Challenge Ideas

Post by **Danny** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:48 pm

I haven't had the time to read all posts completely yet but I kinda get the notion and agree that something needs to be done to make it more interesting and difficult without sacrificing too much "GM freedom".

We could think about certain minimums, like Football clubs have done (in real life that is), minimum of players below 23, minimum of players who came from within, draftees or acquired rights, simply players who weren't on an NHL contract when you got them. I don't think you can change anything without enforcing new rules, and new rules doesn't necessarily mean less fun

Also, I demand Marleau to be censored as well, rubbish

Post by **batdad** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:15 pm

Hmmm....a minimum # of players from the roster of the challenge team that you start with? Like a core # of players you must use? Danny--You may be on to something here. Some freedom to still move players for anyone, but some players you must use. This could be part of the solution...what does everyone think?

I think half the players would be too much...so less than 12 may be a good number. Because (I am thinking out loud here) the salary cap would possibly make the issues you have making the team a "super team" harder if you have to keep a certain number of players...hmmm...

Post by **Danny** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:47 pm

Well you're forcing me to think my idea over thoroughly now

I wasn't thinking about having to keep a certain amount of players from the original roster. Not that this was a bad idea, I just meant something else. But yeah, keeping like 10 roster players from the original team sounds good too.
But that comes with another question, should this number change for the following season(s) or not ? Like, 10 in the first year, 8 in the second, and how many if it's a long challenge ?

Anyway, let me elaborate a little bit on my suggestion

a) certain amount of players under a certain age, 23-24 or something, since players get older in the game the dealine would be the beginning of the season for instance. You NEED to have them in your line up, not just in your system, for all I care 3 or 4 of them, and if one is injured you have to replace him with someone who's not older than that. Whether they're your own signed prospects or players you traded for doesn't matter. Of course, not that easy to control, there's hardly a way to find out whether everyone had 3-4 players under 23 dressed for every game without a ton of screenshots, I'm aware of that, just thinking out loud

b) minimum of players, regardless of their age, who were not on an NHL contract before. Players you drafted, players from your unsigned prospects pool, players you acquired the rights for, whatever, the aim is to have at least 3 players on the roster who never were on an NHL contract before. And if you trade one of them away a one point you've got to replace him with another player who fulfils the requirements. Again, of course controlling this is hardly possible.

Something else that came to my mind, not related to the aforementioned

c) a certain percentage of the cap must be spent on young players. I'm just currently having a hard time figuring out the conditions for "young player" and the percentage.

I'm aware this all sounds a bit complicated now. Maybe too complicated. But it leaves room for everyone to be creative with their roster making it a bit more difficult and challenging at the same time. Keep in mind the numbers mentioned above are just examples, it's not like I tested it for months and found out those numbers are perfect.

Post by **batdad** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:14 pm

I like your way of thinking Mr. Danny.

a and b and c would be very difficult to monitor as you say. I know you are thinking out loud...

I think we need to work on something with

1. having GM's use players that are in that team's system at the beginning of the game. Be they superstars, depth players, minor leaguers, rookies...(say 10 or so??) and still leave the flexibility to make some moves and add some guys to improve the team.

2. something that involves having GM develop their own prospects, and get them into the NHL on their roster. Not just trading for the usual suspects. An example for me is Gilbert Brule---in the CBJ challenge people traded him away over and over because they could get a great player for him and a pick or scrub. For me, I kept him...and went on with the team after the challenge...Boom...dude was scoring over 100 pts every year. (My blog sort of talks about it, but I kind of lost touch with the blog. I think in 2008-09 he scored 124 pts or something). If we make the challenges longer, developing these in-house guys should be part of it.

3. On your pt C...I think alot of guys trade for young players and get them in the lineup any way. I know Bruins has done this. But mostly with Sharks (another slap--really want a beating the dead horse smilie)...same with Catchup.

Again, I do not want to tell people they "have" to do something, I want them to have choices, yet to limit the choices a wee bit...so we don't end up with the SAME OLD SUPER TEAMS that we have always had in the past.

We also have to be sure that few screenshots are required, because the more there are the less people willing to join the challenge. Have to balance things a bit, but these are great points to work with. Thanks Danny.

Post by **Danny** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:04 pm

Yay, now we just need a genius to mold those ideas into an acceptable form, from an organizational point of view

How about making the top 5-10 prospects as well as any players drafted in the first round during the game untouchable ? Means you can let their rights expire or waive them but you can't trade them. This doesn't enforce anything (you still have the choice whether or not to use them) but encourages people to use them since they can't get any value back for them anyway.

