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Post by **CatchUp** » Tue May 13, 2008 9:32 pm

I second Archi's sentiments above, but to be honest, I'm just as frustrated as batdad.

I think it's really lame that we have to keep adding rules to account for users finding all these loopholes. Great, you want to win. I can appreciate that. There are a lot of people out there for whom winning is absolutely everything - I'm not one of them, but I know you're out there...

I have no sympathy for all you guys complaining about losing players to long term injury either - maybe don't play them a ridiculous amount!?

My honest opinion: if all you new guys (and some old!) to the challenges would spend half as much time finding tactics that work and practice schedules that are effective as you did looking for ways you can skirt the rules, we'd all be a lot better off. You'd actually LEARN something about this game that we're all playing and we mods wouldn't have to deal with this mess, which gets worse and worse as the Challenges go on. Why do you think we have to keep adding rules? There are ALWAYS people out there who have to ruin it for everyone.

jdh79 · Post by **jdh79** » Tue May 13, 2008 9:48 pm

archibalduk wrote:When we (well actually, mainly Batdad and Bruins72) wrote the rules, we didn't envisage such detailed scrutiny. The rules are not so much laws but more like a framework within which to play the Challenges. However, we're having to introduce more and more rules to ensure that people play within the spirit of the Challenge.

I'm not trying to single you out, JDH. Nor is it my intention to pick on you - I just want to explain where Batdad and the rest of the TBL Mod Team are coming from. When the core and homegrown rules were introduced, the basic idea was to ensure that users retained and actively played a certain number of the original roster so that users can't completely overhaul the rosters every Challenge with the same players. However, if a user plays his core players just a minute per game to satisfy the requirements then it's not really in the spirit of the game. Yes, it is sticking to the rules, but it's exploiting them. This isn't what the Challenges are about; they're supposed to be fun. Ok, I don't see anything wrong with not playing a few of your core players many minutes a game if it just works out that way. But that's different from a user going out of their way to intentionally ice core players a few minutes to exploit the rule.

Do you see what I mean? Does it make sense where I'm coming from?

Anyway, the 8 minute rule won't apply this Challenge. However, it will apply from the next Challenge onwards.

I understand where you are coming from, it's just that in my experience with this game, tactics that make sense in real life don't seem to work as well in the game as things that make no sense at all. I also have no problem with following the new rules for the next challenge, or even starting with season 2 of the current challenge if that is something you want to impose. I just didn't think it was reasonably possible to bring everyone to 8 minutes/game average after 32 games of the season are in the books.

In real life, you see some coaches running some forwards 25 minutes per game or so. Running them 30 minutes may not be that far off reality. And I realize that there are definite disadvantages to running this type of system (effect of fatigue, probably late season performance drops, more long term injuries). I have already seen some long term injuries and that is something I am perfectly willing to deal with, because I realize it's a possible consequence of riding my top players hard. If I was running from scratch and running based on the 8 minute rule, I probably would have gone with the NTNB option instead of the standard option, because with the number of injuries you get with high ice time, you need some flexibility to add more players (which is why I have added Chris Clark, Halpern and Hunter).

Post by **batdad** » Tue May 13, 2008 10:03 pm

Sorry...but tactics I would use as a coach in real life work fine in the game for me.

And as for being reasonable...you ask the rule makers to be reasonable, but your attitude towards this challenge has been completely unreasonable. Go read your posts about playing Doan 60 minutes again. Get real man. Do what you want with your challenge.

As for that last paragraph. Jesus--You are slow in the head. Real slow bud. AND FACTUALLY INCORRECT.

Here is the link to 2006-07 ice time stats

You will notice: the numbers are weak in your position. Very weak.

Occasionally a forward gets 25 minutes. Not EVERY GAME! Tampa is the exception. In the playoffs it happens, but maybe it happens 5-10 times per season. And it also happens that that forward will play 15 minutes a game about that much. So don't give me your BS on this. Cause that is what it is. 25 minute games for forwards are more the exception than the rule. Save playoffs and OT games etc.

Running them 30 minutes is that far off reality...in fact it is basically 30% off reality...cause forwards mostly play 20 minutes. It may happen 2-3 times per season per team. So you are way off base.

