're gradually taking advantage of the new naming-by-state ability to get more accurate regional names.

The Norwegian GET-Ligaen is now playable; thanks to Gorane, our new Norwegian researcher, for his work there. We have a couple more leagues that are very close to being ready for playable status, but those will come post-release, since there's not enough time to test them properly right now. And there are more that will follow them as the research gets completed.

Various crash bugs have been fixed, although we discovered a new source (or sources, rather) of lineup corruption today that may take a few attempts to eradicate completely. The good news is, it doesn't tend to produce repeatable crashes, so if you get one (typically in November-December) you can usually progress through it on the next attempt.

***What's Left***

With a week to go, the three areas we're going to be concentrating one are the full implementation of custom play, adjusting several things in the match engine to improve stats generation for star players and defencemen and increase the effects of toughness and leadership, and getting facegen working. Those items are already in various stages of completion, but weren't suitable for inclusion in this update in a partial state.

Facegen ran into an aesthetics problem: when you take the baseball caps off OOTP's players and replace them with the hair options we have available, the results vary from funny to hideous, leaning towards the latter. So for now facegen players will get draft-day style portraits, with the ballcap on. (Update 8/27: I wrote that last night, and with today's delays and the amount of time needed to get the necessary art assets finished, it's looking like facegen is the top candidate to slide past the release date. Since it's cosmetic, I think it makes the most sense to cut there rather than lose func

The match engine work will also include some non-stat fixes, including, I hope, the return of the shot view screen (it'll be viewable by clicking items on the highlights list.) We'll also be recording some additional stats, including things that will allow us to calculate Corsi/Fenwick - you can see the beginnings of this in the bottom section of the player season stats screen, with some dummy values (PDO is there and calculated correctly, though.)

See the description of custom mode I posted a few days ago for the outline of what we'll be doing there.

Aside from those big-ticket items, we'll be continuing the usual database work and have time blocked off before the deadline to deal with last-minute issues, particularly stability-related ones. Sebastian worked out something today that will make one category of crash bug a little easier to find, so that should help on that front.

Re: Franchise Hockey Manager Beta v0.9.68 Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:15 am
by archibalduk
The AI is much improved with this release. And it's nice to see the Euro-style transfer system up and running. A very minor thing, but it's nice to see team colours in game. It brings some welcome differentiation between viewing different team's rosters.

Re: Franchise Hockey Manager Beta v0.9.68 Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:14 pm
by Viking
I've searched on the FHM home page and on these forums, but fail to find information on some things:

Will FHM be shipped with a pre-game editor?
Is it possible to add a 31:th team to NHL?
Is there drafts in the game?

Edit: Sorry if this is the wrong thread.

Re: Franchise Hockey Manager Beta v0.9.68 Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:23 pm
by Alessandro
No
Hm, probably not on release, who knows for the future
Yes (but they won't work too well)

Re: Franchise Hockey Manager Beta v0.9.68 Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:44 pm
by nino33
Viking wrote:Will FHM be shipped with a pre-game editor?
14 years later OTTP baseball still doesn't have a pre-game editor, so I don't know whether FHM will ever have a pre-game editor, but in "Commissioner Mode" in FHM you can edit most things in-game (you can edit much more in FHM than in EHM). We still don't have full functionality of the editing aspects, but it seems FHM will allow users to create a "quickstart" like OOTP users can with the baseball game (so you'd start a new game, edit everything you wanted to and save it as a quickstart)

The OOTP manual describes a quickstart as "pre-built universes that you can jump into with no configuration required. These games come complete with rules, teams, and players, so you don't have to worry about the details of creating your own league. You can also save your own games as quickstart games and share them "

Re: Franchise Hockey Manager Beta v0.9.68 Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:13 pm
by archibalduk
Am I right in thinking there isn't actually anything but quickstart games for FHM? I don't think I've seen any other options in the game.

The Commissioner Mode quick start creation is pretty neat. But it's no pre-game editor replacement.

