Official 13-14 NHL Regular Season Thread

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typicaljs
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Re: Official 13-14 NHL Regular Season Thread

Post by typicaljs »

Kopi wrote:I see Kopitar finaly catch his form! Will be great addition to our Olympic squad! :thup:
I'm really excited to watch Kopitar play in the Olympics. It will be a ton of fun to watch him try to singlehandedly beat entire countries (no disrespect to other Slovenians'...but let's be honest here)

My only concern is if he's the main offensive threat, I really don't want to see him get too crazy and get himself hurt. I'd rather watch that guy lift another cup than win a gold medal :D
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Re: Official 13-14 NHL Regular Season Thread

Post by Kopi »

Hehehe dont u worry...we have few guys capable playing on high level and for those who dont know Kopi`s father is also a HC of national team.
For us, Slovenians, this is a holiday that we can participate on Oyimpics. If we can get a win or draw will be big time.
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Re: Official 13-14 NHL Regular Season Thread

Post by batdad »

FInally a media member in Vancouver is realizing the CAnucks are not fast. They have never been exactly fast...not even in 2011. But...they were not as slow as molasses like they are now. What chafes me though Mr Tony Gallagher...is that you got it part right only. You have still not realized that Mr Edler, Mr Garrison, Mr Bieksa, Mr Tanev and Mr Hamhuis are not exactly the most mobile group of defense in the world. Sure Kevin can get going with short choppy strides in a straight line, and Hamhuis is at least partly able to move to the left and right.

But...Edler and Garrison in particular...have no clue what moving laterally is. They are both HORRIBLE when they have to change direction. This idea of Edler being a top 2 dman.....wow....are you guys really that stupid? He is not even close to that as he CANNOT move in different directions. And this idea that Garrison should be on the PP all the time for his shot? You have to be able to move your feet to get the shot past the other team.

If I were to grade dmen in Vancouver and their skating--mobility...

Hamhuis B Skating, B mobility B- acceleration
Bieksa B- Skating, B mobility B Acceleration
Edler B skating, C+ mobility C+ acceleration
Tanev B skating B- mobility, B- acceleration
Stanton B- skating, B- mobility C acceleration
Garrison C+ skating, C mobility C acceleration
Alberts D skating D mobility, F acceleration
weber B skating, B mobility B acceleration
Corrado B skating, B- mobility, B- acceleration

Look at the last two, compare to rest of team. Those last two are not on the team.

So figure it out...the team is slow. Sedins slow, Burrows quick but lost a step. Higgins average, Kesler lost a step Santorelli okay, Hansen good, rest of team except Weise are slugs. Kassian is one of the fastest forwards...that tells you something.
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Re: Official 13-14 NHL Regular Season Thread

Post by MWE »

You forgot Sestito ;)
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Re: Official 13-14 NHL Regular Season Thread

Post by batdad »

No I did not. :-D
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Re: Official 13-14 NHL Regular Season Thread

Post by CJ »

Would be cool to see those ratings of all teams. :-) (Andrew Alberts looks to be good :-D ) Aren't Canucks a pretty old team also (Kassian only young player that comes to my mind)? Older = slower
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Re: Official 13-14 NHL Regular Season Thread

Post by CeeBee »

Inspite of what Batdad says the Canucks really are not that slow or imobile. Their big problem is that they can't put the puck in the ocean let alone the net. They are out shooting and out chancing the opposition in most games as well having a pretty good advantage in offensive zone time. L.A. and Florida were 2 recent games where they got outplayed badly but that happens to every team on some nights. As for speedy players, Santorelli, Burrows, Hansen, Higgins and Kassian are pretty fast plus Tostit...ahem Sestito, Richardson and Weise are at least average. Sedins really are not slow either, they just like to play a different game but it's not like they are pylons. On D I'd say Tanev, Bieksa and Stanton are the best skaters and the rest at least ok. Defence and goaltending have not been the problem. Scoring and the powerplay have. The above is my subjective opinion. I have watched most of every Canuck game and try to pay attention to whats being said in the media. The NHL is extremely competitive and especially the west and IMO the Canucks, along with quite a few other teams are on the cusp of being a good solid team or being in line for a lottery pick. Certainly not Cup contenders at this point but neither were the Kings for most of the year 2 seasons ago.
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Re: Official 13-14 NHL Regular Season Thread

Post by batdad »

They cannot put the puck in the net because they are too slow. They take too long to get shots off...still get some off, but too late. And many many of the shots are from naff scoring positions because they cannot get to the actual scoring zones fast enough. How many times have you seen Daniel shoot from side wall. Two years ago, he gets in to slot for that shot. Same for Kesler. Shots from outside...yes some by design...but then...not getting to the rebounds. Higgins, Kesler, Burrows, Sedin Sedin have all been out moved to rebounds way too many times.
Edler, Garrison, Bieksa and Hamhuis--too many scoring chances and shot chances where they cannot get the puck through.

