EHM The Blue Line

Below are the top 71 NHL Left Wingers by CA, along with a bit of extra rating information.

Please feel free to offer your thoughts/opinions! That's why I prepared/posted the data!
If you weren’t aware, there’s also a Goaltenders thread http://www.ehmtheblueline.com/forums/vi ... 45&t=11799 and a defensemen thread http://www.ehmtheblueline.com/forums/vi ... 36#p163836


CA = Current Ability
PA = Potential Ability
OFF = Offensive Role
DEF = Defensive Role
Off Avg = the average rating of 4 significant offensive/scoring Attributes (Decisions, Vision/Creativity, Movement/Off the Puck and Passing)
Def Avg = the average rating of 4 significant defensive Attributes (Hitting, Checking, Pokecheck and Positioning)
The Skating column shows the player’s actual rating for each of the four skating Attributes (Acceleration- Agility- Balance- Pace/Speed)
Shot = actual Wristshot-Slapshot rating

The data below doesn't look at Mental Attributes (like Important Matches or Determination). Other important Attributes like Anticipation, Bravery, Consistency, Work Rate, Stamina, Natural Fitness and Strength are not included in the Offensive/Defensive Averages…I selected the Attributes I did (for the Offensive/Defensive Averages) based on my understanding of game mechanics, and the fact that to many Attributes makes it more difficult to actually determine what to edit.

There are 51 different Attributes and obviously not everything can be included in a chart intended to be an overview


Top 71 NHL Left Wingers by CA - TBL Rosters 6.0
[table][tr][th]Player[/th][th]Team[/th][th]CA[/th][th]PA[/th][th]OFF[/th][th]DEF[/th][th]Off Avg[/th][th]Def Avg[/th][th]Skating[/th][th]Shot[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Henrik Zetterberg[/td][td]Detroit Red Wings[/td][td]185[/td][th]185[/th][th]18[/th][th]18[/th][th]16.8[/th][th]15.0[/th][th]15-16-18-15[/th][th]18-15[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Daniel Sedin[/td][td]Vancouver Canucks[/td][td]180[/td][th]180[/th][th]18[/th][th]15[/th][th]16.3[/th][th]13.0[/th][th]13-14-15-11[/th][th]17-16[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Andrew Ladd[/td][td]Winnipeg Jets[/td][td]175[/td][th]160[/th][th]18[/th][th]16[/th][th]15.0[/th][th]14.3[/th][th]12-12-18-13[/th][th]17-12[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Patrick Sharp[/td][td]Chicago Blackhawks[/td][td]175[/td][th]175[/th][th]18[/th][th]18[/th][th]15.3[/th][th]16.0[/th][th]15-12-16-13[/th][th]13-16[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Chris Kunitz[/td][td]Pittsburgh Penguins[/td][td]170[/td][th]170[/th][th]18[/th][th]16[/th][th]14.8[/th][th]14.0[/th][th]13-18-17-11[/th][th]15-13[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Zach Parise[/td][td]Minnesota Wild[/td][td]165[/td][th]175[/th][th]18[/th][th]18[/th][th]16.0[/th][th]13.8[/th][th]16-14-11-17[/th][th]19-16[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Patrick Marleau[/td][td]San Jose Sharks[/td][td]165[/td][th]165[/th][th]18[/th][th]16[/th][th]14.0[/th][th]13.0[/th][th]15-16-13-13[/th][th]17-13[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Max Pacioretty[/td][td]Montreal Canadiens[/td][td]165[/td][th]155[/th][th]18[/th][th]17[/th][th]14.5[/th][th]13.0[/th][th]16-11-8-16[/th][th]19-14[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Thomas Vanek[/td][td]New York Islanders[/td][td]160[/td][th]170[/th][th]18[/th][th]13[/th][th]17.0[/th][th]10.5[/th][th]8-8-15-9[/th][th]15-15[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Dany Heatley[/td][td]Minnesota Wild[/td][td]160[/td][th]160[/th][th]18[/th][th]11[/th][th]15.0[/th][th]10.3[/th][th]7-10-18-6[/th][th]12-17[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Loui Eriksson[/td][td]Boston Bruins[/td][td]160[/td][th]170[/th][th]18[/th][th]17[/th][th]16.0[/th][th]14.5[/th][th]14-16-13-17[/th][th]16-15[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Taylor Hall[/td][td]Edmonton Oilers[/td][td]160[/td][th]-9[/th][th]18[/th][th]9[/th][th]16.3[/th][th]11.0[/th][th]19-18-13-20[/th][th]19-15[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Alexander Steen[/td][td]St. Louis Blues[/td][td]160[/td][th]165[/th][th]17[/th][th]15[/th][th]15.0[/th][th]14.0[/th][th]13-14-13-15[/th][th]16-15[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Jamie Benn[/td][td]Dallas Stars[/td][td]160[/td][th]160[/th][th]18[/th][th]12[/th][th]14.8[/th][th]10.3[/th][th]7-8-9-8[/th][th]17-13[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Dustin Brown[/td][td]Los Angeles Kings[/td][td]160[/td][th]160[/th][th]18[/th][th]17[/th][th]12.5[/th][th]16.5[/th][th]15-14-14-13[/th][th]18-14[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Martin Erat[/td][td]Washington Capitals[/td][td]155[/td][th]155[/th][th]18[/th][th]16[/th][th]15.5[/th][th]11.3[/th][th]15-15-12-15[/th][th]12-13[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Joffrey Lupul[/td][td]Toronto Maple Leafs[/td][td]155[/td][th]155[/th][th]18[/th][th]10[/th][th]16.5[/th][th]10.8[/th][th]9-12-15-13[/th][th]10-13[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Curtis Glencross[/td][td]Calgary Flames[/td][td]155[/td][th]155[/th][th]17[/th][th]18[/th][th]15.0[/th][th]16.8[/th][th]11-14-12-11[/th][th]15-12[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Milan Lucic[/td][td]Boston Bruins[/td][td]155[/td][th]170[/th][th]17[/th][th]17[/th][th]14.3[/th][th]16.3[/th][th]8-15-19-9[/th][th]16-13[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Patrik Eliáš[/td][td]New Jersey Devils[/td][td]155[/td][th]155[/th][th]18[/th][th]16[/th][th]16.8[/th][th]11.8[/th][th]11-14-13-9[/th][th]15-14[/th][/tr][/tr][/table]

