General (non-specific) discussion

[Shindigs]

It's a really weird change, based on my old assumptions/those from malhotras training guide this would make it so there are no good conditioning/skating coaches anymore. But then the hints in EHM 1 don't mention motivating/discipline as having any importance for those kinds of coaches, maybe their attributes were still bloated due to it being a former core attribute for phys coaches? But with that not being the case anymore (based on the in-game hints) it was removed from a priority list for coaches? I don't know enough about the DB stuff to form an idea as to why it's happened.

But in the short term I interpret it as motivating no longer being an important attribute for your Phys coaches, more imporant for a head coach if you know your team will struggle to keep morale from bottoming out too bad. But it's weird that something I assume is DB driven (attributes of coaches) gets changed by a new game patch.

Also coaches have randomized attributes now. Before the same coach was essentially identical every single save as far as I could tell, which meant I got the same coaches every single time. Now they seem to have attribute ranges. A good example is Jay Leach who can range from an okay phys coach to an NHL level forward coach depending on how he rolled in your save. I've seen the same coach have at least 3 +/- in a core attribute from one save to another, whereas before they seemed to always be the same. There was nothing in the patch notes about it, but then stuff like that won't necessarily get a post since it wouldn't be pertinent information for most consumers. The same seems to apply to scouts as well, there is one swedish scout that used to have 17/17 in judging who I've now seen with 16/16 and a few other combinations too. So it makes the oh so exhilarating staff setup at the start of games more dynamic. It also seems to have buffed the coaches teams start with. Now you will normally have somewhat competent coaches for your NHL/AHL team at game start, so you can just ignore setting up your own staff if you want to. Before you kind of had to deal with them since they were quite awful.

[nino33]

I'm putting this in the North American thread, but it really applies to the whole database (but there's no thread this year for the whole database)


As we know these are the Riz approved Offensive Role and Defensive Role guidelines we have...
- an Off/Def Role Total of 20-24 makes sense for the "lower level" and/or "average" players
- an Off/Def Role Total of 24-28 makes sense for the very good players
- and Off/Def Role Total of 28-32 makes sense for the superstars


FYI - a quick look I had at TBL 8.2 Power Forwards (answering a question on reddit) makes me think that Offensive/Defensive Role needs some significant editing in TBL 8.2

So looking a little longer...of the 17,680 skaters who have a value (not 0) in both Offensive and Defensive Role

• 2195 have a total of 28+ (over 2000 superstars in the world?); 1093 of these players (50%) have a maximum PA of 100 or less! their Offensive/Defensive Role total should add up to 20-24 as they are all lower level/average players!
• seems "at a glance" that a number of older Finns are extremely overrated (here's a couple examples...Aki Petäjä has 19 Off Role 20 Def Role http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=173189 - Harri Niemi has 18 Off Role 20 Def Role http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=158561)
• looking at the highest totals I see the generational/superstars like McDavid (high 30s - higher than the chart goes!), but I see even more unknown Europeans (most with PAs below 100)
• there are 8747 have a total between 24-28 & 6021 of those (69%) have a maximum PA of 100 or less!

I believe the Offensive/Defensive Role of players needs significant editing, as the data clearly shows the vast majority are severely overrated

[CJ]

I'm putting this in the North American thread, but it really applies to the whole database (but there's no thread this year for the whole database)


As we know these are the Riz approved Offensive Role and Defensive Role guidelines we have...
- an Off/Def Role Total of 20-24 makes sense for the "lower level" and/or "average" players
- an Off/Def Role Total of 24-28 makes sense for the very good players
- and Off/Def Role Total of 28-32 makes sense for the superstars


FYI - a quick look I had at TBL 8.2 Power Forwards (answering a question on reddit) makes me think that Offensive/Defensive Role needs some significant editing in TBL 8.2

So looking a little longer...of the 17,680 skaters who have a value (not 0) in both Offensive and Defensive Role

• 2195 have a total of 28+ (over 2000 superstars in the world?); 1093 of these players (50%) have a maximum PA of 100 or less! their Offensive/Defensive Role total should add up to 20-24 as they are all lower level/average players!
• seems "at a glance" that a number of older Finns are extremely overrated (here's a couple examples...Aki Petäjä has 19 Off Role 20 Def Role http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=173189 - Harri Niemi has 18 Off Role 20 Def Role http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=158561)
• looking at the highest totals I see the generational/superstars like McDavid (high 30s - higher than the chart goes!), but I see even more unknown Europeans (most with PAs below 100)
• there are 8747 have a total between 24-28 & 6021 of those (69%) have a maximum PA of 100 or less!

I believe the Offensive/Defensive Role of players needs significant editing, as the data clearly shows the vast majority are severely overrated

Do you mean we should end it at 32, is that like the top roof for players like McDavid, Crosby, Toews etc.? Everything is fine for me. Just good to get everyone on the same side and decide in this matter.
20-32 is only 12 difference. I think the gap is a bit too tight. But is this how Riz now has built the game (the off/def sum of newgens get these?)? Then we'll run with it.

[nino33]

Do you mean we should end it at 32, is that like the top roof for players like McDavid, Crosby, Toews etc.?

