What core improvements need to be made to the game?

[archibalduk]

I think it's fair to say that there are many users on TBL, the HFBoards and perhaps even the OOTP Forums expressing the view that FHM is bordering on unplayable. This probably sums up the view quite well:

Haven't touched the game much though tbh, the interface is just too clunky and the game still cant get the basics right, which is sad, because the mechanics behind it seem to be awesome and the dev team really trying to create the game we all have been waiting for so long. That being said i just think they have endangered the whole project by wanting too much too early, They should have made a hockey sim that gets the basics right and has an underlying system that makes all the possibilities we want doable in the future , at the moment they seem to want to do everything at once like historical gameplay, fictional leagues etc. , complicated historical drafts with different leagues and specific rules and seem to forget the basic game a bit which i fear will seriously mark it as flawed product that doesn't even get basics right come release. Its really a bummer because this game has endless potential. But i wont let my hopes down totally and wish everything sorts itself out in the long run, just hope the game gets that chance on the market despite its flaws that i think wouldn't have been necessary. Basics first should have been the motto more. When you look a the forums its all about "special rule " in WHL draft or something, will the interface and game sim are total jokes still. Doesn't make me too optimistic

Although the first official release isn't out until 3rd September, I thought it might be a good idea to compile a list of all of the core improvements that we feel need to be made to the game (seeing as this is a much-discussed topic right now). By "core" I mean the basic core game and not all of the different league rules, fictional mode, etc. Once things have settled down after the release of version 1, I'll compile all of the suggestions from this thread into a list and send it to the OOTP devs.

Here are some suggestions that come immediately to mind:

- Although the general UI theme is now much better, there are a number of little glitches with text being cut-off halfway down the letters because there isn't enough room to display the whole line (e.g. on league/stats tables).
- It is really difficult to navigate through the teams and leagues. Perhaps there could be left and right arrows on each team screen so that you can quickly navigate through the teams. Also, perhaps on the League Menu there could be arrows to navigate through leagues from the same nation - rather than having to navigate through that huge drop-down list of nations and leagues.
- The tactics screen is probably my least favourite screen. It's far too cluttered. Perhaps it could be split into a number of different sub-screens/views.
- Better tactical options rather than just using v. Def -> Normal -> v. Off (these options would look better as sliders rather than drop-down menus). Things like breakout strategies, PP and PK strategies, etc. I don't see how I can setup simple things like neutral zone trap using the current options in FHM.
- I don't feel immersed into the hockey game like I do with EHM. I can just fly through the seasons without doing very much. I think whenever you finish a match or you have clicked on the Continue button, it should show you the scores just simmed (rather than just the League Home for your current league). Also, perhaps there could be more news items that require your active involvement. It feels like most news can be ignored without any user involvement/input right now.

[nino33]

For me I think the core issues are gameplay and tactics

I thought this recent post asked some great gameplay questions http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/3 ... post8.html and if questions like these were answered, I'd feel better about the direction things are going in; while I'm impressed with what's "under the hood" with FHM, if it's not enabled or doesn't work properly it won't really matter

Team tactics are extremely basic, and personal tactics don't seem to exist (is the gameplay to simplistic for detailed tactics?)

From my own testing efforts and from reading about the efforts of others it is a little hard to be sure of much given the basic playability/testability issues that continue

An Editor is "core" to me too. I have concerns in this area, given that OOTP14 still has no PreGame Editor let alone something as great as the EHM Updater. If I have to do all of my editing within the game via commissioner mode I can't see ever creating a "database" like I have with EHM



P.S. I may be a lone voice, but I wish the FHM Forums were more like the TBL Forums.
The zillions of repetitive posts, the lack of moderator activity, and the hyperbole/negativity bother me greatly (and I think it's going to soon be much worse).
I actually resigned as an FHM researcher yesterday because I didn't want to continue to feel so stressed/unhappy
I still hope for the future of FHM, but I'm going back to my hoping "from afar"