[table][tr][th]Player[/th][th]Team[/th][th]CA[/th][th]PA[/th][th]OFF[/th][th]DEF[/th][th]Off Avg[/th][th]Def Avg[/th][th]Skating[/th][th]Shot[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Gabriel Landeskog[/td][td]Colorado Avalanche[/td][td]155[/td][th]-9[/th][th]17[/th][th]16[/th][th]14.5[/th][th]14.3[/th][th]12-11-13-13[/th][th]16-15[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]James van Riemsdyk[/td][td]Toronto Maple Leafs[/td][td]155[/td][th]165[/th][th]17[/th][th]15[/th][th]14.8[/th][th]10.8[/th][th]14-9-10-14[/th][th]18-13[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Matt Moulson[/td][td]Buffalo Sabres[/td][td]155[/td][th]155[/th][th]18[/th][th]9[/th][th]15.0[/th][th]9.0[/th][th]8-10-10-10[/th][th]18-14[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Scott Hartnell[/td][td]Philadelphia Flyers[/td][td]155[/td][th]155[/th][th]17[/th][th]14[/th][th]13.5[/th][th]15.3[/th][th]11-14-17-10[/th][th]13-14[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Evander Kane[/td][td]Winnipeg Jets[/td][td]155[/td][th]-9[/th][th]18[/th][th]8[/th][th]14.5[/th][th]11.8[/th][th]15-10-12-14[/th][th]19-12[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Mike Cammalleri[/td][td]Calgary Flames[/td][td]150[/td][th]150[/th][th]18[/th][th]12[/th][th]14.3[/th][th]9.8[/th][th]13-12-13-8[/th][th]16-17[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Alex Tanguay[/td][td]Colorado Avalanche[/td][td]150[/td][th]150[/th][th]18[/th][th]14[/th][th]14.8[/th][th]10.3[/th][th]15-13-11-13[/th][th]10-13[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Ray Whitney[/td][td]Dallas Stars[/td][td]150[/td][th]150[/th][th]18[/th][th]11[/th][th]16.0[/th][th]9.5[/th][th]11-14-11-9[/th][th]11-15[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Brad Marchand[/td][td]Boston Bruins[/td][td]150[/td][th]-9[/th][th]17[/th][th]17[/th][th]14.8[/th][th]15.3[/th][th]14-15-16-14[/th][th]14-13[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Brenden Morrow[/td][td]St. Louis Blues[/td][td]150[/td][th]150[/th][th]16[/th][th]18[/th][th]13.5[/th][th]17.0[/th][th]11-12-18-10[/th][th]11-14[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]David Perron[/td][td]Edmonton Oilers[/td][td]145[/td][th]175[/th][th]17[/th][th]12[/th][th]15.0[/th][th]10.3[/th][th]16-15-13-16[/th][th]13-15[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Jeff Skinner[/td][td]Carolina Hurricanes[/td][td]145[/td][th]-9[/th][th]17[/th][th]9[/th][th]14.0[/th][th]9.0[/th][th]16-20-19-17[/th][th]19-14[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Tomáš Fleischmann[/td][td]Florida Panthers[/td][td]145[/td][th]145[/th][th]18[/th][th]8[/th][th]15.3[/th][th]8.0[/th][th]15-18-9-14[/th][th]16-13[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Jiří Tlustý[/td][td]Carolina Hurricanes[/td][td]145[/td][th]150[/th][th]16[/th][th]15[/th][th]13.5[/th][th]12.0[/th][th]14-8-10-14[/th][th]17-10[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Ryane Clowe[/td][td]New Jersey Devils[/td][td]145[/td][th]145[/th][th]17[/th][th]14[/th][th]13.5[/th][th]12.0[/th][th]9-10-13-10[/th][th]15-13[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Mikkel Bødker[/td][td]Phoenix Coyotes[/td][td]145[/td][th]-8[/th][th]17[/th][th]14[/th][th]12.8[/th][th]11.5[/th][th]20-20-10-20[/th][th]13-12[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Brandon Saad[/td][td]Chicago Blackhawks[/td][td]145[/td][th]-14[/th][th]17[/th][th]10[/th][th]11.5[/th][th]8.5[/th][th]7-7-10-8[/th][th]16-12[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]R.J. Umberger[/td][td]Columbus Blue Jackets[/td][td]140[/td][th]140[/th][th]16[/th][th]17[/th][th]13.8[/th][th]12.8[/th][th]13-11-12-13[/th][th]14-14[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Viktor Stålberg[/td][td]Nashville Predators[/td][td]140[/td][th]145[/th][th]16[/th][th]13[/th][th]14.5[/th][th]10.0[/th][th]19-11-11-19[/th][th]17-13[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Ryan Malone[/td][td]Tampa Bay Lightning[/td][td]140[/td][th]140[/th][th]17[/th][th]14[/th][th]13.3[/th][th]12.8[/th][th]9-11-13-10[/th][th]10-14[/th][/tr][/tr][/table]