IMO "no" we don't have to end at 32 for generational players and/or the superstars of superstars (and if Riz needs to make a tweak, it'd be very small, as it'd affect very, very few players)

My point is the enormous amount of players that are massively overrated when it comes to Offensive/Defensive Role
IMO no player with a PA of 100 or less should ever be in the upper categories....but even there I think I'd be flexible, maybe a few (but that data shows 50% and 69% are severely overrated & I think this should be less than 5% or something similar, maybe less than 1%)

Depending on how the game uses Offensive/Defensive Role (for the ingame descriptors perhaps?), many issues may connect to this

[Shindigs]

Do you mean we should end it at 32, is that like the top roof for players like McDavid, Crosby, Toews etc.?

IMO "no" we don't have to end at 32 for generational players and/or the superstars of superstars (and if Riz needs to make a tweak, it'd be very small, as it'd affect very, very few players)

My point is the enormous amount of players that are massively overrated when it comes to Offensive/Defensive Role
IMO no player with a PA of 100 or less should ever be in the upper categories....but even there I think I'd be flexible, maybe a few (but that data shows 50% and 69% are severely overrated & I think this should be less than 5% or something similar, maybe less than 1%)

Depending on how the game uses Offensive/Defensive Role (for the ingame descriptors perhaps?), many issues may connect to this

Out of curiosity is August Gunnarsson one of those with a super high total value? Because he's always way the hell too good in europe, he's about as close to cheating as you'll get due to how easy he is to get, and how reliably he puts up near/above 1 PPG.

On another note, staff now have attribute growth/decline just like players. My head coach has gotten really bad as he went into his 60s, while my young (40s) goalie coach has gained multiple attributes over the last 4 years. I could have sworn that didn't happen before 1.2

[nino33]

Out of curiosity is August Gunnarsson one of those with a super high total value? Because he's always way the hell too good in europe, he's about as close to cheating as you'll get due to how easy he is to get, and how reliably he puts up near/above 1 PPG.

Sorry, I don't know...other than the couple examples I gave I wasn't looking at specific players

On another note, staff now have attribute growth/decline just like players.

In all the versions of EHM I've played (05, 07 and the current) Staff Attributes could change (as does their CA)

[CJ]

Out of curiosity is August Gunnarsson one of those with a super high total value? Because he's always way the hell too good in europe, he's about as close to cheating as you'll get due to how easy he is to get, and how reliably he puts up near/above 1 PPG.

On another note, staff now have attribute growth/decline just like players. My head coach has gotten really bad as he went into his 60s, while my young (40s) goalie coach has gained multiple attributes over the last 4 years. I could have sworn that didn't happen before 1.2

August Gunnarsson
Def role: 8
Off role 16
CA: 80
PA: -7
Consistency: Zero (random)

Everything seems pretty normal there.

[Shindigs]

Out of curiosity is August Gunnarsson one of those with a super high total value? Because he's always way the hell too good in europe, he's about as close to cheating as you'll get due to how easy he is to get, and how reliably he puts up near/above 1 PPG.

On another note, staff now have attribute growth/decline just like players. My head coach has gotten really bad as he went into his 60s, while my young (40s) goalie coach has gained multiple attributes over the last 4 years. I could have sworn that didn't happen before 1.2

August Gunnarsson
Def role: 8
Off role 16
CA: 80
PA: -7
Consistency: Zero (random)

Everything seems pretty normal there.

Huh, that is weird. Cause so far he's been a 1PPG player for me in Swe-2 (multiple times), EIHL (1.3-1.4 PPG for 8 seasons in a row) and Nor-1. he starts the game with more attribute total than all but the best players in all leagues of those CA ranges, which is about half the leagues in Europe, and he always grows to be essentially the best player in any of those leagues within 1-2 seasons, while only asking for the salary of an entry level raw prospect until he's in his mid 20s, meaning you can keep him until he retires pretty much. Sure some versions of him are worse than others, but I've never ever had him be below 0.7 PPG in a season. And I've used him around 30 seasons in total if not more, across I'd say 10 or so saves. Very rough figures on the amount of seasons, but the numbers he puts up are just insane. He's essentially the best player in europe for that money, and you can get him cheap right as the game starts. Funny thing though, that 16 8 is very close to what I reverse engineered his roles to be based on attribute ratios and his point production and +/- when I used him in the EIHL as I got 8 seasons of data in a row on him there. First and only time I've had the board confidence update say "The board consider August Gunnarsson to be an invaluable player to the team." or something to that effect. They didn't even do that for McDavid in Edmonton.

Also I never noticed coaches attributes changing before, I only checked very rarely to be fair. But I've never seen such quick change across the board as I have in 3 seasons in my new 1.2.1 save. So maybe it was tweaked at the same time as all coaches lost their motivating, or maybe I just got more old/young coaches that are likely to change this time around? The guys in their 50s are probably much like players in their late 20s, fairly stationary and at their peak.

But come to think of it I did have a 30-something scout I used to check on from year to year back in 1.1.1 and he never increased his judging potential/ablity. In this save every single one of my scouts have gained at least +1 in both since I started the save 4 seasons ago. So I'd be surprised if there wasn't some change made there.