[Animal31]

I dont even care about the Core

theres so many little things wrong with it

Like, I should be able to sign a head coach
I should be able to assign tasks to staff other than just my assistant
I should be able to assign tasks to my scouts like "Draft" "Region; *select region* "Pro" "amateur" "next opposition" "own system" "league" etc, and that should apear on the scout when I try to scout a player, so I dont accidentally tell my draft guy to scout all of my players
The same context menu should apear when you right click a player, no matter what screen you're on
When a player is injured, there should be a rostor hole to which you are asked if you want to "Fix all lines" "fill hole" or "manually edit"
Dressing players should be a one click process, not a right click menu
Games need to be faster, theres 82 of them
Menu navigation needs to way easier
obviously the UI needs to be improved


Like its trying to be Football Manager, and failing, while trying to be EHM, and failing

[B. Stinson]

- The tactics screen is probably my least favourite screen. It's far too cluttered. Perhaps it could be split into a number of different sub-screens/views.
- Better tactical options rather than just using v. Def -> Normal -> v. Off (these options would look better as sliders rather than drop-down menus). Things like breakout strategies, PP and PK strategies, etc. I don't see how I can setup simple things like neutral zone trap using the current options in FHM.

I second this. I was really hoping the tactics screen would be cleaned up, and more importantly, the tactics themselves would be much less generic than "offensive/normal/defensive".

And I agree with Nino's definition of core features. In a game like this, the absolute must-haves are tactics, team/roster management, and the simulation of the effects of these two elements.

[Primis]

I don't care about some of the bugs, or wonky simming results, etc. And while I agree the Commish Mode is a mess still and would like a true editor as well, it's honestly not what's holding FHM back.

The current UI just isn't working though. We're months in and many of us took a "We'll see after a while" approach while we familiarized ourselves with it.... and months later the UI just still totally sucks to navigate. The tab groupings, the tab placement, the categorizing of some menus under League, some under Team... the UI is just a hot mess and plain needs a total overhaul. Not a tweak. Not moving a few things. They literally need to scrap their whole idea of the UI, and completely redo it another way.

Because the UI sucks, it interferes with everything else. I hate to be seemingly-vague, but truly I'm having trouble even coming up with a menu or screen that is ok as-is. It often feels like there are two tabs or screens that could and should be consolidated into one. Let me see if I can come up with a good enough example though of what I mean by how far gone the UI is.

The original freeware EHM got by with only 14 tabs/screens and maybe 3 or 4 them having essentially an A/B toggle sort of button of some fashion. All those screens gave you what you needed, with scrolling on a few. That's not a ton, and yet it got the job more than done.

NHL EHM's interface originally was somewhat a mess too honestly. I believe it was a menu of 5 or 6 items along the top, and then sidebar menus under that. They rearranged things though starting with 2005 so essentially for me at least I don't even use the menus at the top ever now in 2007. The sidebar menus are intelligent enough I don't need to. And perhaps most miraculously of all, SI eventually discovered what SCROLLING FRAMES was and it allowed them to fit more info into key screens. If I want to look at a player, I pull up his profile and get all relevant info (physical details, contract, likes dislikes, attributes, and some relevant season stats even) on one... single...screen. I can click to another screen to give scouting info if I've scouted, and another for career history. But from that main player screen, I have a couple frames that can scroll if I need to and most all info I could want is located there.

Somehow in FHM if I pull up a player profile I go to the Profile Tab. For all the info on that Profile tab, there's actually very little of use there. So to actually see individual attributes I have to click on the Ratings Tab. To see contract breakdown, I need to click on a separate Contract tab. 3 screens already. Is there ANY reason that can't be combined into 1 single screen? Let me answer: no there is not. OOTP doesn't seem to understand what scrolling frames are and how they help you fit more info onto less screens/tabs. Instead it's clunky static screen after clunky static screen of data and info.

