EHM The Blue Line

Greetings!

I'm just posting to share some information/data that I think is interesting...maybe others will too, maybe it'll result in some interesting discussion and/or shared memories..

I'm an ex-goalie, and when I started playing hockey in the mid 1970s I was a fan of many NHL goalies of the era. I loved the way they looked. Over the years it seemed to me that the goaltenders I first learned about and first watched as a kid were much maligned...save percentage was the modern stat that has changed so much over the years - the modern goaltender was considered far superior because of their far superior save percentage numbers.

And the data seemed to prove what they were saying

League Average Save % [/tr]

Year	SV%
2013-14	0.914
2012-13	0.912
2011-12	0.914
2010-11	0.913
2009-10	0.911
2008-09	0.908
2007-08	0.909
2006-07	0.905
2005-06	0.901
2003-04	0.911
2002-03	0.909
2001-02	0.908
2000-01	0.903

League Average Save % [/tr]

Year	SV%
1999-00	0.904
1998-99	0.908
1997-98	0.906
1996-97	0.905
1995-96	0.898
1994-95	0.901
1993-94	0.895
1992-93	0.885

League Average Save % [/tr]

Year	SV%
1987-88	0.879
1986-87	0.880
1985-86	0.874
1984-85	0.875
1983-84	0.873
1982-83	0.875

Clearly goaltenders were getting better at their job since 1982-83 (when the NHL first began keeping track of SV%), and since the NHL expanded to the current 30 teams in 2000 no NHL season has seen a League SV% lower than 0.901 - so what I've always wondered was, what about the goalies I grew up with? The goalies I read about and watched? It seemed like they were better before I started watching hockey, and when I started watching (the 1970s) then they were in the 1980s - but there was no "proof" available! The stats weren't available...until now!

Actually the data that is available has been available since 2001, published in "The Hockey Compendium" by Klein & Reif. Someone named Edward Yuen compiled complete NHL SV% data that covered 1954-1967 as well as a few seasons in the 70s (thank you Edward Yuen!)...I thought I'd post some of the data

First (for reference) I thought I'd post the current and recent years top rated goalies in SV%
.


2013-14 SV% Leaders [/tr]

Goalie	GP	SV%
Ben Scrivens	25	0.937
Ben Bishop	44	0.933
Josh Harding	29	0.933
Tuuka Rask	43	0.928
Jonathan Bernier	44	0.927

2012-13 SV% Leaders [/tr]

Goalie	GP	SV%
Craig Anderson	24	0.941
Sergei Bobrovsky	38	0.932
Tuuka Rask	36	0.929
Cory Schneider	30	0.927
Henrik Lundqvist	43	0.926

2011-12 SV% Leaders [/tr]

Goalie	GP	SV%
Brian Elliot	38	0.940
Cory Schneider	33	0.937
Henrik Lundqvist	62	0.930
Mike Smith	67	0.930
Jonathan Quick	69	0.929

2010-11 SV% Leaders [/tr]

Goalie	GP	SV%
Tim Thomas	57	0.938
Pekka Rinne	64	0.930
Cory Schneider	25	0.929
Robero Luongo	60	0.928
Jonas Hiller	49	0.924

And now some data from the past....


1954-55 SV% [/tr]

Goalie	GP	SV%
Harry Lumley	69	0.929
Jacques Plante	52	0.926
Terry Sawchuk	68	0.926
Gump Worsley	65	0.916
League Average	-	0.915

1960-61 SV% [/tr]

Goalie	GP	SV%
Johnny Bower	58	0.923
Glen Hall	70	0.920
Charlie Hodge	30	0.916
Gump Worsley	59	0.912
League Average	-	0.908

1964-65 SV% [/tr]

Goalie	GP	SV%
Johnny Bower	34	0.924
Glen Hall	41	0.922
Denis DeJordy	30	0.914
Terry Sawchuk	36	0.914
League Average	-	0.908

1970-71 SV% [/tr]

Goalie	GP	SV%
Jacques Plante	40	0.942
Ed Giacomin	45	0.921
Gilles Villemure	34	0.920
Tony Esposito	57	0.920
Gerry Cheevers	40	0.918
Glen Hall	32	0.916
Doug Favell	44	0.915
League Average	-	0.904