[Shindigs]

Sorry for the double post, but the edit button is missing>.>

Also worth mentioning that even at that 16 8 it makes him a 24 total, which it the bottom end of "very good" for NHL level players. Which seems a bit off for a 19 y/o mid-tier swedish prospect who just got signed to a swe-2 club IRL after having been in the youth team of a Swe-1 team, which would logically mean they felt he wasn't good enough to make it in their first team in swe-1. As much as I love using him in all my saves I don't think it's reasonable for him to have a role total that high, with a CA/PA that "low". Yes he could potentially be a NHL 3rd liner if all the stars align, but so far that hasn't ever happened. And even then I doubt you'd classify an NHL 3rd liner as "very good" in the grand scale of things.*

He's also in that sweetspot where he will become just as good as it's possible for a player to get while still being scouted as 2 star with NHL scouting (I checked several times in my Edmonton save) and since he's already over 18 when the game starts and the AI seems to only sign unsigned prospects if they are at least 3 star potential he will very rarely be drafted at all (I've had it happen once) and will realistically never be signed by whatever team randomly picks him up in round 7 going off the board. That is otherwise one of the biggest issues with playing mid tier european leagues, your good prospects can't be too good or big bad NHL teams swoop in and steal them off you. Having a player who is amazing at that level but who also dodges that is so big.

*This brings up a question. Are the roles relative or are they fixed? As in if a player with 12 Off Role plays in a league where most defenders are also pretty bad, will he be able to score as much as say a 20 off role in a league where all defenders are likely to also have very high def role?(Relative) or a 12 off role is always middle of the line 0.5 PPG at best snorefest, no matter if he's in the NHL or NIHL-2 South?(Fixed) Because if it's the former next to no players in lower leagues should ever have high role values, but the values would need to be able to grow like any other attributes. And in the latter scenario the attribute would never change and you'd need to have high role total players even in the lower brackets or you'd just end up with there being a tonne of goals in the NHL and very few in lower leagues since everyone is just bad at scoring down there. Not to mention you'd never ever get new prospects until the regens and newgens kicked in. Since all lower league players would be forever doomed to being bad no matter how high their CA gets. I can't remember if this was touched upon in nino's huge attribute test?

[nino33]

Also worth mentioning that even at that 16 8 it makes him a 24 total, which it the bottom end of "very good" for NHL level players.

The players were rated last year, the refined guidelines have come about this spring & you seemed to miss my comments about flexibility within the given ranges

As with the practice related discussions we've had, and the number of PMs we exchanged, IMO there's just so much you're not aware of/misinterpreting that it's hard to respond (and responses often seem to cause additional unawareness/misinterpretation).....when I gave you the opportunity to be in the Researchers Forum and you declined that was your chance to better understand things (and what it takes is reading and notetaking...and LOTS of it). I also suggested going through the posts of people like myself, Manimal and CJ (and take notes) if you want to better understand things

You've noted your purpose is to gain (exploit IMO) as much as you can through your systems/understanding, and I think that's a stumbling block to your understanding how the researchers think

IMO a Guide for EHM and editing would be in the 30-50 pages range, maybe more, and would only be truly understandable by a few people who have actively researched for years...if it was needed to be "understandable to everyone" IMO such a Guide could easily be over 100 pages long

And, it's likely that such discussion is not wanted in this thread (my post was connected to the rosters and for the research team, not to open up a broad discussion)

[nino33]

Another issue that affects the whole database (all ages & all countries/leagues).....

There are players in the database who have been given a 20 value for two Positions but in the exported ingame data from the EHM Assistant no player has a 20 in more than one position (one of the 20 values is reduced to 19) - I'm not sure if this will affect things and if it does how much, but FYI the game itself doesn't seem to allow for a 20 rating in more than one Position (and the Player Role doesn't always match the game selected 20 Position)

[Manimal]

Another issue that affects the whole database (all ages & all countries/leagues).....

There are players in the database who have been given a 20 value for two Positions but in the exported ingame data from the EHM Assistant no player has a 20 in more than one position (one of the 20 values is reduced to 19) - I'm not sure if this will affect things and if it does how much, but FYI the game itself doesn't seem to allow for a 20 rating in more than one Position (and the Player Role doesn't always match the game selected 20 Position)

I expected that. Nice to have it proven.
I always changed it when I saw it in the research

[nino33]

FYI - in TBL 8.2 the first "name" in the Forenames list is 1 & there is a Marcel1 name too

[SadSleeper]

Any possibility to get update with Vegas Golden Knoghts before expansion draft in order to start own dynasty now?

[philou21]

Any possibility to get update with Vegas Golden Knoghts before expansion draft in order to start own dynasty now?

It just got released in the download section of EHM1.

[SadSleeper]

Any possibility to get update with Vegas Golden Knoghts before expansion draft in order to start own dynasty now?

It just got released in the download section of EHM1.

how come? can you give me link please?

[archibalduk]

It's here in BKarchitect's blog: http://www.ehmtheblueline.com/forums/vi ... 59#p221257