Re: Franchise Hockey Manager Beta v0.9.68 Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:30 pm
by nino33
archibalduk wrote:Am I right in thinking there isn't actually anything but quickstart games for FHM? I don't think I've seen any other options in the game.
Well I think technically "New Game" + "New Custom Game" + "New Historical Game" are the default regular non-quickstart options.
I think once someone chooses one of these options and makes edits and saves it then it's a "Quickstart" (which is why on the opening screen in addition to the three options above there is also the "Quickstart Game" option)

archibalduk wrote:The Commissioner Mode quick start creation is pretty neat. But it's no pre-game editor replacement.
I think it's better than the EHM PreGame Editor (it really is essentially the same thing IMO, with just a lot more editing options in FHM, and instead of saving a "database" you save a "quickstart"), but it pales in comparison to the EHM Updater - editing in excel is WAY better/easier than editing in-game

Re: Franchise Hockey Manager Beta v0.9.68 Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:39 pm
by helmespc
The idea of "pre-game" editing is kind of an EHM-specific thing.... FHM seems like it will pretty much be "always" editable, that is, once it is mature.

Re: Franchise Hockey Manager Beta v0.9.68 Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:00 pm
by nino33
helmespc wrote:FHM seems like it will pretty much be "always" editable, that is, once it is mature.
That's only in Commissioner Mode....I don't know if Commissioner Mode can be enabled if a game was started without it on (anyone try to turn Commissioner Mode on/off in FHM? anyone who plays OOTP know how it works in OOTP? can you turn Commissioner Mode on/off at will?)

Given it shows all attributes (including hidden attributes and potential) I'd think typically one wouldn't want Commissioner Mode on when they played (and you certainly wouldn't want it on all the time in an online league or during a TBL Challenge)

Re: Franchise Hockey Manager Beta v0.9.68 Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:04 pm
by zbguy
Yes, once I accidentally started a game without commish mode on, but was able to turn it on afterwards.

Re: Franchise Hockey Manager Beta v0.9.68 Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:36 pm
by Primis
I've said before that while I appreciate the editing ability, I miss the ability to move around pre-exiting teams and structures. That honestly is what I spend most of my time in EHM doing with the pre-game editor.

I like to take teams from several leagues and combine them into one. With EHM it's easy with the pre-game editor. In FHM as it stands now that'll be impossible without recreating every single team, etc, one-by-one. So no creating euro superleagues for me I guess...

I can, however, do what I used to do with FPS: Football and port over my Michigan Football League to hockey now.

Re: Franchise Hockey Manager Beta v0.9.68 Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:43 pm
by zbguy
If you look at the one of the edit league settings screens for FHM, you can see options to add teams and delete teams, and I believe there's an option to move teams to different divisions as well. But none of them do anything at the moment. I hope that's a sign that they're at least planning on giving us the ability to do that.

Re: Franchise Hockey Manager Beta v0.9.68 Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:54 pm
by dave1927p
All I can say is that there will be some disappointed people come September 3rd. At least I don't see these guys moving on to the next version until they've worked out all the kinks but I doubt there will be any substantial change to the UI in the first version.

navigating through screens is still torture. The worst is when you change the league to view standings or whatever, then need to go through a ton of steps to get back to your team.

what's the point of the "history" tab? It's cool but gets filled with injury lines and sent/recalled to minors news. I would just use it to show trades (along with who they were traded for) and contract signing, championships won maybe...that sort of thing. I end up not paying attention to it because all the useless history drains out the useful stuff.

Re: Franchise Hockey Manager Beta v0.9.68 Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:41 pm
by Alessandro
And what's worse is that it resets after the season

Re: Franchise Hockey Manager Beta v0.9.68 Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:27 pm
by dave1927p
I think i might just stick with Historical play for the time being [believe it or not]. I can look through alot of the shortcomings in that mode over modern day. Historical you only have two leagues to switch back and forth two. Plus going through the free agent screen in that mode doesn't almost crash the game each time.

Re: Franchise Hockey Manager Beta v0.9.68 & 69 Discussion Th

Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:49 pm
by archibalduk
A new version (0.9.69) is available for download. It fixes a problem with historic start dates after 1951 not working. Saved games from v0.9.68 are not compatible.