There's also the possibility of not touching the rulebook at all but reward people who use own prospects, like, you sign one of your prospects and he scores 20 goals -> bonus points
Just another thinking out loud process

On another note, although I do like the cap being at 36m and don't want it to be increased it kinda does force people to do a ton of trades. When you start with a team that's just below the real life cap you first need to cut 8m of the salary, that's 3-4 good solid or 2 very good players. Once you cut the salary down to 36 you're left with a (quite likely) more or less naff team and you need to replace the players you've lost dumping salary. So you need to trade again. There's a lot of risk involved doing this, hence people tend to go for their favourites they're used to from other careers.

Alright I'll leave you alone with my suggestions for a while

Post by **batdad** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:02 am

No sweat Danny.

The cap issue is one of the ways we are trying to put the "challenge" back in the challenges. So far, it appears that it is ineffective, so we are looking at doing some other things...possibly. Not 100% on that.

I think that in order to prevent "super teams" like the Leafs one I had...we need to do more on top of limiting the cap a bit...but I am not sure..we shall see. Still thinking it out.

However, the ideas presented in this thread are really making us think alot, and hopefully we can pin things down. Once we do...the challenges should hopefully become as exciting as they once were.

Post by **archibalduk** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:40 pm

Over the past year and a half, a large chunk of our community have been competing in the TBL Challenge competitions. They've been a real blast to play and it has provided an insight into how other users play the game. However, the Challenges are in danger of becoming too much of the same with everyone winning the Playoffs and the Presidents Trophy regardless of what team we choose for the competition. Also, most of us are guilty of shipping out the vast majority of the team's original roster and replacing them with the same players every time.

So it's about time we introduced some new twists to make things even more fun and exciting! We've brought in a couple of new rules that will encourage competitors to make the most of their original team and to develop talent from within, but that will also give them the flexibility to put their own mark on the team. We've designed and tested these rules with simplicity in mind so that the Challenges remain as approachable for both new and old users as they have always been.

So without further ado, I introduce to you: Core Players, The Home Grown Player, and the all new Roster and Trade Rules!

* Core roster players - At the beginning of the first season, GMs will have to choose ten "core" players from a list of designated players. There will be three types of core player. For each one of the ten you choose, they will have to play a minimum number of games according to what type of core player they are.

* The Home Grown player - Beginning in season 2 (2007-08), each challenge GM will be required to have a homegrown player on his or her NHL roster. This player will be a player in "your system". The homegrown player will be required to play 45 games in what would be his rookie season. Provided the homegrown reaches 45 games he can be sent up and down between your minor league system and your NHL club.

* New roster and trade restrictions include a no trade period to prevent users from exploiting a weakness in EHM's trade engine and a limit on the number of free agents that may be signed each season.

We've thoroughly tested these new rules and are confident that they will add a welcome new twist to the Challenges. We hope that they will see a shift in mentality from aiming to win the Playoffs, regardless of the team, to one where the aims for the season will be realistically based on what team we choose for the Challenge.

The detailed rules will be released in the very near future - as will a poll to vote for the next Challenge team.

Post by **batdad** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:51 pm

Roster rules and regulations are now up in the stickied areas.

All the different rules areas have some changes to them...PLEASE REVIEW ALL OF THE 5 RULE SETS stickied up at the top, before we play the next challenge.

Please make yourself familiar with them. If you have any questions please post them here.

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:52 pm

Great to see this going into effect! This is going to really change the challenges. For everyone that is sick of seeing the same handful of us win these challenges every time... now is your chance! Sick of seeing the same super-teams every time? You won't see those either. This new format is going to keep things more realistic. Change is gradual!

I'm almost done with a new Excel spreadsheet for recording your challenge data and I'm also going to be including a sheet for managing your core roster players and homegrown players. Expect to see this very soon!

Post by **batdad** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:57 pm

Yes this is new and exciting.

Oh and in particular thanks to many of our users, who have come up with some great ideas in this thread, and in other areas...which we have tried to bend/fold/manipulate/edit/completely discard/use to the tee, and make this challenge experience even better.

Please, let us know any of your thoughts here, because this is our first go around at this, and if there are things that are EXCELLENT we want to know about em. Same goes for things about the challenge rules YOU DO NOT LIKE! We can look at it, and change again if need be.

fishi · Post by **fishi** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:09 pm

Shall we use the unfaked db?

Great new rules and ideas btw, I'm really looking forward to the next challenge.

Post by **batdad** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:15 pm

Fishi--The rules will allow for 1 of 2 databases to be used

1. The TBL:DB (Devils88's database)

2. The official database 3.04 that comes with the game.

I am glad you like the look of the new rules. We have tried hard to make it more interesting for all of us. Bruins and I are particularly tired of freaking Patrick Marleau and CatchUp.. Even though the guy could not beat us with him...

Anyway, when we get into this (team picked) and roster selection out...we will then start with the fun!!