1974-75 SV% [/tr]

Goalie	GP	SV%
Rogie Vachon	54	0.926
Bernie Parent	68	0.918
Dan Bouchard	40	0.914
Phil Myre	40	0.909
Ken Dryden	56	0.906
Tony Esposito	71	0.905
League Average	-	0.890

1975-76 SV% [/tr]

Goalie	GP	SV%
Ken Dryden	62	0.928
Glenn Resch	44	0.928
Dan Bouchard	47	0.911
Billy Smith	39	0.908
Tony Esposito	68	0.905
League Average	-	0.890

I found it interesting (and pleasing) to see that the top goaltenders I grew up with had some pretty good SV% numbers! Jacque Plante's 0.942 SV% in 1970-71 is the highest ever recorded!

Maybe I'll post some more at another time (it's getting late now, and I need to get some sleep before the Sweden/Finland game in less than 5 hours).
I thought it might be interesting to look at more seasons from the 50s and I wanted to check the 1980s data to see how many/if any goaltenders had a SV% above 0.900

Really interesting! Nice one nino! Some stats from the 80's & 90's to compare with!?

nino33 wrote:[/b] Jacque Plante's 0.942 SV% in 1970-71 is the highest ever recorded!

Holy hell! That's pretty sick. In the 70's that kinda record!!

What I've always wished is that there was a way to *really* weigh Save somehow based on actual quality of chance.

If a goalie gives up 2 goals, makes 25 saves, but 5 of them were say, Henrik Zetterberg weakly flipping the puck on goal from the blueline as he enters the zone (something he goes through periods of maddeningly doing for no reason)... that's 5, or 1/5 of them, that weren't real scoring chances. So do/should those count, instead of 25/27 (.926), should it be 20/22 (.909)? The shot was on goal technically but never an actual scoring threat (Cloutier and Toskala jokes aside). I actually began thinking about this sort of thing when I was citing Jimmy Howard's team all-time ranks compared to some others, because of how many blind shots he faces that past Wings goalies probably didn't.

Watching old film, there was a lot less blind shooting in the 80's and on back, most shots would have been reasonable enough chances ( correct me if I'm wrong on thinking that, but it seems there aren't so many blasts from the blueline, and fewer bad-angle shots that are almost just a guy throwing the puck to the front.... and more shots by someone roaring up the wing at a still-reasonable angle). I don't know that Save is very relevant anymore for modern goalies though, because of this. Maybe there needs to be an Adjusted Save stat or something. That might help compare modern goalies better to those in the past.

I believe there are some "advanced stats style calculations" and some actual "advanced stats" that have been made that might help. I haven't looked closely at them yet. Maybe at some point in the future when I do so I'll post in this thread anything I find that seems interesting


I think a big factor in the different style of play (i.e. less shooting from further out nowadays) is the size of goalies and especially the (ridiculously excessive IMO) size of modern goalie equipment. In addition, modern equipment is incredibly light compared to the days of leather, felt, and deer hair.

In "the old days" goaltenders tried to stop the puck with just their gloves, stick or (leg) pads because the puck hurt A LOT if you made a save taking the puck in the stomach or on the arms. Here's some pictures looking at arm/shoulder/chest protection over the last 50 years...


Glen Hall in the 1960s



Ken Dryden and Bernie Parent in the 1970s



Ron Hextall in the late 1980s (I remember when I went from felt and leather to the foam/nylon/plastic...I remember being more protected, but struggling with the bulkiness as a kid...I was a stand-up old school goaltender, I used to make skate saves! The skate save no longer exists HaHa)



Martin Brodeur recently/currently (notice the extra shoulder/arm "padding" to make the shoulders and arms bigger)



Wiki has an article called "Ice Hockey Goaltending Equipment" that notes - starting around 2000 the "box" style of pads became popular as goaltender technique evolved to a blocking style versus the reacting style of the past." I have more to say on goaltenders/goaltending, but for now I'll conclude with this "blocking style" of goaltending doesn't appeal to me, doesn't impress me, I don't think goaltenders "look cool" like I did as a kid (if I was a kid today I don't think I would have been interested in playing goal like I was back in the 1970s)

jhcjobpb wrote:Some stats from the 80's & 90's to compare with!?

nino33 wrote:I thought it might be interesting to look at more seasons from the 50s and I wanted to check the 1980s data to see how many/if any goaltenders had a SV% above 0.900

Coming soon!