PC Download Link: http://files.ootpdevelopments.com/fhm/v ... 4setup.exe
Mac Download Link: http://files.ootpdevelopments.com/fhm/v ... taller.dmg

Re: Franchise Hockey Manager Beta v0.9.68 & 69 Discussion Th

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:57 pm
by dave1927p
unfortuately the game is still very unstable and i would consider it by many categorized as unplayable at the moment. There is very little fun to be had in the current form from the constant crashes unless you like single season games.

If i were the FHM devs, as much as they don't want to do it, I would delay the games release. I know they've "carved the date into stone" but if any reviews come out early they could be potentially crippling let alone to people purchasing the game not knowing what they're getting into at this point in time. The fans/potential customers will get over it, some quicker than others. It is no longer a double edged sword...on end is just a dagger.

Re: Franchise Hockey Manager Beta v0.9.68 & 69 Discussion Th

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:40 pm
by CJ
dave1927p wrote:If i were the FHM devs, as much as they don't want to do it, I would delay the games release. I know they've "carved the date into stone" but if any reviews come out early they could be potentially crippling let alone to people purchasing the game not knowing what they're getting into at this point in time. The fans/potential customers will get over it, some quicker than others. It is no longer a double edged sword...on end is just a dagger.
That's exactly what they should do. No one wants to buy an unfinished product that doesn't work properly. (just us "stupid/smart" beta testers, depending how it will at the end). If they go out with this, what will the reviews be? We all know the answer to that...

Re: Franchise Hockey Manager Beta v0.9.68 & 69 Discussion Th

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:40 am
by helmespc
I've already lost interest in setting up another league and play... custom games are always crashing... normal games aren't very fun... argh...

Re: Franchise Hockey Manager Beta v0.9.68 & 69 Discussion Th

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:07 am
by dave1927p
Yes, all modes are crashing. Modern, Historical, and especially custom. I'm sure they are working day and night on this game but it's a mess at this point. I would be absolutely shocked if they cleaned up most of this mess by Tuesday. Even if they had an additional month it would be difficult.

Re: Franchise Hockey Manager Beta v0.9.68 & 69 Discussion Th

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:52 am
by archibalduk
dave1927p wrote:Yes, all modes are crashing. Modern, Historical, and especially custom. I'm sure they are working day and night on this game but it's a mess at this point. I would be absolutely shocked if they cleaned up most of this mess by Tuesday. Even if they had an additional month it would be difficult.
There are quite a few users on the OOTP Forums over the past 2 or 3 weeks (i.e. since the amount of concerns/complaints has noticeably peaked) saying not to worry because it's only a beta and that the release will be much better. I wonder if they'll be the most disappointed of all. It seems as though they're expecting something major to happen between this Monday and Tuesday when the beta becomes the release. However, in reality all it means is that the version number changes and it's exactly the same game.

I'm pretty certain the release date won't be put back. I wonder if reviews will damage OOTP Baseball's reputation and whether this would have implications for FHM.

I think what the devs have achieved is very impressive. To have three game modes, customisable rules, loads of playable leagues, etc is really very impressive and a real improvement over EHM (in those respects). And I'm really grateful for all of their hard work. However, there really are some big gaps - and a lot of people are commenting about this on the forums. It is a little frustrating because when a relatively smallish number of users questioned whether fictional mode would be included, the devs immediately jumped to change their plans and include it in version 1. Perhaps had this been left until post-release or version 2, time could have been spent before now to add more elementary things like player/staff search and the ability to hire/fire staff. I really hope these things and the UI will get some attention in the post-release. I'm sure once the chaos of release has died down, more details will be posted on what will be added via the patches and we'll just have to wait and see.

I'm determined to play at least one whole season in FHM in version 1. I don't think it'll be all that much fun, but I feel I must give it a shot. I'll see how it goes, but I suspect my digital copy of FHM will be gathering digital dust until less time is spent on headline features (ala EA Sports' NHL series) and more time is spent on the more essential features.