Do what you are asked to do with the challenges. You want to look for loopholes go somewhere else. I am sick of this Adam Oates. Pardon my french...but this Adam Oates sucks

Post by **batdad** » Tue May 13, 2008 10:08 pm

Oh and just to add...2 of the top 10 suffered significant injuries this season in real life...(B'Amour,Horcoff) so there ya go. reality.

jdh79 · Post by **jdh79** » Tue May 13, 2008 10:12 pm

So maybe my coaching and forward usage style mirrors Tortorella. I have changed my tactics and am now running all 4 lines the first period, and switching to a shortened bench the last two periods if I am behind or the game is close. If I am blowing the other team out, I leave it at all 4 lines. This is reducing my average ice time for the top line to around 28 minutes, which is only 4 minutes different from how Tampa actually uses their top forwards.

jdh79 · Post by **jdh79** » Tue May 13, 2008 10:16 pm

BTW, I now have Jovanovski, York, Reinprecht, Chris Clark and Halpern all injured. So, it isn't like I am not paying the price; but I am willing to pay it.

Post by **batdad** » Tue May 13, 2008 10:16 pm

And people wonder why I am backing out of running challenges. Sheesh.

Some people in this world...

Post by **CatchUp** » Tue May 13, 2008 10:34 pm

jdh79 wrote:BTW, I now have Jovanovski, York, Reinprecht, Chris Clark and Halpern all injured. So, it isn't like I am not paying the price; but I am willing to pay it.

This is maybe the dumbest thing I have ever read on this board.

You're willing to have your top line players injured so you won't have to play your bottom line players.

Who comes in to play in place of your top line guys? Your bottom line guys? Oh wait, that's what you're trying to avoid in the first place.

I'm sorry dude, but that is just absolutely, mind-numbingly dumb.

jdh79 · Post by **jdh79** » Tue May 13, 2008 10:38 pm

CatchUp wrote:
jdh79 wrote:BTW, I now have Jovanovski, York, Reinprecht, Chris Clark and Halpern all injured. So, it isn't like I am not paying the price; but I am willing to pay it.
This is maybe the dumbest thing I have ever read on this board.

You're willing to have your top line players injured so you won't have to play your bottom line players.

Who comes in to play in place of your top line guys? Your bottom line guys? Oh wait, that's what you're trying to avoid in the first place.

I'm sorry dude, but that is just absolutely, mind-numbingly dumb.

I am willing to give it a try. My feeling is getting my top guys at 28 mins/game 75% of the time is probably better than playing them 18 minutes 90% of the time (because you will still have injuries regardless). Plus, if it's so mind numbingly dumb and such a bad strategy, why is everyone so up in arms that I am trying this? If you know it won't work you should be happy that I am one more person you can beat.

Post by **batdad** » Tue May 13, 2008 11:26 pm

That is funny.

Post by **Shadd666** » Wed May 14, 2008 2:42 pm

We don't mind to beat you, jdh... We don't mind either if you beat us... We just want a challenge played realistically (ie without exploiting the various weaknesses of the AI that we all know). It seems you can't or don't want to understand that.

So for you, 28 minutes for a forward is reasonnable? Did you even had a look at the link batdad provided?

Only 31 forwards (out of thousands!) played over 20 minutes per game. Out of them, only 18 were over 21 minutes, 8 over 22 minutes, 3 over 23 minutes, and just one over 24 minutes (Martin St. Louis, 24:17 ATOI). Tortorella is known to play his top line A LOT compared to what's used to be, and as a result he has the only guy over 24 minutes.

Let's do some quick maths: 30 teams x 12 forwards = 360 forwards (without counting the backups, call-ups, etc). Out of those 360, just one of them plays 24 minutes. 1/360=0,0028% !!!

This percentage speaks by itself: it's nearly a miracle that a forward plays 24 minutes! And you gently try to sell us that playing 28, or 30 minutes finally isn't that high and pretty realistic? Who's gonna buy it? Noone who has a minimum of common sense...