[table][tr][th]Player[/th][th]Team[/th][th]CA[/th][th]PA[/th][th]OFF[/th][th]DEF[/th][th]Off Avg[/th][th]Def Avg[/th][th]Skating[/th][th]Shot[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Dainius Zubrus[/td][td]New Jersey Devils[/td][td]140[/td][th]140[/th][th]17[/th][th]15[/th][th]12.3[/th][th]13.8[/th][th]10-13-16-8[/th][th]8-12[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Tuomo Ruutu[/td][td]Carolina Hurricanes[/td][td]140[/td][th]140[/th][th]16[/th][th]16[/th][th]11.8[/th][th]14.3[/th][th]10-11-13-11[/th][th]9-14[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Cory Conacher[/td][td]Ottawa Senators[/td][td]140[/td][th]-6[/th][th]17[/th][th]9[/th][th][/th][th][/th][th]6-6-6-6[/th][th]12-0[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Lauri Korpikoski[/td][td]Phoenix Coyotes[/td][td]135[/td][th]150[/th][th]16[/th][th]18[/th][th]13.0[/th][th]15.3[/th][th]14-12-15-15[/th][th]14-11[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Ryan Smyth[/td][td]Edmonton Oilers[/td][td]135[/td][th]135[/th][th]17[/th][th]16[/th][th]14.8[/th][th]13.5[/th][th]7-12-17-8[/th][th]13-12[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Carl Hagelin[/td][td]New York Rangers[/td][td]135[/td][th]154[/th][th]16[/th][th]14[/th][th]14.3[/th][th]12.8[/th][th]16-18-10-16[/th][th]19-13[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Nikolai Kulemin[/td][td]Toronto Maple Leafs[/td][td]135[/td][th]160[/th][th]16[/th][th]16[/th][th]13.5[/th][th]12.8[/th][th]11-13-11-12[/th][th]14-12[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Jussi Jokinen[/td][td]Pittsburgh Penguins[/td][td]135[/td][th]135[/th][th]17[/th][th]13[/th][th]12.0[/th][th]11.0[/th][th]13-15-9-16[/th][th]13-11[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Nick Foligno[/td][td]Columbus Blue Jackets[/td][td]135[/td][th]145[/th][th]16[/th][th]17[/th][th]13.3[/th][th]14.5[/th][th]12-10-10-13[/th][th]12-11[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]David Booth[/td][td]Vancouver Canucks[/td][td]135[/td][th]135[/th][th]17[/th][th]9[/th][th]12.0[/th][th]11.5[/th][th]15-9-16-16[/th][th]9-14[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Jamie McGinn[/td][td]Colorado Avalanche[/td][td]135[/td][th]-8[/th][th]17[/th][th]15[/th][th]12.8[/th][th]12.3[/th][th]10-10-9-11[/th][th]17-10[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Marcus Foligno[/td][td]Buffalo Sabres[/td][td]135[/td][th]-8[/th][th]16[/th][th]13[/th][th]11.8[/th][th]12.0[/th][th]12-13-15-13[/th][th]12-14[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Jason Chimera[/td][td]Washington Capitals[/td][td]135[/td][th]135[/th][th]16[/th][th]16[/th][th]12.0[/th][th]14.3[/th][th]20-16-14-19[/th][th]16-12[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Nathan Gerbe[/td][td]Carolina Hurricanes[/td][td]130[/td][th]150[/th][th]16[/th][th]11[/th][th]12.3[/th][th]10.5[/th][th]15-13-7-13[/th][th]12-10[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Gabriel Bourque[/td][td]Nashville Predators[/td][td]130[/td][th]-13[/th][th]15[/th][th]14[/th][th]13.0[/th][th]9.5[/th][th]11-10-10-12[/th][th]12-12[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Sean Bergenheim[/td][td]Florida Panthers[/td][td]130[/td][th]130[/th][th]14[/th][th]17[/th][th]10.8[/th][th]13.8[/th][th]16-13-12-18[/th][th]12-11[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Tim Kennedy[/td][td]Phoenix Coyotes[/td][td]130[/td][th]130[/th][th]16[/th][th]11[/th][th]10.5[/th][th]10.0[/th][th]11-10-8-12[/th][th]8-9[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Benoit Pouliot[/td][td]New York Rangers[/td][td]130[/td][th]150[/th][th]16[/th][th]12[/th][th]12.5[/th][th]8.3[/th][th]12-13-14-12[/th][th]12-13[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Kyle Clifford[/td][td]Los Angeles Kings[/td][td]130[/td][th]-8[/th][th]15[/th][th]15[/th][th]10.5[/th][th]13.0[/th][th]9-8-13-9[/th][th]13-10[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Joshua Bailey[/td][td]New York Islanders[/td][td]130[/td][th]155[/th][th]15[/th][th]13[/th][th]12.5[/th][th]11.0[/th][th]9-9-8-10[/th][th]13-13[/th][/tr][/tr][/table]