Stop making me click all over to get the basic info I need! It's stupid, it really is. With sports management sims you have to give the player as much info at any time as humanly possible, even if it seems redundant at times. Every single click you make the player do is precious and even subconsciously the player will keep a running total in their head. And if they have to make too many clicks, they start to zone out, then lose interest altogether.


By the time you then add in the number of things still just broken or disabled (seriously, how the $#@&* many months does it take to fix it so you can hire coaching staff properly? Why does clicking on some things STILL instantly kill the game and require you to uninstall and flush your DB's?) you have a real, real mess. I've said it before: the game right now is a glorified alpha, not even a beta. It's downright embarrassing that they continue to claim it as a beta close to completion.

[Alessandro]

Any thing that would hook you to the game. This game is deep and promising, but it's boring like hell. I've got nothing to do for my team

[helmespc]

- News items that don't mention the team a player is currently playing for....
- Excessive injuries / news items pertaining to injuries
- The main page should include a daily schedule / scoreboard, right now it takes a few clicks to see game scores
- Easy to access box scores
- Consolidated stats (instead of skater stats 1, 2, 3)
- Better trade feedback
- More information on player performance (stats don't tell enough about grinders / stay at home defensemen, etc)
- Maybe silly, but the ability to fire/hire head coach rather than ME be the head coach(!)
- News items for call ups from the minors
- Information about when a player was drafted
- Lists constantly resetting scroll bars to the top, not retaining sort order
- Ditch the attribute graphs, they are worthless clutter

[batdad]

STRNGEHT

As I said in the other forum, 1st impressions count. 1st impressions in this game are all in screen shots of the UI, or actually going in and using the UI. If little tiny issues like spelling don't matter to them, and they do not take a few seconds to fix them, why would the clunkiness of the UI matter?

AI, tactics all of that are impressions given after the fact. I cannot even get past the first impression to check these things out with ANY in depth detail, and I Know from what people have said there are many others. Unless they fix the first impressions of the game they are in trouble. Only about 20-30 percent of people are willing to go past first impressions and look more deeply at the game. And i give those people pats on the back for doing so. But for the majority of people (Those who post things like I opened it, tried it, and closed it..will go back to it in the future to check and see if the stuff is better and fixed) ...are first impression people.

FHM has a bad first impression. A horrible one in fact, and it will turn off many people. Fix the UI and the screens and go from there to work on the more in depth issues. And in depth issues include things like the ability to hire a head coach and all of that. You have to be able to get past actually looking at a screen before you can actually hire a coach.

[nino33]

I actually resigned as an FHM researcher yesterday

I'm back working on FHM. The days passed and I was still working many hours everyday on FHM (compiling roster/attribute data using commissioner mode and a 1974 start date), I still really believe in the potential of the game, and I'd done a lot of prep work for the WHL editing.....it really made more sense to work on the WHL - so I'm back at it!

[m0fownz0r]

I share many of the opinions above. Namely, they should've lay down the basics first. The UI is based on mindless clickfest, the information is spread across many different tabs and screens for no apparent reason . There are no real tactical options, the only real challenging thing to do on the tactics screen is set your lines. I don't feel involved with the game/team, you just click away your season without ever doing anything. All those things have been pointed out since day one yet the only change I notice to date is that you can sim a season without crashing now...

[helmespc]

One positive.... I really enjoyed the way that Free Agency is handled and the AI surrounding it.... some of the contracts are a little high, but the overall July 1 experience is really well done.... I like that the players will give you feedback as they are making their decisions and give you a chance to modify your offer or walk away.

[Animal31]

some of the contracts are a little high

Realism

[danzoeee]

Don't know about core improvements tho.. And I agree with pretty much everyone else above me has said, but i find it really hard to play FHM instead of EHM just beacuse of the 2D "ingame" screen. Atleast then I know how my tactic is working out, i can watch it close to see if I need to have X on less aggression etc.

