The Future of the Manimal Rosters (PLEASE READ)

[archibalduk]

As you know, Manimal has taken a step back from roster update as he has much less free time than before. Alessandro has taken over as Head Researcher and has proposed two significant changes to the roster update:

Firstly, from v5.1 onwards, the rosters will be known as the TBL Rosters. This is in fact the original name of the rosters before they were renamed the Lidas Rosters in 2008 (Alessandro is our fourth Head Reseacher for our update project).

Secondly, and more importantly, Alessandro is considering a change to the method of updating the rosters. For the past five years we have always updated the rosters on a rolling basis. In other words, we keep the rosters up-to-date throughout the course of the season. Alessandro is considering changing to a method of a season-start update. In other words, he would like to keep the rosters as they are as of the beginning of the season.

As this is a major shift in how the rosters would be updated, we really want the community's views on this. The outcome of the poll will determine how the rosters are updated from now on. If the outcome of the poll is very close (e.g. more-or-less 50-50 +/- 1% or 2%) then Alessandro will have the final decision. If, however, the outcome is quite clearly in favour of one over the other then the poll outcome will be the final decision.

So, in summary, you have two choices:

Rolling Update Rosters
We will keep the rosters up to date all of the time. Roster updates released throughout the season will have the up-to-date rosters as they are at that time. For example, if the v5.1 rosters were released on 1 February 2013, the team rosters would reflect how the real life team rosters are as of 1 February 2013.

Start of Season Rosters
Although regular updates will be released throughout the season, the team rosters will be frozen as of the start of the season. For example, if the v5.1 rosters were released on 1 February 2013, the team rosters would reflect how the real life team rosters were as of the start of the 2012/13 season (i.e. as of 1 September 2013 or thereabouts).

I will leave the final word to our new Head Researcher, Alessandro:

Dear TBL users,

as most of you know, we just released the Manimal 5.0 rosters, in which you can play a full 2012-13 NHL season, differently from the real life, or you can try and win one of the multiple Major Junior, Minor or European leagues without the lockout effect, with 2012-13 rosters and starting the game in 2012 thanks to Archibalduk's phenomenal CSD patch. You can also try and have a look at the Realism patch and, if you feel like you want to spend some time in DB editing and want a deeper and more interesting European experience, the Super Patch is what you're searching for (note: this is still a Work In Progress).

However, since we always strive for the best, we'll (relatively) soon release a 5.1 version of the DB so to have some issues fixed (in particular we intend to improve the European and the NA minor leagues database [and hopefully also a re-rate of the NHL and a rating update for the WHL - Archi]) and a deeper DB with more (young) players. Since now we have the CSD patch, some (and I have to count myself in) see no point in having up-to-date rosters since you can start the game in 2012 (and 2013, 2014, etc., for the future), while others keep on preferring up-to-date roster, in spite of being a little bit less realistic.

So, dear TBL users, the choice is yours. Since it's YOU who will use the db, so it makes sense to let YOU decide how we should create the rosters. Please vote and let your opinion count!

Thanks for your time and attention

P.S. Should the NHL lockout end (will it?), we'll release an up-to-date version of the rosters (that is, at least for NA leagues) no matter what.

[archibalduk]

P.s. will remain open for the next ten days.

[B. Stinson]

I voted for rolling updates, because it's kind of the best of both worlds. At some point you'll release a roster set that represents the start of the season. If this is kept available for separate download, people can use it when they want 'season opener' rosters. The subsequent roster updates will then provide people with the most up-to-date rosters if that's what they want.

[Oilfield316]

I voted for the Start of season roster's as I know personally how much work goes into creating the roster's. I usually update my own for about a half a year or less but slack with real life obligations leaving my EHM 07 with outdated rosters on a occasional basis. I appreciate every single minute you guys use to keeping this game as real as possible and cannot thank the community enough on keeping a pulse going with the outdated and aging game that keeps us thinking and strategizing.

To come out with rolling outdates is a great option as well, but with so much work on keeping people motivated and spending so much time keeping them updated it seems more of a burnout process than anything.

[nino33]

I voted for "season opening rosters"
It seems to me with rolling updates some things/leagues are up-to-date and others are not (and maybe a different approach will allow more Attributes to be reviewed/updated); when a new season/career is started in EHM it always starts at the beginning of the year HaHa and so to me "season starting rosters" makes the most sense...

I voted for rolling updates, because it's kind of the best of both worlds. At some point you'll release a roster set that represents the start of the season. If this is kept available for separate download, people can use it when they want 'season opener' rosters

Are you saying this because of the Lockout?
I didn't think there was a Lidas/Manimal database that represtented "season-opener rosters" (at least not in recent years)


Also, I think that while most professional leagues may have been “up-to-date” with rolling updates it seemed to me major junior, college/university and (bantam) prospects was less so, and perhaps a set date will allow more of these players/leagues to be updated/added (i.e. more young players)

In closing, while I I agree with Alessandro I'm OK with the rolling rosters if that's what's decided!