[table][tr][th]Player[/th][th]Team[/th][th]CA[/th][th]PA[/th][th]OFF[/th][th]DEF[/th][th]Off Avg[/th][th]Def Avg[/th][th]Skating[/th][th]Shot[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Clarke MacArthur[/td][td]Ottawa Senators[/td][td]130[/td][th]150[/th][th]16[/th][th]14[/th][th]13.0[/th][th]12.3[/th][th]8-14-13-11[/th][th]9-14[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Bryan Bickell[/td][td]Chicago Blackhawks[/td][td]130[/td][th]155[/th][th]16[/th][th]13[/th][th]12.5[/th][th]13.0[/th][th]8-9-16-8[/th][th]15-10[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Ville Leino[/td][td]Buffalo Sabres[/td][td]130[/td][th]130[/th][th]16[/th][th]12[/th][th]12.5[/th][th]11.0[/th][th]8-11-8-8[/th][th]7-11[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Mason Raymond[/td][td]Toronto Maple Leafs[/td][td]130[/td][th]147[/th][th]16[/th][th]17[/th][th]12.5[/th][th]13.5[/th][th]18-14-8-19[/th][th]13-13[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Nick Spaling[/td][td]Nashville Predators[/td][td]130[/td][th]125[/th][th]15[/th][th]16[/th][th]10.5[/th][th]13.8[/th][th]11-12-7-11[/th][th]13-10[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Gustav Nyquist[/td][td]Detroit Red Wings[/td][td]130[/td][th]-14[/th][th]17[/th][th]9[/th][th]11.8[/th][th]8.5[/th][th]9-10-8-9[/th][th]11-9[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Justin Abdelkader[/td][td]Detroit Red Wings[/td][td]130[/td][th]140[/th][th]14[/th][th]15[/th][th]11.3[/th][th]13.5[/th][th]10-10-13-10[/th][th]16-11[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Travis Moen[/td][td]Montreal Canadiens[/td][td]130[/td][th]130[/th][th]14[/th][th]16[/th][th]11.3[/th][th]16.8[/th][th]8-8-13-7[/th][th]11-12[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Matt Cooke[/td][td]Minnesota Wild[/td][td]130[/td][th]130[/th][th]15[/th][th]17[/th][th]11.8[/th][th]17.0[/th][th]17-18-16-12[/th][th]13-12[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Daniel Winnik[/td][td]Anaheim Ducks[/td][td]130[/td][th]135[/th][th]15[/th][th]18[/th][th]10.8[/th][th]16.5[/th][th]10-10-10-11[/th][th]16-11[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Colin Greening[/td][td]Ottawa Senators[/td][td]130[/td][th]145[/th][th]16[/th][th]12[/th][th][/th][th]10.5[/th][th]6-6-9-6[/th][th]15-9[/th][/tr][/tr][/table]

ADDITIONALLY THERE ARE...
- 14 left wingers with a 125 CA
- 12 left wingers with a 120 CA
- 7 left wingers with a 115 CA
- 29 left wingers with a CA below 115

Fast thoughts, Hagelins shooting needs to be lowered alot while his skating needs to be boosted alot. He should be one of the 5 best skaters in the league i would say. Stålberg also needs lowering, especially in the shooting area. Kreider should be one of the top-71 LWs in the database i think. Overall this seems better then the goalie-situation. Some obvious things such as Ladd's CA and Benns skating though.

Nyquist is important to DET defensively. His DEF role of 9 is too low. 12 or 13 is more appropriate? When he's on a line they like him to create turnovers. He's sometimes Datsyuk-esque with his ability to strip the puck. His skating is also underrated.

Erat seems pretty overrated at 155.

+(underrated)
-(overrated)

--Ladd
--Brown: He might actually deserve a slight skating buff, but most of his physical defensive stats, and all offensive stats are overrated. 20 hits is way too high. Maybe 17. Definately decrease deking, passing and shooting by a lot.
--Erat

-Kunitz
-Pacioretty
-Glencross
-Landeskog
-Cammalleri
-Tanguay
-Morrow
-Clowe

+Benn: In my book, he's the best player on this list after Sedin and Zetterberg. He's very good at carrying the puck and creating plays, so mainly increase the stats for carrying the puck, skating, puck handling, creativity...

Long time lurker, EHM player and ratings tweaker.

Thanks nino for doing this.

As a Jets fan a few thoughts.

Ladd: Agreed on the over rating of CA. His 160 PA seems good to me and I think his CA should be set to that as well. He's 28 now and I think he's peaked. He had a great year last year but that was a bit of an aberration, I think his average prime year numbers would be around 25-30 goals 55-60 points. Is on pace for 20 goals and 57 points this year.

Overall real solid but unspectacular player, should have good leadership and team player attributes. Takes some dumb offensive zone penalties sometimes but not sure what attribute that might align with

Kane: CA and PA fine. Better offensively but worse defensively than Ladd. I'd bump his skating. Like Wheeler it's his main strength. His go to play is flying down the left wing and firing a wrister (mostly over the net). I'd bump his skating by +2/+4/+5/+0 respectively. Makes things happen for himself, very good determination, anticipation and work rate, average playmaking ability and creativity. Seems to have maturity issues (average to below average influence and team work).

Other thoughts:

Lucic, probably my favorite player but would never consider him elite (which a 170 PA would make him). I would lower his PA five points.

Heatley, might want to flip his wrist and slap shot ratings (more known for his wrister).

Benn is underrated. I think he should be near the top of this list, might consider bumping his CA 5 points and PA 10. Skating needs a good bump too.

Kuntiz seems to be a bit overrated, personally I would bump his CA and PA down to 160. He's a good player but his numbers are inflated being with Crosby.