Re: Franchise Hockey Manager Beta v0.9.68 & 69 Discussion Th

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:28 pm
by B. Stinson
I can't comment on whether they should push the release date back since I haven't played the beta since Spring...

...but I will throw it out there that Rockstar delayed Grand Theft Auto V about six months simply because it needed more time. And look where they are now - ready to release the hottest game of this generation.

So, sure, a delay would sting at first, but if the game is good when it does eventually come out, all will be forgotten. No gamer in his right mind is going to write off a good game just because it was delayed a few months before release. If anything, you'll be praised for considering the customer's enjoyment over company deadlines.

Re: Franchise Hockey Manager Beta v0.9.68 & 69 Discussion Th

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:22 pm
by dave1927p
If I recall correctly, I remember Rockstar delaying GTA IV several times as well. Since then, many developers has done the same thing. People get over it.

Well said Archi, you are right that there could be very serious repercussions. I wouldn't say it was a small group of users who had requested fictional leagues, that thread really grew. But yes, no doubt Fictional mode should of been left out the first version to give more time to development and add in essentials like past draft viewings filters or more wisely correcting bugs.

Some users are saying 'don't complain until Tuesday as it's just a beta' haha, I agree that they will be the most disappointed but those guys always get over it. As Stinson said Rockstar is a great example...people complain but they still buy the game once it's released and it's to the standards the company wants. Sales would be only lost if they went ahead and released the game unfinished. I would say only one person will stop this game from coming out now, and that's Marcus. If he doesn't do it, the game will "release"

Hate to say it, but potential is worthless on a broken product. For majority of the potential customers, potential will never sell.


Even if or when all the bugs are fixed, what do you all think of the draft summary screen? I don't know how they haven't added in league totals to that screen. They will make the user click on each player to find that out? I find that ridiculous. Let alone the game isn't adding up totals for the players profile by league but by all leagues combined. A huge oversight in my mind. You can't have a draft summary screen without league totals in there!

Re: Franchise Hockey Manager Beta v0.9.68 & 69 Discussion Th

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:32 pm
by nino33
dave1927p wrote:Hate to say it, but potential is worthless on a broken product.
Essentially EHM is the only hockey alternative, and with EHM the potential is worthless, but IMO the potential of FHM is still worth something.

The only potential to play historical seasons, or create your own fantasy league, or play with the current NHL division/conference set-up, or see players named better, or see players develop better, and many many other things (like the newgen system)...all of these rely totally on the potential of FHM

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think a hockey simulation game is a niche market, and given there's no alternative...I'm not so sure "the market" would flock to FHM if it was less buggy and more playable + those that actually seek/want a hockey simulation will likely be thrilled once the developers get things fixed (IMO those that won't like FHM in six months time likely wouldn't have liked it a release even it had been bug/issue free)


Also, to be honest, it seems to me "patch it after release" is the OOTP style.
The current (14th version) baseball game is awaiting it's 5th patch since it was released 5 months ago.

The OOTP/FHM style is certainly different, but maybe the small size of the company (resulting in it being hard to meet expectations given the lack of manpower) also means there's less overhead and less money that need to be recouped to make it worthwhile to continue on (only a handful of employees, not all working full-time on FHM, and no licencing fees!).....I suspect maybe the developers would like it to be different, but as adults they accept that this is the best it can be right now at this stage and (thankfully!) they continue to work hard on the game amidst all the hyperbole


Whatever the negativity now, if in a few months FHM's running better, with bugs squashed and issues fixed, a lot of negativity will be forgotten I bet!.....actually, based on what I've seen on the OOTP/FHM Forums, I'm pretty sure there'll still be lots of complaining/attacking posts as well as many fantasy thinking posts! HaHa

Re: Franchise Hockey Manager Beta v0.9.68 & 69 Discussion Th

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:06 pm
by dave1927p
potential for those of us still clinging on to EHM is huge. I do agree, I guess I meant more for new potential customers or current ootp users. They don't care about potential. Potential is what is keeping me going.