You can't in FHM and therefor I'm sticking with EHM for now atleast..

[dave1927p]

don't feel immersed into the hockey game like I do with EHM

I agree with this but at the same time I'd say that has something to do with the UI. It's very difficult to navigate to screens to view other stats of players not only in your league but in the game world. EHM did a better job at making it feel like a living world.

No question the UI as listed above already by others is a big concern. It becomes very tedious and ultimately frustrating navigating through the screens. But even with that said I can live with it for the first version.

Biggest concern of them all: I have no idea what defensive players are playing great and others that are not. I shouldn't have to go by their "ability" as there are hundreds of players with great ability that don't play like it. I can't tell from there stats all I need to know. I truly think that this game has to add some sort of Average Rating. I read the lists of Norris Trophy winners and I'm just floored by some of the winners. Even goalies, look at the flyers goalies over the years: they have overall solid save percentages but they'd let in too many weak goals at bad times so they were ultimately shipped out of town...how can you tell this in FHM? You can't. Two goalies with similar stats can be viewed far differently in the real world but in FHM you can't see it.

In the advanced settings I see an Average rating column there so I have no idea what they are going to be doing with it, but I really think they have to do something.



Some other things:

- News: minimal to nothing interesting feeling almost irrelevant
- Draft Logs: Why aren't they in? I thought it was just not a priority for them but now i'm very much getting worried.
- Draft Screen: There needs to be at least the ISS ratings or top 200...would be nice to have both ISS Ratings and A full list from your scout to compare.
- main manager page is weak and not the place I normally want to be
- short list section not good enough: One of the fun things about managing a junior team or European team is watching your players grow and following their careers of professional hockey (in the NHL)...it is quite difficult to do that here.
- filtering for everything needs to be added, especially for playing as a European team looking through the free agent pool
- awards and how they are displayed is very disappointing just like in ootp. They would of been better copying EHM in this aspect than ootp as it's quite a weak and outdated aspect In ootp.

[archibalduk]

Yeah I completely agree with what you say. The UI really does stop me from feeling immersed. And all those other things you mention at the end of your post just add to it further.

I envy the fact that you can live with the UI for the first version. I've been desperately trying with the most recent internal builds over the past few weeks, but I'm really struggling to get over it. I just find it so slow and tedious. I'm constantly having to click on menu after menu to find things and there's a lot of stuff that's hidden unless you know on which screen there is a button to it. The game almost rubs salt into the wound so-to-speak by not letting me do things I'd expect would be a given for a hockey sim - such as hiring and firing staff and being able to search for players with different skills/attributes - and then there's the issue with the game demanding you fix your lines whenever you click on continue even if you don't have a game that day. So I end up leaving virtually everything to my AI staff and keep clicking on Continue. Before I know it I've simmed a season and have done nothing. Where was the fun in that?

In an ideal world, I've love to see a complete overhaul of the navigation at the top of the screen. I don't like how I keep having to open a menu to do anything. I'd much rather have a ribbon-style menu at the top of the screen, similar to MS Office:



But that's probably not feasible because the particular menu system used in FHM is the OOTP way of doing things. However, ultimately I can live with that menu system so long as the rest of the UI is worked on. It's not that system per se which is causing me issues (I can use the menu system in OOTPB 14 without any real difficulty) - it's the implementation of the UI that's causing the difficulty.

Something that OOTP Baseball now has is a vertical shortcut bar which runs along the right edge of the screen. This is something I would love to see added to FHM. It would make the game instantly easier to navigate:

[Lazion]

Something that OOTP Baseball now has is a vertical shortcut bar which runs along the right edge of the screen. This is something I would love to see added to FHM. It would make the game instantly easier to navigate:

I never really used that shortcut bar because there's no explanation for icons and it's kind of messy. I always forgot where each icon leads and most of the time I had to go trough few extra screens.