Maybe you wasn't realising how out of purpose your agruments were. That's why we gave you facts. Now let's hope you can see how wrong you were and be back on track for something more realistic in your challenge style of play

Taloncarde · Post by **Taloncarde** » Wed May 14, 2008 3:28 pm

Coming from someone who is inexperienced in the challenges, I dislike the idea of regulating ice time. I understand why you guys are upset with people trying to fine comb through the rules, and defeating the purposes of the challenge of course.

Maybe one option would be to just require ice time for players in the "core"/HG players to keep people from getting their GP to the minimum required, like A players 15 ATOI, B players 12, C players/HG 8? (For forwards obviously, D men would be a slightly higher scale, like, 20, 15, 10, I guess)

Or just maybe not setting a "hard" limit either top or bottom on ice time, and just adding a clause that the mods are able to use discretion on penaltys regarding "unrealistic player usage." I know you guys know the game well enough to be able to say when players are abusing ice time, and would trust your judgement

Or, apply the penalties for not having core/hg players meeting their required games even if they have an injury but it's due to overplaying them. IE if I have to play player X for 70 games, but am requesting an exemption from that due to injury, yet they were played for 30 minutes a game, then they still get the penalty for not meeting games played.

Anyways, just some thoughts because I know you guys running the challenge hate having to come up with new rules, and I know the more "work" and checking up you have to do ruins the fun for those who are giving us their time and effort to run the challenge.

No matter what, you guys do a great job of making this game still fun after all this time with new and innovative ways to try and play the game, and I hope that you keep it up

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Wed May 14, 2008 3:49 pm

Nice input, Taloncarde!

I think if there were some sort of ice time requirement, it would (or should) apply to core players. I think it only makes sense. Like you, I also dislike regulating ice time. We've tried to keep things open and free in the past but we've found we've had to make up more and more rules, regulating more and more in the challenge, to keep things interesting and also to keep a few players from exploiting the rules. The more flexibility we try to give people, the more these few will try to use that to their advantage.

The penalties for not meeting requirements due to long term injuries is interesting though. That might help curb over-playing players but it also punishes folks who just have some bad luck. What do other people think?

Taloncarde · Post by **Taloncarde** » Wed May 14, 2008 4:05 pm

On the injury front, I realize there will be just plain bad luck, and I think it would still require some discretion from the "Challenge masters" to use a term. If a player has normal ice time, then they are "exempted" from the games played, but if it looks like they are being abnormally used, then they are not exempted from meeting games played requirement.

Anyways, I know it's frustrating for you guys too, that's why I wanted to toss out some other ideas, and just to let you know that even as someone who has yet to participate (I'm still trying to find time to set my team up for 10!) that I appreciate everything that goes into this. Even when i've not played in challenges I always enjoy reading what people are trying and how things work out.

I'm also not opposed, again at your discretion, to the "challenge masters" just using judgement and removing people that just seem to be trying to exploit and mine the rules for their advantage so that you guys can still enjoy running these and those who enjoy playing them are all still having fun

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Wed May 14, 2008 4:12 pm

Taloncarde wrote: I'm also not opposed, again at your discretion, to the "challenge masters" just using judgement and removing people that just seem to be trying to exploit and mine the rules for their advantage so that you guys can still enjoy running these and those who enjoy playing them are all still having fun

That's really only done in extreme cases. In general we'd really prefer to let everyone play and have fun.

jdh79 · Post by **jdh79** » Wed May 14, 2008 8:49 pm

I have just posted my recording stats for games 21-40. I have made some changes to address the ice time concerns, and I now have everyone up to I think 4 minutes of average ice time. I will commit to after season one when I am able to make some offseason roster moves and realign to 7 core instead of 10 to get to around 8 minutes/player.

I realize that noone really cares what I have to say at this point, but just a suggestion about the potential rule change. If the concern is preventing people from using ice time overloading, wouldn't it be more effective to set a maximum ATOI at something like 25-26 minutes for forwards and 30 minutes for defensemen? And combine that with having the 8 minute requirement for core players. I find that even if I run at normal tactics for a game, I will often have 4th line players that don't hit 8 minutes, especially if they don't play on special teams.