Hartnell's last two seasons might suggest he needs a -5 to CA and PA.

Perron's PA seems too high to me. With Taylor Hall's PA at -9 it means that Perron will turn out better most of the time which doesn't seem right.

Saad and Conacher's skating attributes seem too low (especially the latter).

Never saw Vanek as a below average skater.

Kuntiz seems to be a bit overrated, personally I would bump his CA and PA down to 160. He's a good player but his numbers are inflated being with Crosby.

I was not going to comment on the specific players and still will not, but will use Kunitz as an example. Sure in real life a guy like Kunitz feeds off the stud he plays with--Ie Crosby. But in EHM...there is really little to link this together. So....with a guy like Crosby who is not a big monster (albeit the weight height equalizaton helps this a bit) notoriously underpeforms for his real life ability in EHM....and does NOT make the players around him better in EHM like he does in real life.

This means that if you downgrade a guy like Kunitz too much...he does not do nearly as well as he does in real life. Another example of this is Alex Burrows with the twins in Vancouver. He does not succeed in EHM at all, and ends up being a scrub or 4th line guy on various numbers of teams, in spite of the fact that he scores and does a ton when playing with the twins or Kesler in Vancouver. Brown in LA....all the medium sized guys.

You cannot downgrade them too much or they really have little to no success in the game compared to where they are in real life. Just a fact that the dynamics of the game do not allow for an attribute that could be known as "magic"....making the platers around you look much better than they are. You need a superboost rating in the game that does not exist, or underpeforms if it does exist....

So while Kunitz may only be a 20 goal guy outside of Pitt, fact remains for the time being he is a Pen, does play with Crosby and does light the lamp a ton. The only way to allow this to happen and make the Pens in EHM what they are is to over rate a guy like Kunitz individually. Same for Burrows, same for Brown, same for guys like Martin St Louis.

They just do not have the ability to succeed. Conversely, if you rate a guy like Backes too high he becomes a superstar with ridiculous numbers in EHM. Patrick Marleau from the original DB syndrome.

Size is over rated in the game....ability to make other players around you better....totally non existent. That has to be balanced. THere are few players out there that make the guys around them better...it is really hard to rate.///and then top it off with size being dominant...a guy like Crosby is brutal to rate accurately to perform at the high levels he does, whereas Backes, Thornton, Marleau are way too easy to overrate.

So my personal opinion is ...if a guy is over rated because of who he plays with it is a fact we have to live with. We cannot assume Pit will trade Kunitz in the game, and must leave him the way he is so the Pens peform at a high enough rate. To this point with my experiences in the game....Crosby and Kunitz do not perform at a high enough rate. Rarely does Crosby hit the top 5 in scoring for example.

Very good points, Batdad!

Once in a blue moon you say something useful, lol

ALways useful things I say...just depends whether you are wearing your tin foil Ranger hat or not whether you listen.

batdad wrote:ALways useful things I say...just depends whether you are wearing your tin foil Ranger hat or not whether you listen.

Haha,

it is time to bring back your Purple Power Ranger-kitten avatar as we all know what a closet Rangerfan you are

Cough...topic. This is supposed to be about the Commies of the NHL.

batdad wrote:Cough...topic. This is supposed to be about the Commies of the NHL.

I thought the Commies played in the KHL?
Sorry Nino, for clogging up your thread

Keep it going guys. This is way more entertaining than the status of the "left" wingdingers of the EHMNHL

I fully agree batdad, whatever ratings that ultimately allows Kunitz to produce like the real life Kunitz with Crosby is most important.

170 seemed like a little overrated to me but I understand the danger in lowering his rating too much. I was thinking that even with a small decrease the AI would still give him first line minutes on most teams and he'd still produce well.

I don't claim to fully understand the in game mechanics of some players making everyone around them better but in my experience those with ratings high enough to play first line minutes will continue to produce pretty well.

In my edited database based on 5.3d with the realism patch, Crosby is usually at the top of the league in scoring but yes Kunitz usually does not perform up to snuff.

Crosby usually gets 100-120 points in a season. I think I typically given him a modest bump though (PA to 195, anticipation and creativity at 20, determination and ambition at 19 or 20). I bumped his consistency closer to 10 as well.

In that database Kunitz has a 160 PA so you might be right that the 170 will work better for the sake of accuracy. There is some room to bump some of his mental and hidden staff attributes too.

I think instead of deliberately making Kunitz better than he is, why not find out the reason why he's underperforming instead? Look at Crosby's performance. Look at Kunitz and his ice-time, PP time, +/-. Possibly the Eastern Conference defense is overrated in general? Or maybe the forwards in general are overrated. Making one player better is just a quick fix to a bigger problem. I'm sure there are 30 wingers out there, maybe more who would score the same points that Kunitz does, if they got the chance to play with Crosby. I'm not really buying the "chemistry" argument. It might be true to some extent, but mostly it's about Crosby alone, and him elevating whoever he plays with.

Marleau is a good example of the opposite of Kunitz. As a Sharks fan, I have seen a lot of his games, and I think most ppl underrate Marleau, (and overrate in some ways too). Ppl see his obvious talent and his skills, but fail to see his lacking playmaking and offensive consistency issues. Marleau is also extremely undervalued for his defensive capabilities. He's got the most PK ice time this season among the Sharks forwards, even ahead of Pavelski, who is a beast. He leads the forwards total ice time as well, and it's always been like that. What ppl need to realize is that Marleau is not a offensive minded player. He's a two-way forward. That's the style of play that Darryl Sutter taught him. Sutter was his first NHL coach, and he coached him for 5 years. The fact that Marleau is a lot more skilled than the typical two-way forward doesn't change anything.