When Santorelli and Higgins are receiving 2nd line minutes--you are not a good enough team. Plain and simple. Look how the Nucks 2nd line compares to the top teams in the west. Not even close. Higgins is a great third line guy, Santorelli is a good third line guy. Both are getting 2nd line minutes--why? Because they can actually skate a bit. Unlike most of the team.

They are too slow...and mainly I was pointing out the backend. They are not good enough for the roles they have to play on this team. Edler is not a 1 and maybe not even a 2. Hamhuis is at best a 2 (and only an okay one at that as offensive ability is not there. Bieksa is a 4 at best. Tanev is a decent 6, but mr calm and patient is now turning into Mr Blown up on the wall and in the corner and cough up the puck. He is not quick enough...it is not that he is patient...he is not quick. Stanton is a good #6 dman, and an average 5...any more than that and it is trouble. They just do not move the puck well enough because they do not skate wel enough.

Garrison....at best a #4 and his skating is freaking horrible.

I do not judge the Nucks against the East...they suck out there. Only against the west, and quite frankly....they as I said awhile back will not make the playoffs.

They cannot score as they are not quick enough, and that is that.
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Re: Official 13-14 NHL Regular Season Thread

Post by CeeBee »

As a whole the d-men are ok but they are pretty much all 3-5's.... I'd say Bieksa maybe is the only 2 and Tanev might be a 2 someday. They certainly do not have a go to # 1 dman at this point in time. Not sure if the lack of scoring is being slow though.... maybe bad hands, snakebitten, turning the stick to sawdust, or some such thing may be the problem :-D
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Re: Official 13-14 NHL Regular Season Thread

Post by batdad »

It may be...but I am yet to see the things we used to see..

Kesler blowing past guys and driving to the net.
Burrows beating out players from the other team to the puck on a regular basis.

Explosive speed and breaks for Kesler, Burrows, Hansen (even though he never finishes).

And then...there is Booth. Talk about a loss of speed...

Even Daniel and Henrik who have never been fast have looked as slow as molasses. God...Kassian and Higgins may be the fastest two guys on the ice for this team right now.
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Re: Official 13-14 NHL Regular Season Thread

Post by CeeBee »

depressing, innit :cry: even if you're not a canuck fan. :-D
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Re: Official 13-14 NHL Regular Season Thread

Post by batdad »

Nah it is not that depressing for me...it is part of the game..guys slow down re injury and age. I like KEsler a ton as a player (just wish his personality was not so grating that it took so much away from his ability as a player) and it is no fun to see that decline re injury. I think it has...but he could just be holding back as cannot play that balls out style all the time and be healthy. But the Nucks need to see it soon or they will not have playoffs to play in.


Kassian needs to grow up. He is the same age as Bert when Bert started to play the game a little....
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Re: Official 13-14 NHL Regular Season Thread

Post by Primis »

To be honest, I think the entire league is lacking in the first-pairing d-men dept. at the moment. It's one of the reasons the trade market is so messed-up: EVERYONE wants a top pairing d-man, but there really aren't any to be had. And if you look at this last offseason and the one coming up yet, there are no good FA d-men out there.

And the Bogosians, Pietrangelos, Doughtys, Johnsons, etc, still aren't quite there yet either (if they ever will be). You have a team like BUF with a letdown like Tyler Myers.

One of the strengths of the West over recent years has been IMO that the good Western teams have 2 legit top pairing guys, the Eastern teams often can afford only one because of the salary they have wrapped up in superstar forwards. But while a CHI still has theirs and a STL certainly has a deep blueline... many of the rest have fallen off a bit IMHO.

I just don't know. It's weird. Maybe it's the obsession teams have with BIG d-men again/still. It's gotten harder again for the Torey Krugs to get through, and skating seems to be an afterthought for team considering d-men kinda' like how it was before the first lockout in the pre-Cap era.
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Re: Official 13-14 NHL Regular Season Thread

Post by CeeBee »

You're right, Primus. There is a lack of true #1 carry a team Lidstrom, Orr, Pronger type dmen. Most are probably 1A's or 2's which is fine. I do think the Canucks have 3 pretty good pairings and defence is really not their problem. They have been notorios slow starters as a team for quite a few years and I'm expecting when the scoring starts to come they will go on a run. If it doesnt come then Batdad is right and they will be getting a lottery pick but thats the way it goes. And Batdad, about the Kassian thing.... absolutely no consistency at all. Looks like the second coming of Bertuzzi one game and the for the next ten games he's Sandlak. frustrating, yes..... surprising, no, as many young players of that type take time to develop.
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Re: Official 13-14 NHL Regular Season Thread

Post by Primis »

CeeBee wrote:You're right, Primus. There is a lack of true #1 carry a team Lidstrom, Orr, Pronger type dmen. Most are probably 1A's or 2's which is fine.
I wonder why that is, honestly. Are too many of them being rushed young now? Is there too much emphasis on offense for many of them now that it keeps them from being more-effective in their own end?