This is a good pic of the chest/arm protection I remember from the 1970s (I'm pretty sure I wore the exact style that's pictured at one point HaHa Getting hit in the crook of the elbow was the worst!)

Training and equipment are the differences. Skaters are trained at a higher level, their gear is better now too (well sticks actually are questionable, they can shoot the puck harder BUT...the balance and skill of the sticks is nowhere near what kind of feel a wood stick provides...even in the show and Olympics passes are missed because of the sticks....pass it short because the stick bounces the puck, and the composite style of stick does not allow for soft touch receiving a pass..pucks bounce off all the time)

So in some cases the players gear helps the goalies as well. (Cross ice pass plays not as clean as would be with wood)

Goalie gear is huge. BUT the biggest thing is how goalies are trained now. There is so much more focus on it. Coaches hardly ever say "just stop the puck" except for the head guys. The goalie coaches are all over the form and technique and mental parts of the game now. That is a BIG step up from old days.

Fact remains...I do not think you can compare the stats of hockey from the old days to now in any way shape or form. Sorry Nino, I know you are really heavily invested in it. but the game has just changed too much in too many ways.

The same way I cannot say Gordie Howe would still be a superstar today, and Crosby still would have been in the old days...I cannot say Rogie Vachon would not be a star today, or would be....and that Rinne would have been a star in the past, or would not be.

Too many variables in too many things...to compare anything. Cross generational scoring numbers mean nothing in terms of the individual talents of the players of the different eras. All they do is tell you the differences in the way the game is played etc over the different generations.

You cannot legitimately evaluate a goalie from the 50s compared to a goalie from the 00s. Just not a fair comparison, because absolutely everything has improved over time.

Training, skating, physical condition, gear, shot power. There is literally NOTHING that is not at least 20x better now than in the 70s even. And the changes cannot really be quantified in any way because of intangibles.

I love seeing those raw numbers, but really all they tell me is that the guys we thought were the best goalies in the 70s were the best goalies in the 70s. it does not tell me if better or worse or the same.

The shots were weaker, yet you still saw tons of goals from the blueline unscreened on a rush...because the gear was worse or the training or both was worse. But the shot was worse too. (so thinking of the Lafleur goal vs Boston here)

ANd even when I say tells me who the better goalies were, it is still the case that it does not necessarily tell me that for say Vachon. What was strength of his schedule playing in the West vs expansion teams. How would he have fared having to play the Original 6 teams more often? On the other side would someone like say Ed Giacomin come out much better if he played in the west all the time instead of the east. ETc etc.

Too many variables to just use stats in any way to determine if goalies from the past fared as well as goalies now. Cannot compare eras. Just cannot.

batdad wrote:I love seeing those raw numbers, but really all they tell me is that the guys we thought were the best goalies in the 70s were the best goalies in the 70s.

Exactly! That's what I was saying when I said I was pleased

batdad wrote:Fact remains...I do not think you can compare the stats of hockey from the old days to now in any way shape or form.

I think you kinda can. I provided League Averages so you could "compare" players based not on how they stack up against each other in different eras, but rather how they stack up against their peers in the same era. Of course such a comparison is far from perfect, but it's not nothing.

IMO current/modern goaltenders are nowhere near as important as they were in the past. IMO teams regularly reach the Semis and Finals with less than HOF goaltending...because a HOF goalie would have to stand out from his peers right? Wouldn't they have to be considered substantially better than their peers? I think Hasek's might be the last one we've had...the recent/current crop of goalies reminds me a bit of the 1980s actually. Some decent/good goalies, but no one that stands out from their peers THROUGHOUT their career (seems to me top goalies now have 1-3 years at the top above their peers, rather than 5+)

batdad wrote:Sorry Nino, I know you are really heavily invested in it. but the game has just changed too much in too many ways.