A un-nerfed Marleau might score more points than he does in real life, but that's most likely because he tends to be used in a offensive role in the game, and if he was played in a similarly offensive role in real life, he would probably perform accordingly. Anyone who have followed this team regularly throughout the years will agree in that Marleau would produce a lot more if he just got the chance. Why? Because we've seen it. Although Marleau and Thornton typically never plays together, apart from the PP, there have been multiple short stints where they have, almost always with great success. Remember last season where he scored 2 goals in each of the first 4 games? This was when playing full-time with Thornton. I think, given by the linemates he's had throughout the years, it's remarkable that he has been able to score roughly a 1ppg average since the 2004 lockout.

There are many reasons why Marleau doesn't play with Thornton in real life. Lack of production and chemistry is certainly not one of those reasons. I will not claim to know the full reasons why, but I do know that splitting up Thornton and Marleau is better for the team. In this game it might be different, or atleast the CPU might make other decisions, which leads into Marleau scoring more points than in real life. I don't see a problem with that though.

Taking a look at Marleau's current stats, his skating is greatly undervalued. Was this part of a nerf to decrease his point production? Marleau relies offensively a lot on breakaways. I would increase his skating by around 3 overall, maybe even more. He's one of the fastest players on the team, and the Sharks is one fast team, especially with the puck. Skills like creativity, flair and playmaking in general seems a bit overrated, and deflections.

Welcome Alex....I would quote you but it is aot of work,

1. It is the coding of the game that makes it so in order to get Kunitz to perform with Crosby the way he does in real life that forces us to upgrade him. The whole idea of a sim game is to make it close to reality. Without that the game is of no point. Want it as close to possible. Since we cannot change the coding to give Crosby the MAGIC attribute that would make players around him better, we have to do something to allow Kunitz to perform better with Sid than the game allows with making Kunitz individual attributes completely accurate to what they should be in real life.

2. Marleau--he is a very good player, no one here says he is not. The Marleau talk is because in the original db he was so over rated he scored like Ovechkin and in some cases Gretzky did in real life. Marleau has never done that and never will. He is still a star in EHM but now at more realistic levels...still a top performer in every game I have ever played of EHM...and will continue to be. But he is not....a 150 point scorer. Dude was a monster in the original DB. No one is saying he does not produce....we are saying he does not produce at the level the coding of EHM and the original structure of the DB allowed him to perform.

We have to work around the short comings of the coding to make the game accurate. Otherwise as a hockey sim game..there would be no point to the game at all. It is not an arcade game, nor is it EA Sports. It is a simulation game...in which you want players to perform as close to real life as you can get them to.

Marleau at one point was the top LW/C in the game....by far and away. Now...although maybe not perfect...in the blue line databases he is much more realistic.

Same for Kunitz....

Crosby on the other hand is difficult to get to the right point...because size (height and weight) in EHM coding have so much of a greater effect on the players.

I hope this did not fall on deaf ears. If so...so be it.

If there was a way to change the coding of the game so that

1. Size was a smaller factor in performance--great.
2. That there was a magic attribute so a guy like Kunitz could peform with Crosby, or a guy like Trent Klatt could perform with the twins....great


but there is not..so we have to work around it to make the game accurate...or at least as close to reality as we can.

If Kunitz was downgraded to much...it would be too big an effect on the Penguins performance...and the game would not be as close to reality as it can be given its

a. coding
b. AI levels.

Again, hope you see this ... but if not...life goes on

So, you're saying that Crosby won't perform if Kunitz is too weak? Or are you saying that Kunitz doesn't seem to benefit from playing with Crosby?
If it's the former, maybe Crosby is underrated. I know, it's hard to make him any better than he already is, but making his competition worse would work too. Isn't there already a problem with too many goals being scored? Maybe all the offensive players should get nerfed, to increase the gap to Crosby? In many attributes he's pretty much in a league of his own imo.

Blaming it on Kunitz not benefitting from playing with Crosby makes very little sense, unless Crosby have a habit of making unassisted goals. Even if there's a difference between real hockey and a simulation, scoring goals is a team effort, and if Crosby scores a lot of points, so will his linemates.

I agree with the realism argument, that ideally Kunitz should perform as well as he does in real life, but only on the condition that he gets as much ice-time with Crosby as in real life. My point is to not stare yourself blindly on a single statistic. Look at the full picture. This is why I mentioned Marleau. He will have a more offensive role in the game, and thus he should be scoring more points than in real life. I think this is fair.

He's saying that there is no attribute in the game for one of Crosbys biggest strengths, which is making his surroundings overperform. Hence why his IRL linemates needs to be overrated in the game to make the game realistic.

Peter_Doherty wrote:He's saying that there is no attribute in the game for one of Crosbys biggest strengths, which is making his surroundings overperform.

Gag me, but what a bunch of bullcrap that entire concept is.

He simply has chemistry with Kunitz. He does not possess some magical ability to raise everyone's game around him. The Pens have gone through a couple periods of having real trouble trying to find someone to play alongside Crosby. If this magical attribute were true, they would not have gone through player after player trying to find the right match, and when Kunitz gets hurt they wouldn't struggle so to plug in a replacement. They also wouldn't have had to go out and continue to bring in proven scorers from the outside, because Crosby would simply turn everyone around him into one.