Regards

[CeeBee]

I voted season opening rosters because I think it would take less work and maybe allow more time for other improvements/updates. The game plays from season start so I'm quite fine with season starting rosters for the year.
p.s. Thanks to the whole crew that works on these updates!!!! It's what is keeping this game great even after all these years

[archibalduk]

I voted for rolling updates. I can't say I'm hugely fussed either way (I'll be happy with either). Initially I thought season-start would be a bad idea, but I can see the benefit. It would allow us more time throughout the season to tidy up and update the non-playable leagues (e.g. the various minor leagues which ultimately feed into the playable leagues).

My main concern is about how we can find season-start roster details. Sites like Eliteprospects (an essential site certainly for updating the Euro leagues IMO) show up-to-date rosters - I don't think they have any facility for showing snapshots of season-start rosters, do they? I'm also worried about how long it would take each summer to implement a season's worth of trades. I'd rather see the first seasonal update released sooner than November like we did this time (but there was so much to do for v5.0 - would it take us even longer if we have a season's worth of trades to do??). But maybe it's not as bad as I think, seeing as we can simply list the trades in Excel and import them via the EHM Updater.

[Primis]

I voted for Rolling because quite frankly if you wait until the offseason for transactions, the offseason update will then suffer with all the transactions that have to be caught up on, and the other thing like attributes and team info won't get the love they need.

This is especially important since the minor league Silly Season doesn't really start until the offseason with teams folding, moving leagues, relocating, etc.

[nino33]

quite frankly if you wait until the offseason for transactions, the offseason update will then suffer with all the transactions that have to be caught up on

Hmmm...a list (csv file) could be started anytime (don't have to wait until the actual off-season to start), and all the transactions can be made with the EHM Updater in seconds!

the other thing like attributes and team info won't get the love they need.

This is especially important since the minor league Silly Season doesn't really start until the offseason with teams folding, moving leagues, relocating, etc.

IMO you're totally right about the team info (Silly Season), but it seems to me that under the rolling updates Attributes were still not getting the love they need (lack of researchers seemed to be an issue recently)

[kadri43]

i voted for rolling because i hate to always restart the game and it's more realistic.

[kadri43]

i dont know if its possible but both of them would be great

[batdad]

Rolling makes total sense to me. I don't see how it is more work than season start, contrary to some points above. With rolling you just make the changes as transactions come in real life and put them in the database. You take a couple of seconds to do each one...then move on to do whatever else you are working on in the db. If you do season start....that is cool as well....as whoever is doing the work should have the choice.

But I really only see the amount of work being EXACTLY the same. The release we get...1.0 2.0 3.0 I see as season start rosters....then every release we get after that updates the issues in the db...rosters, maybe attributes, maybe prospects so .....all good.

For example 5.0 is the "Season start" roster to me. Now 5.1 5.2 etc will be different, but better as more work has been done. I

I just don't really see the difference either way. OTher than having Russian names spelled in English-Russian. Weird to me...wish we could have the Russian Cyrillic spelling of their names actually. Take that over the weirder than Nittmaaakiiiiiiii spellings.

[leafsnation]

Although I voted for season start, I agree with batdad. Although, I usually update the transactions myself between updates using the Pre-game editor and haven't had any corruption issues.

As for both...you can already do that by saving each update separately and maintaining separate databases...just rename them in your data folder as you copy them over.

[AP21]

I voted for "Start of season rosters", but I simply want the option that will give me the most up-to-date, exhaustive and accurate DB to start a franchise, no matter when its starting point is (don't mind waiting until November). I would rather put more effort into a single update that includes all player history and team info changes. I appreciate rolling updates, but I find them less realistic, as players obtained at the trade deadline are already on their new team to start the season. I also have a tendency to start a franchise over when I find too many errors in the database. That being said, the most important thing is to keep the creators and researchers happy and motivated. If rolling updates are more demanding and certain details are compromised, then go for the start-of-season ones. However, if rolling updates are just as exhaustive and accurate, I would simply use the October/November version every year and live happily ever after.

[Manimal]

I voted for rolling updates.
For me as a researcher that is what motivates me. If it were season-start rosters then I'd be getting very bored with only player rating and creating as my task.
I do not see either one as taking much more time or effort than the other. Especially now with the EHM Updater

[Stastny26]

Personally, I'm just not interested in playing with the old rosters, so definitely vote for Rolling update rosters.
I had better make all transfers in major leagues than I will play with the old rosters.

[AaronRStanley]

I voted for rolling roster updates, but I propose an idea.

Instead of constantly updating the roster, I would propose only two updates to the roster a year.