Post by **archibalduk** » Wed May 14, 2008 9:08 pm

I totally agree with you Talconcarde - it'd be best to have some sort of flexibility as I don't see the harm in someone who happens by coincidence to have a player who is playing a small amount of time on ice (e.g. those players who just play on the fourth line and not in any of the special teams). The difficulty with simply giving the Admins/Mods discretion on a case-by-case basis is that users will feel victimised if a decision goes against them. Having it written down makes this less likely. It's going to be a tough line to draw but I think some sort of discretion is definitely worth consideration.

Having more screens/items for Mods to check really is undesirable - partly because we already put a hell of a lot of work into checking the screens and adding the stats, and partly because it seems a shame to add rules which really ought to be unnecessary.

Post by **Shadd666** » Thu May 15, 2008 12:37 am

jdh79 wrote:I realize that noone really cares what I have to say at this point

All depends on what you're saying

jdh79 wrote:If the concern is preventing people from using ice time overloading, wouldn't it be more effective to set a maximum ATOI at something like 25-26 minutes for forwards and 30 minutes for defensemen? And combine that with having the 8 minute requirement for core players. I find that even if I run at normal tactics for a game, I will often have 4th line players that don't hit 8 minutes, especially if they don't play on special teams.

That should be considered... or not... depends on what will be decided regarding this rule for the next challenge. And the 8 minutes mentionned isn't written in stone yet. It will maybe be 6, or 5, or 10, or whatever else. We'll maybe end with a mix (ie a max and a min). Or not. The discussion will be opened later on when we'll look at the next challenge and the rule changes that would then be needed.

But in fact, ideally, this rule should simply just not exist. If noone was looking to exploit the rules, we shouldn't have to make new rules at each and every single challenge. In fact, most of the rules would be useless if everyone was playing realistically. And i'm not pointing at you specifically by saying this, as we had many other issues in the past, and will probably (unfortunately) have other issues in the future.

Challenges should ideally be just made of gentlemen agreements. But since there are always some non-gentlemen joining in, we're forced to make more and more rules. More rules means more work to elaborate, discuss, prepare, test, and finally write the rules. Then comes the extra work for enforcing the rules. Well, i say "extra work", but it should be "extra pain", as noone is paid for that and it's all make on free time. And making rules is not the funniest part of the challenges, believe me! Then, for users, more rules means more time to read, understand, and learn the rules. And often some back-and-forth between the game and the rules to be sure you're not doing something wrong, which means slightly less time to effectively play the game.

All of this just because some people don't get it. They don't understand that the challenges are just made for fun!!! Sure, everyone wants to do their best, and possibly win. But exploiting loopholes (or worse, cheating!) to win... the TBL challenge?

Come on, guys! There is no pride out of it, no glory, no luxury car to win, no holidays offered, no groupies, nothing! It's all about having fun together, with a little bit of competition to spice things up. Nothing more, nothing less. So cheaters and loophole exploiters are just killing everyone else's fun. Once again, this is not directed specifically at you, but openly said to anyone.

I hope that, someday, everyone will finally manage to get it!

[/calm rant]

jdh79 · Post by **jdh79** » Thu May 15, 2008 1:20 am

Are you allowed to enter the same challenge multiple times? Like, say I am able to complete 5-6 seasons with the regular rules well ahead of the deadline, am I allowed to enter again, start a new game using NTNB?

kuulapaa · Post by **kuulapaa** » Thu May 15, 2008 1:40 am

jdh79 wrote:Are you allowed to enter the same challenge multiple times? Like, say I am able to complete 5-6 seasons with the regular rules well ahead of the deadline, am I allowed to enter again, start a new game using NTNB?

What in earth would be the point of doing this? Are you in desperate need of Challenge points? Where is the place they count in every day life?

If I ever would be in that kind of situation, I would play the challenge again by my own.

Post by **Shadd666** » Thu May 15, 2008 1:05 pm

jdh79 wrote:Are you allowed to enter the same challenge multiple times? Like, say I am able to complete 5-6 seasons with the regular rules well ahead of the deadline, am I allowed to enter again, start a new game using NTNB?

No.

Firstly, there are some people compiling the datas provided by every users, chacking stats and screenshots, calculating points, etc, and i don't think they'll enjoy to see that the time they spent on their free time to check your stats and screenies was some lost time and that they have to do it again.