Not trying to HaHa I just like data, thought it might be worth sharing

I'm really not trying to turn back time. As I said, I'm just sharing some data, but maybe what comes through is why I don't have the same interest/passion as I did (because how cool the goalies looked was a big part of it to me...the "michelin man sumo wrestler suit with mattresses on his legs" modern goalie doesn't impress me much...I think they look comical, and I think the better training/equipment has leveled out the playing field (as the old stats show...look how far ahead the top 1970s goalies were than their peers, that's the difference I noticed right away)...Of course modern hockey has changed a ton and I'm not saying it's bad or wrong, just that it interests me a lot less.


I would have never considered such thoughts growing up, but now if I was asked about making the ice bigger I'd say yes, but make the nets bigger too. Make them however much bigger they need to be to account for the difference in goaltender size and equipment size. And don't make it just wider, make it a bit longer too. And stop the excessive number of TV time outs, and (maybe most importantly) reduce the number of teams! HaHa

And...

Oops, sorry...


While of course it seems like none of this will ever happen, I remember thinking in the 1980s that we'd never again see low scoring, defensive hockey

LOL at the last bit. AWesome. I am the same way save for making the ice bigger at all. No thanks.

And yeah I knew you were not really comparing then and now, but had to say it for those who would think you were.

I think goaltending is just as important, just that the goalies who are middle of the road have so much training and gear that they are more likley to be enough to backstop a decent team to the final 4 (than they were in the past... See what I Did there?)

Plus in general those teams with middling or not elite goaltending are always amazing in the other areas of the game. But a rubbish goalie on a fantastic team still does not get there. Witness all those big $ Ranger teams, the CAnucks of the Cloutier era,

Ranford, Moog and Fuhr in particular were considered fair to middling goalies alot of their careers. All got alot of credit EVENTUALLY for what they did...but they managed to get to the Finals a few times, and none of them really fared as well with their other teams as with that Oiler team.

Goalies get hot...even the craptastic ones. Some get hot at the right time, and unlike the John Druce's and Chris Kontos type players of the world...that can make more of a difference.

I remember thinking in the 80s that SOMEONE was going to come up with a way to beat the Oilers and it was not going to be a guy who thought "Hey lets beat em 15-14." I kind of knew that their would be alot of work to stop that dynasty. They were hated around the league for their cockyness and arrgoance.

batdad wrote:Goalies get hot...even the craptastic ones. Some get hot at the right time, and unlike the John Druce's and Chris Kontos type players of the world...that can make more of a difference.

TOTALLY agree!

batdad wrote:Ranford, Moog and Fuhr in particular were considered fair to middling goalies alot of their careers. All got alot of credit EVENTUALLY for what they did...but they managed to get to the Finals a few times, and none of them really fared as well with their other teams as with that Oiler team.

I think Fuhr was special, big save/shut the door (got hot) when needed with the Oilers (but maybe I'm partial to Fuhr now because I was a "rink rat" in Victoria when he played for the Cougars...I also remember we'd have Sunday morning games from 10-12 at the Memorial Arena (with the Ivy growing up the side) and then Fuhr and the Cougars practiced at noon...Victoria and Portland (and Calgary and Regina) had some great battles back then

Victoria Memorial Arena (demolished in 2003)



I was never a Moog fan...but nobody could make a save look as good as Ranford! The Gilles Gilbert/Mike Palmateer of his generation HaHa


I remember playing street hockey with friends, and by your stance and style you could be recognizable as Parent or Dryden or Tretiak or Liut or Peeters (or Don Edwards, one of my style favourites), or Palmateer or Fuhr or Riggin or Esposito, etc...IMO nowadays the vast majority of goalie all play the same style (and those that are "a bit different" like Quick just play a more acrobatic form of the same style)


Can't play goalie charades with modern goalies! HaHa

I might not be so young after all as I remember Ranford/Fuhr/Moog. I still have hockey cards I gathered as a kid of those guys.

My fave of all time...Ron Lowe. Used to just howl about him with my buds. Love his stats from his days in Washington.

Riggin was awesome! That cage....made me think of Tretiak and Myshkin.

batdad wrote:My fave of all time...Ron Lowe. Used to just howl about him with my buds. Love his stats from his days in Washington.