There is the Season Opening Roster, which is updated over the summer. Then have that roster untouched until one of two arbitrary points on the NHL calender, either the approximate half way point of the season, or after the trade deadline.

Then the next update would be the Season Opening Roster for the next year.

Allows for months between updates where other parts of the DB can be worked on.

[jhart05]

I voted Season Opening Roster.

Less time is spent on the actual rosters and more time can be spent on fine tuning ratings and such. Let the user add in whichever mid-season trades or transactions they see fit.

You are the GM in this game. You should be able to make or not make those transactions the real GM made in the real NHL season. You think the real GM was an idiot for trading that guy away? Well you can not make the trade in your universe and see what happens.

Then use AaronRStanley's idea of issuing a trade deadline roster set. By then I would assume all players and any ratings that needed to be fine tuned would be done.

[jhart05]

"Hmmm...a list (csv file) could be started anytime (don't have to wait until the actual off-season to start), and all the transactions can be made with the EHM Updater in seconds!"

Having never worked on rosters for this particular game, if this statement by nino33 is indeed true, then I think your answer is simple.

You post both.

1) Start with the Season Opening Roster file. Always make all your player additions, ratings updates, player history, etc ... to this file. Post updated versions of it as needed.
2) Keep a .csv file of the transactions. Post the .csv file here in the downloads section or ...
3) Import the .csv file into the Season Opening Roster file, which apparently doesn't take much, and you post this new file as the Rolling Update Roster file.

Your 2012-13 Rolling Update Roster file becomes your 2013-14 Season Opening Roster file when you add in the newly drafted players.

[Reave]

I've always liked updated rosters, so I voted on rolling update.

[Hobbit13]

Fully agree with nino, was thinking the same thing earlier. Your EHM updater has opened many new opportunities for EHM and this is one of them! It is a bit more work but if someone is up for doing it then I think it's the best solution. Otherwise I prefer start of season rosters so I voted for them.

[archibalduk]

Thanks to everybody who voted. The poll closed earlier today and it finished very close indeed.

Alessandro has decided that he will continue with rolling updates for the remainder of this season. He will then review it next summer. It is going to take us the good part of this season in order to get the rosters fully updated and so it makes sense to continue rolling updates for the time being.

With regards to running two versions of the DB (both rolling and start-of-season), this would be very time consuming and would be a full time job in itself. It's not as simple as you might first think. I wrote a long explanation about why in our Researcher Forum. It's pretty long and dull, but I'm happy to post it here if people are interested.

[adawxawx]

Why would you choose rolling? What is the purpose?

If it was start of season rosters, then how ever updated the database is, when I start a season the rosters are correct. But with rolling, if I wanted to start the 2011-12 season, and the latest update is updated after trade deadline, I have all these inaccurate transactions for my specified time period (carter to LA, hodgson to buffalo, ETC ETC). How is this desireable? The game starts in the summer, not after trade deadline! These deals haven't even occured yet!

So either I use the un updated rosters, or I have to manually roll back all the transactions. Congratulations!

Reading through this thread, I haven't even read any logical argument in favour of rolling. Just unbelieveable. I just dont understand. But, what can you do, people don't operate based on logic.

[archibalduk]

Hang on, that's more than a little unfair.

We ran a poll over over the course of two weeks giving everybody the opportunity to vote how they would prefer the rosters to be developed. The logic behind the decision is quite simply that 54% of users voted in favour of rolling updates. Some people like to play with the most up-to-date rosters. Some don't. It's personal preference. I don't see how either decision can be regarded as illogical - they both have their merits.

Perhaps you should bear in mind that we don't have many volunteers who help with the roster updating. Thus those of us that do help have to spend hundreds of hours updating. If we are to use start-of-season updates, we would have to update 35,000 players and 10,000 staff with their new contract/team details over the course of the summer. How can we do that with only a tiny handful of researchers?!!! We would of course have given it our best shot if that's what the poll dictated, but realistically we couldn't get the entire rosters ready for season start by spending just the summer updating transactions. We need to spread the work over the course of the year in order to give ourselves any sort of chance.

In any event, you can always download the v5.0 rosters which are essentially start of season anyway. So what's the problem?!!!

[nino33]

Reading through this thread, I haven't even read any logical argument in favour of rolling.

only a tiny handful of researchers

While I too supported the s-o-s rosters, as one who has done a lot of editing and has helped a bit with the Manimal/TBL Rosters, IMO the lack of researchers is most definitely (and logically) the issue! The rolling roster/database work that Manimal, Alessandro, Archi and a few others have done takes an enormous amount of time, and the HUGE effort is greatly appreciated by many!

or I have to manually roll back all the transactions.

If you do decide to do this you can at least use the EHM Updater that Archi created to do so! And of course you could then share your work with others!