He's not Lemieux, his game bears little or no resemblance even.

This kind of stuff is the reason people hate Crosby and are sick and tired of hearing about him. God help us all if McDavid ends up going to a market with any NHL pull or influence, because it will be the exact same thing again. Only reason we escaped it with Tavares was that he's in exile in Nassau County.

Would it have any effect if Crosby and Kunitz were simply listed in each other's favourite staff?

I have a question in regards to ratings that someone with more knowledge may have an answer to.

What would a 200 rating equate to? Would that be more appropriate for the top player in the league or is that a generational talent? In my experience EHM hasn't been able to simulate a true generational talent like it should. In the old database Lemieux had a 200 PA which made sense. But a Crosby or Ovechkin would have had a 190-195ish. To me that's not enough of a gap between a true generational talent and a mere franchise type player.

Generational talents sort of need ratings higher than the natural limits like FHM is trying to do with their ratings.

I agree that Crosby is not Lemieux but he is the best player in the league. I don't think there are any true generational talents in the league right now but Crosby would be the closest of the bunch. So should he be a 200 CA/PA or no?

I would say that the 200 mark is for the best player in the league and that it's inadequate for a generational player so I would peg Crosby there but I might be wrong. Right now that's not an issue because there are no generational talents around.

The reason I used Magic in quotes....is because like Gretzky, like Lemieux and like Datsyuk to some extent Crosby.s vision, ability and skill set make the players better around him. It is not a chemistry thing so much as a vision, ability, understanding and passing ability all combined. I used magic because it is something the generational players possess. The twins together have it as well, although it has waned a bit in the last year or so. They see what is going to happen and where the puck is going to be well before everyone else. Anticipation does not even cover it. They are smarter than everyone else on the ice 99.9 percent of the time.

Yeah...it is not magical in terms of Gandolf or Harry Potter...I thought that would be understood. It is well shown through quotes from hockey people, players and coaches that Crosby has the ability to make those around him better than they are...or at least make them look better than they are with their stats because of what he does.

In EHM...

1. This attribute does not exist, because coding it would be hellish and likely not possible
2. Crosby size limits him in the game.

And what you actually call this ability..magic, vision, hockey sense...etc does not matter. But Crosby has it higher than anyone else in the league and for almost all players in the NHL.....WELL HIGHER.

Datsyuk and the Twins and maybe Big Joe in SJ would be 2-5 and Tavares is making a run for it with what he did with Matt Moulson.

You can have guys with a ton of chemistry...who do really well...but they are not showing numbers necessarily better than what they are individually. Crosby makes Kunitz look better....Datsyuk makes Abdelkader look better. The Twins make Burrows look better..

Burrows has chemsitry with Kesler (He may be the only one who has ever had it) but the Twins take that even further.


And there is a player out there Primis who may be able to pull this off before McDavid. He is one of the smartest players in the Junior ranks if not the smartest, and will be drafted in the top 3 this season.

And I do not know how much you watched Gretz or heard about Gretz but the same kind of reaction to discussing his skills was out there among the fan base....fans, not hockey people.....people hated how much praise and how much talk there was about his vision and ability to make others look better.....but guess what....he did. And it is a fact of hockey that a few players have been above the rest in ability. And Crosby is whether we like it or not...one of those.

BTW--I am not a Crosby fan...I mean obviously I am Russian and love Ovenchicken.

Mr.Pickles wrote:I have a question in regards to ratings that someone with more knowledge may have an answer to.

What would a 200 rating equate to? Would that be more appropriate for the top player in the league or is that a generational talent? In my experience EHM hasn't been able to simulate a true generational talent like it should. In the old database Lemieux had a 200 PA which made sense. But a Crosby or Ovechkin would have had a 190-195ish. To me that's not enough of a gap between a true generational talent and a mere franchise type player.

Generational talents sort of need ratings higher than the natural limits like FHM is trying to do with their ratings.

I agree that Crosby is not Lemieux but he is the best player in the league. I don't think there are any true generational talents in the league right now but Crosby would be the closest of the bunch. So should he be a 200 CA/PA or no?

I'd argue he'd be about 190. EHM was designed for a 100 - 190 range for the NHL. That's taking into account a standard range of NHL players. So Crosby, being the top player, would be a 190. IMHO, other franchise players would be capped at around 185 CA. I played it safe in the update and gave him a 187 CA and 18 Def Role. However, if he's not performing well enough, I think the starting point would be to raise the CA to 190 and Off Role to 20 (I capped Off Role for all other players to 18 - I'd sooner under-rate than over-rate offensive talent). If that's not good enough, then as a last resort I'd increase his Consistency beyond 10 (we use a cap of 10 for forwards as part of the realism patch).

I would personally never consider using a 191+ CA unless we're dealing with truly generational talent like Lemieux or Gretzky.

However, I do think CA is somewhat over-rated by users (forgive the pun!). CA is not the magic rating for players. Whether a player has a 120 or a 125 CA, etc doesn't make that much of a difference. As I understand it, CA is used by EHM to police a player's Technical attributes. I.e. it ensures that the average of all the Technical attributes is appropriate and that those attributes are within the correct range. I guess CA is used to manage player development too. But ultimately it's the attributes which are decisive for how a player performs. E.g. a 200 CA player is pretty useless if his Non-Technical attributes are poor.