Good luck to ya!

Post by **archibalduk** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:15 pm

fishi wrote:Shall we use the unfaked db?

You can use either the original 3.0.4 database or the TBL:DB database.

However, you cannot use any other altered/custom database.

fishi · Post by **fishi** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:53 pm

I see, I hope that as many people as possible is going to join this challenge although it's in the middle of the summer.

Post by **batdad** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:05 pm

Yep...we know that. We want to give something right now to those who really love EHM...and to our Australian members (do we have any?) who are in the middle of their hockey season!!!

Nah...in all seriousness...this should be fun no matter what. I think most of the mods here are doing this one, and I know a few regulars like you will as well!

There has actually been a fair bit of activity on this board this summer. So it should be good. Also...if you look at the number of people downloading our database, it is pretty clear there are still quite a few playing this game right now.

fishi · Post by **fishi** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:11 pm

time will tell.... anyhowe, i think it will be grate!

off topic: crazy trade between bruins and the blues today.

Post by **archibalduk** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:45 am

The Challenge Announcements Box is now the place to find links to the five rules threads:

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:50 pm

Glad to hear you like the sounds of the rules, fishi! It was a lot of fun having you participate in the last challenge. I'm sure you'll have even more fun in our next one with the new rules in place.

I really encourage everyone to join in on our next challenge. It's going to level the playing field quite a bit.

Post by **Danny** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:58 pm

I'm still slightly confused about the core players rule

1. "Each challenge team will be set up with a “core” roster of 10 players for the first season of the challenge. This core will be chosen by challenge GM’s prior to the first regular season games"

So all participants get to select those players in a poll or something like that and this core will be the same for everyone, as opposed to every participating GM selecting players individually ?

2. "The core will be chosen from 3 groups, which will be listed by a mod or admin specific to each challenge"

Doesn't that kinda contradict with point 1 ?

Could anyone please demonstrate how this whole routine works in practice ? Don't care which team you choose, just for information purposes. Sorry for being a moron

Thanks for coming up with some ideas though, can't wait till the next challenge, and I might even not miss the deadline because of holidays

Post by **CatchUp** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:18 pm

Danny wrote:Could anyone please demonstrate how this whole routine works in practice ? Don't care which team you choose, just for information purposes.

Hi Danny,

I can't provide a demonstration of how the rules work, but I can answer your first two questions.

Each individual GM will choose their 10 'core' players from three lists. The lists are chosen by the Mods/Admins and are as follows:

1. The core will be chosen from 3 groups, which will be listed by a mod or admin specific to each challenge. You will be required to select a certain number of players from each group, but there will be plenty of choice. Not all players on the challenge team’s roster may be listed in the groups. Not all star players will be either.

Group A: Elite players. These could be players with a lot of talent, 1st line players, or could be players with large contracts as well, that may or may not be top level players.

Group B: Mid tier players These could be players with 1st/2nd line talent and reasonable contracts, or 2nd, 3rd liners with large contracts.

Group C: Prospects/Depth players These could be players who are young prospects, or veteran depth players.

Does that clear it up for you?

Post by **Danny** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:28 pm

Alright, yeah, so I assume every group will consist of about 10 players (if you count the AHL roster) and I will get to choose 3-4 from each group I would have to keep, right ?

Post by **batdad** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:51 pm

Hi Danny...yep you are on target. There will be different numbers of players in each group to choose from.

For example in the CBJ test that a few of us played we did it this way:

Group A: Fedorov, Foote, Carter (must take 1 of 3)

Group B: Frederik Modin, Zherdev, Malhotra, Leclaire, Conklin, Berard, Klesla, Westcott (must pick 5 of 8)

Group C: Jaroslav Balastik, Picard, Brule, Shelley, Chimera, Kloucek,Johnson, Eriksson (Must pick 4 of 8)

**So you know....I will make sure you always have double the players to choose from. So if you have to pick 5 you will have 10 players to pick.

**Also: Notice no Nash, Vyborny in the lists. Each team will have players off the list who are valuable in one way or another for the possibility of trade etc.

Post by **CatchUp** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:55 pm

thanks b-diddy.

That's what I should have said in the first place.

Post by **batdad** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:01 pm

Yeah I forgot to say that Danny. You are far from a moron.

When we were setting all this stuff up, and asked what people wanted in this thread, we were amazed at the responses you gave in this thread...because they were so similar to what we were thinking. Well DONE!

Post by **Danny** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:05 pm

Ha, now I'm pumped up

Since the number of core players decreases every season, I could theoretically pick Fedorov as the only one from group A to keep and trade him after the first season and be left without any "original" group A players from the second season on, provided I keep enough players from group B and C to meet the requirements, right ?

I promise that's the last question.

For today

thanks batdad