Ah yes, Ron Low (8 wins in 48 games with a 5.45 GAA in 1974-75 and then 6 wins in 43 games with a 5.45 GAA in 1975-76 before his "good year" with the Capitals in 1976-77 where he 16 wins in 54 games with a 3.87 GAA)

batdad wrote:Riggin was awesome! That cage....made me think of Tretiak and Myshkin.

I really liked Riggin's playing style
.






Here some SV% data/leaders from the 1980s...

1982-83 SV% [/tr]

Goalie	GP	SV%
Rollie Melanson	44	0.909
Billy Smith	41	0.906
Pete Petters	62	0.904
Murray Bannerman	41	0.901
Andy Moog	50	0.891
Pelle Lindbergh	40	0.890
John Garrett	34	0.889
Glen Hanlon	35	0.888
Reggie Lemelin	39	0.888
League Average	-	0.875

1983-84 SV% [/tr]

Goalie	GP	SV%
Rollie Melanson	37	0.902
Billy Smith	42	0.896
Reggie Lemelin	51	0.893
Tom Barrasso	42	0.893
Glen Hanlon	50	0.890
League Average	-	0.873

1984-85 SV% [/tr]

Goalie	GP	SV%
Pelle Lindbergh	65	0.899
Andy Moog	39	0.894
Mike Liut	44	0.889
Reggie Lemelin	56	0.888
Tom Barrasso	54	0.887
Kelly Hrudey	41	0.886
Pat Riggin	57	0.886
League Average	-	0.874

1985-86 SV% [/tr]

Goalie	GP	SV%
Bob Froese	51	0.909
Kelly Hrudey	45	0.906
Clint Malarchuk	46	0.895
Rick Wamsley	42	0.894
Don Beaupre	52	0.892
Grant Fuhr	40	0.890
League Average	-	0.874

1986-87 SV% [/tr]

Goalie	GP	SV%
Ron Hextall	66	0.902
Bob Sauve	46	0.894
Glen Hanlon	36	0.893
Brian Hayward	37	0.893
Bill Ranford	41	0.891
Patrick Roy	46	0.891
League Average	-	0.880

1987-88 SV% [/tr]

Goalie	GP	SV%
Patrick Roy	45	0.900
Pete Petters	35	0.898
Kelly Hrudey	47	0.896
Tom Barrasso	54	0.896
Greg Stefan	33	0.896
Brian Hayward	39	0.896
Billy Smith	38	0.894
Glen Hanlon	47	0.891
League Average	-	0.879

1988-89 SV% [/tr]

Goalie	GP	SV%
Patrick Roy	48	0.908
Jon Casey	55	0.900
Kari Takko	32	0.899
Mike Vernon	52	0.897
Steve Weeks	35	0.892
Kirk McLean	42	0.891
Ron Hextall	64	0.891
League Average	-	0.879

1989-90 SV% [/tr]

Goalie	GP	SV%
Patrick Roy	54	0.912
Mike Liut	37	0.905
Daren Puppa	56	0.903
Mark Fitzpatrick	47	0.898
Jon Casey	61	0.896
Glenn Healy	39	0.894
Andy Moog	46	0.893
Reggie Lemelin	43	0.892
League Average	-	0.881

Oh you know those are wrong. Rollie the goalie LOL. Lindbergh, Froese, Hextall....wow. Those were the days.

I had never looked closely at save percentage in the 80s before, I just knew it was bad...with the recent realization that goaltenders from the 50s through to the 70s had save percentages above 0.900 had me more interested in taking a closer look at the 1980s goaltenders

I was kinda surprised anyone had a save percentage above 0.900 HaHa

Only 12 goaltenders over 9 years had a save percentage above 0.900...the high scoring 80s, when Gretzky and Lemieux shone so brightly, had the worst goaltenders (by save percentage) seen in the last 60 years

batdad wrote:Rollie the goalie LOL.

Rollie the Goalie (Billy Smith's backup) wasn't really considered "elite" HaHa

batdad wrote:Lindbergh, Froese, Hextall....wow. Those were the days.

Yes they were!...






When it came to playing style, I liked Liut and Hanlon...





Peeters, Ranford and Fuhr were OK too!

Soon you'll probably upload the Dominators sick stats.

Man looking at those pictures brings back lots of memories. It was so much fun to watch hockey back then!