I personally don't see CA as anything more than a starting point for correctly rating players. It does however become more important for players who have lots of 0 rated Technical attributes because EHM will use the CA to generate appropriate ratings for those Technical attributes.

batdad wrote:And I do not know how much you watched Gretz or heard about Gretz but the same kind of reaction to discussing his skills was out there among the fan base....fans, not hockey people.....people hated how much praise and how much talk there was about his vision and ability to make others look better.....but guess what....he did. And it is a fact of hockey that a few players have been above the rest in ability. And Crosby is whether we like it or not...one of those.

I am old enough to remember Gretzky. I often wonder how effective he'd be in today's game. You go back and watch footage of him and the time and space he had then, he wouldn't have now. A guy like Datsyuk has to create that himself nowadays with mind-bending puckhandling, or you have to use brute force physically create it.

Anyways, the thing that drives me nuts about Crosby is that his vision is good but there are others better in the game. Crosby isn't a superb skater. He's got a good shot and all I guess. He has pretty-good hand-eye. He is (and this is a dirty word for those loyal to him) often quite lucky. But the main difference is HE GOES HARD TO THE NET. That to me is his bread and butter, he goes to the net and sniffs the puck and gets rebounds. And honestly it's part of why the general public isn't as fascinated with him as the NHL wants him to be. The way he scores isn't nearly as interesting.

He would train differently than he did. More available and the best still rise to the top. I totally believe that things would be fine for Gretz. He would work out, do more things that are available in practice and would still be the smartest on the ice. THe things that the players have now are not the same...you cannot compare and say he would not be as good as he was then if he played now. TOtally different era of training, specialty, and the way things are done. He would still be top notch. Not 200 points top notch as noone would be, but definitely at the top of the league.

All you say about Crosby is all everyone said about Gretz. Not the best skater, not the best puckhandler, not the strongest, not the hardest worker, not the best shot, not the best playmaker, not the best everything.......just okay hand eye. just okay this and that.....

So how do you explain that he is the top scorer in the league as long as he is healthy year after year? How do you explain that he makes scrubs like Dupuis, Kunitz etc that much higher scorers than what they are without him?

He has a level of understanding and vision of the game and what is going to happen before anyone else. He reads the play on the ice as well or better than anyone else. And he does everything techinically well...just not top level...Mason Raymond is faster, David Clarkson is stronger, Pavel Datsyuk stickhandles better, David Backes is more physical, Ryan Kesler is more defensively strong and maybe more intense.

There is more things to Crosby on the ice than just his technical abilities...and that is something that we can hardly put in the game. There are a few others like him....just not at the same level at this time. Malkin has some of it in him, but not nearly as much.

It cannot all be explained by sheer techhical ability. Just like Gretz and Lemieux could not be explained by sheer technical ability. If it wass...Gretz would have been a 3rd line scrub, and Crosby would be a third line checker.

They think the game at a higher level this type of player. And make others around them better. Yzerman did it, Fedorov did it, and the next guy in line for that ....IGOR LARIONOV. Amazing brilliance.

But that is not what I am here to write about now....


What I want to say...

We need to do what Nino, ARchi et al are looking at doing in rerating the NHL. We cannot just go in and look at our own team with our own biases with the team. Constantly I see posts that say: I know I am a fan of such and such a team, and I will do that team for the rerating....as I know them best.

Of course you do. I know the CAnucks best in the NHL just by default...I live in Vancouver. But the effort to make things right in EHM needs to take place in this way:

1. Evaluate outside the box and not use your bias towards your own team. I am guilty of this once in awhile and maybe I am re Byfuglien.....

2. Rate the players in terms of groupings of position, with the whole league..not just in a small box of your own team. Where does Steve Eminger fit in the d slots with Paul Ranger and Brooks Orpik? Look at the league and positions as a whole, and rank the way they are.

3. I would love to go in and just order the players in their positions for the whole league. Wish i would not get shot for doing so as it would be incredibly time consuming. I love that others have the time to put into this and please continue to do so.

4. AFter ranking and rating and grouping.....just base on ice time at first...start looking at potential start looking at point level and add the point level in...

5. Go back and edit players specifically within their groups of position and CA level....and add in what they are especially good at and not so good at.

6. Finally...add in the special things ....like the fact that Kunitz is better with Crosby than would be anywhere else. That Hertl is better with Thornton, that Burr is better with the twins, and increase the ratings of those guys who play with the special players.

7. Put it all together and no matter what you do....get yelled at by others for not getting so and so in the right spot.

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY to get things right...we MUST LOOK OUTSIDE OUR OWN TEAMS. I do not believe the db will ever be accurate should we rate and work solely with guys who contribute only by team. It needs to be done by position.

Not the best thread for this, but since it was one where the chatter was high and the disagreement was high...thought I would post this here.

You guys don't like Crosby's skating? I think he's a phenomenal skater. What you call luck I think is just that hockey sense that Gretzky had. He doesn't have as much of it but he's just simply seeing things a little further ahead than everyone else and is in the right place at the right time. I agree the biggest factor in his success is his determination.

batdad In terms of ranking, I'm following. But would it be a decent idea to have players grouped by generic type a well as or instead of position? Such as power forward, playmaking forward, offensive defenseman etc.?

I find it hard to compare a defensive defenseman like Brooks Orpik to an offensive defenseman like Erik Karlsson. How do you rank in terms of who is better overall? One is better at one thing, the other is better at another.

That approach might be helpful later on with the scrub players that are difficult to rank because they don't really have anything that sets them apart from anyone else. At least we could define their role in basic terms and populate the corresponding ratings compared to similar types of players (relative to how effective they are).

Just a thought.