[Primis]

See, I think that Shortcut bar is as much of a mess as the menus at the top.

Adding a mess to fix another mess is not a fix of any sort.

OOTP just plain needs to cut down on FHM's number of screen, period. Until they do, any other solution is going to be a mess like that "Shortcut" bar.

[helmespc]

I think they need to stop relying on the poor OOTP UI altogether and just blow the interface up and start over... when I first heard that OOTP was making a hockey sim, my first thought was "oh no, not that terrible interface...".... for all the things that OOTP does right, the front end never has been one of them.

[dave1927p]

Yes, I'm the say way as you with the toolbar. I really don't use it in ootp but i find that i don't need to. Overall things are much easier to navigate compared to FHM. I would agree that OOTP strength is not their UI but it does the trick...one could argue that when you have multiple leagues (north american and european) the same problems with not feeling intregrated exists. The toolbar isn't the longterm answer, but at least will help in the short-term.

Archi, I agree with you 100 percent. I say I can live with it only because I don't have any other choice. It certainly takes away alot of fun and overall immersion. With that said I don't know how you'll be able to play a european team with the filter the way it is. Going through the free agency is just a mess.

As much as i like having the fictional mode in the game, I think they should of left it out of the first version and spent more time on the UI. But in hindsight, it's easy to say that.

I know i've said it before, but I still don't understand how they don't have perminent draft logs in the game yet. What the Dickens!? (EDIT: lol dickens)

We all know this game has potential, but let's face it, she doesn't have a good first impression.

Also alittle disappointed that it doesn't have the leaderboards for teams like ootp does. I love how ootp tracked every single player that plays for a team and you can sort that entire teams history however you want to view leaders.

[helmespc]

NHL prospect handling also needs to be fixed quite a bit. I have a hard time keeping track as to when my draft rights expire and what is going on with my prospects in general.

I'm in 2015/16 and Seth Jones and Jonathan Druoin were both in free agency(?!)

[dave1927p]

I can't believe I forgot about that one, yes it appears that RFA is broken. A lot of top young players appear in free agency for anyone to sign. That one better be fixed with this coming update. It's unacceptable if it isn't.

Also in historical you can sign anyone you want even if they haven't been drafted. It says "This player has not been drafted" or something along those lines but yet you still offer him a contract and he accepts it.

[nino33]

FHM version 1.0 is out!

JeffR's response when asked about individual player tactics http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/f ... rsion.html

"Something that big will likely be a next-year item. Not that more advanced tactics themselves would be that difficult to add, but it would make more sense to do it as part of a bigger set of upgrades to the game experience, which I want to get a lot less passive for the user. If we just bolted them on to the existing engine, I don't think it'd be much more satisfying than it is now. "

[zbguy]

I don't play this game quite as in-depth as others, but one thing I think everyone who uses the game can agree on is that the player search module is way too bare-bones at the moment. We can't search by things like age, nationality, height, anything like that, so scouting or looking for FAs is a tedious chore.

[archibalduk]

FHM version 1.0 is out!

JeffR's response when asked about individual player tactics http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/f ... rsion.html

"Something that big will likely be a next-year item. Not that more advanced tactics themselves would be that difficult to add, but it would make more sense to do it as part of a bigger set of upgrades to the game experience, which I want to get a lot less passive for the user. If we just bolted them on to the existing engine, I don't think it'd be much more satisfying than it is now. "

Now that's really good news. Anything that makes things less passive from the user's point of view is very welcome indeed - particularly when it comes to tactics.

[dave1927p]

I don't play this game quite as in-depth as others, but one thing I think everyone who uses the game can agree on is that the player search module is way too bare-bones at the moment. We can't search by things like age, nationality, height, anything like that, so scouting or looking for FAs is a tedious chore.

That's probably why I will not be playing as a European team for V1. It will become too frustrating and like you said feel like a chore. I don't want to play a game that feels like doing work that I paid to do...painting the fence is not fun!