Then if we allow someone to restart just because he wants to play differently, we should end up with other users restarting, or people playing one way, then the other, to finally go back to the first. Or we should have people playing both the basic rules and NTNB. You can easily see the mess it would be, and we clearly don't want that, and therefore won't allow that.

Plus, the challenges are just over a 4 months period. If you want to test the NTNB, 4 months (well, a bit less actually) is not that a long time to wait before going NTNB in the next challenge. Or if your level of patience gives a good definition of what the absolute zero is, you can start a NTNB game on your own. No prob with that. But no way it counts in this challenge. Only your actual game counts.

Furthermore, nothing prevents you from playing the NTNB style for now on. You won't be counted as a NTNB player (since you didn't start this way), so you would still have to follow the basic rules (ie with the TBL budget, etc). But other than that, nothing prevents you to change your playing style for now on, as long as you stay within the rules AND within the spirit of the challenge (ie no 30 minutes of icetime for Doan, etc).

Now let's stop a few moments... Imagine you're looking for a job... Someone gives you the opportunity to make choice between two jobs (believe me, there are very few chances you see that kind of opportunities!

)... After a mature reflection, you select the one you are more willing to take and get that job. And you come back to your boss a few months later, saying "hem... sorry boss, but finally i think that i wanted the other job"... I let you imagine the boss reaction...

jdh79 · Post by **jdh79** » Thu May 15, 2008 7:15 pm

Shadd666 wrote:
jdh79 wrote:Are you allowed to enter the same challenge multiple times? Like, say I am able to complete 5-6 seasons with the regular rules well ahead of the deadline, am I allowed to enter again, start a new game using NTNB?
No.

Firstly, there are some people compiling the datas provided by every users, chacking stats and screenshots, calculating points, etc, and i don't think they'll enjoy to see that the time they spent on their free time to check your stats and screenies was some lost time and that they have to do it again.

Then if we allow someone to restart just because he wants to play differently, we should end up with other users restarting, or people playing one way, then the other, to finally go back to the first. Or we should have people playing both the basic rules and NTNB. You can easily see the mess it would be, and we clearly don't want that, and therefore won't allow that.

Plus, the challenges are just over a 4 months period. If you want to test the NTNB, 4 months (well, a bit less actually) is not that a long time to wait before going NTNB in the next challenge. Or if your level of patience gives a good definition of what the absolute zero is, you can start a NTNB game on your own. No prob with that. But no way it counts in this challenge. Only your actual game counts.

Furthermore, nothing prevents you from playing the NTNB style for now on. You won't be counted as a NTNB player (since you didn't start this way), so you would still have to follow the basic rules (ie with the TBL budget, etc). But other than that, nothing prevents you to change your playing style for now on, as long as you stay within the rules AND within the spirit of the challenge (ie no 30 minutes of icetime for Doan, etc).

Now let's stop a few moments... Imagine you're looking for a job... Someone gives you the opportunity to make choice between two jobs (believe me, there are very few chances you see that kind of opportunities! )... After a mature reflection, you select the one you are more willing to take and get that job. And you come back to your boss a few months later, saying "hem... sorry boss, but finally i think that i wanted the other job"... I let you imagine the boss reaction...

No problem, I will just keep playing with my current game then once I get through 4 or so seasons if there's time to spare, will try NTNB on my own. I have Doan's average ice time down to around 26 minutes as of my 60 game mark (haven't posted it yet).

I thought I read posted that the next challenge is going to be non-NHL? How would that work with NTNB rules?

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Thu May 15, 2008 7:26 pm

We're going to have a poll before the next challenge. The poll will have both NHL and non-NHL options in it.

eric1985 · Post by **eric1985** » Sun May 18, 2008 6:09 am

I'm trying to gain entry to the challenge but i cant figure out how......

Taloncarde · Post by **Taloncarde** » Sun May 18, 2008 8:06 am

eric1985 wrote:I'm trying to gain entry to the challenge but i cant figure out how......

I see this is your first post, welcome. First, if you look at the top when you are in the challenge forum there is a nice large menu with links to all the threads with the rules in them. The very first one, on the left side

http://www.ehmtheblueline.com/forums/vi ... php?t=3001

includes how to enter the challenge. Read all the rules and links and good luck!

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