It's odd. Maybe we're just 3 or 4 years form having a BUNCH of them around the league again, and it's a down cycle. But it certainly does seem to be a "down" time for d-men, with waaaaayyyy too many teams using 2nd pairing-type guys on their top pairings.


In Detroit news... Gustav Nyquist score twice in his season debut last night (and for those wondering no, it wasn't a fluke. He was the best player on the ice for either team IMHO, including Datsyuk and Zetterberg). That CAN'T have been how Babcock and Holland were hoping it'd go. If Nyquist plays one more game, he can't be sent back down without clearing waivers. And yet while DeKeyser is on LTIR it's okay, it forces the cap and roster crunch even more now.

It's absolutely unbelievable how signing one washed-up vet has just crippled this team. They have yet to find a way to make any of this work, and there's no trade market whatsoever and probably won't be with so many teams up against the cap.
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Re: Official 13-14 NHL Regular Season Thread

Post by CJ »

batdad wrote:It may be...but I am yet to see the things we used to see..

Kesler blowing past guys and driving to the net.
Burrows beating out players from the other team to the puck on a regular basis.
Are you forgetting who their head coach is? :-D That might be a reason...
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Re: Official 13-14 NHL Regular Season Thread

Post by batdad »

Maybe that is true Primis. When I have a few minutes I will run thru the teams and see. I bet coaching had a lot to do with why top level d men are not developing. Coaches are so worried about mistakes they do not allow the young d men to develop the skills. Just push that puck up that wall and get it out. I hear it all the time.
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Re: Official 13-14 NHL Regular Season Thread

Post by Primis »

batdad wrote:Maybe that is true Primis. When I have a few minutes I will run thru the teams and see. I bet coaching had a lot to do with why top level d men are not developing. Coaches are so worried about mistakes they do not allow the young d men to develop the skills. Just push that puck up that wall and get it out. I hear it all the time.
It reminds me of when Jack Johnson was playing at Michigan and Red Berenson played him at "rover", and basically gave him the green light to do whatever he wanted in either end.

Fast forward a few years and Lombardi in LA mentions this in an interview about how this maybe hurt Johnson's development and Michigan fans came out of the woodwork trying to defend it, because MICHIGAN OMG! MUST DEFEND! But he was absolutely right: Berenson did what was maybe best for him and his program at the time and also for Johnson's numbers, but not what was best for the player to develop, and it hurt Johnson long-term. It developed some baaaaaaad habits he still hasn't completely let go of even. Also keep in mind: Lombardi at the time had drafted his share of guys coming out of Michigan's program. I don't believe he has drafted a single player out of U. of Michigan since.

I think this happens a lot nowadays: a junior or college coach, or even an AHL coach, uses a guy a certain way to maximize his impact with little regard to that player's development. And it stunts them. It happens in the NHL too I guess, though it's high profile and everyone can see if a coach or team is ruining a promising kid. The lower level coaches are trying to save their own jobs first and foremost, and advance their careers. If a player develops out of that, great. If not, they'll have moved on by then anyways.
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Re: Official 13-14 NHL Regular Season Thread

Post by typicaljs »

Honestly, I'm not so sure the U of M really affected him that much. As a huge kings fan and former JMFJ-fan (I even have one of the "kill Jack Kill" shirts LGK.com put together) I really think his issue once he got to the pro's have all been mental. The guy just doesn't think the game well enough to be a dominant top pairing defenseman in the NHL. He thought the game well enough and was so much more skilled than every other player in college that was dominant in the NCAA. He is supremely skilled, fast, and strong...but the mental part of his game (the part that makes Doughty so dominant) is the area where he is lacking. He just gets too confused, makes the wrong reads, misses assignments too often. At first, you would attribute these defensive lapses to needing experience and time, after a few years it became clear that the issue was in his head and with his brain more than anything else. The guy is just the equivalent of a dumb jock in a sport that requires greater mental prowess than I believe Jack Johnson has. Just my two cents based on being a huge fanboy and following his early career very closely, thinking he was going to be a dominant force in the NHL for 5+ seasons before the carter trade. THe year they traded him was when I finally accepted he wasn't going to develop enough mentally to be the player we all thought he would be. Also, he always played much better when Doughty was out and he was clearly "the man" on the team or the #1 dman.

So in summary, I really don't believe his time at the U of M really hindered or helped his development much at all...I just don't believe he has the mental tools available to become that dominant top pairing dman everyone thought he was going to be when he was drafted.
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Re: Official 13-14 NHL Regular Season Thread

Post by batdad »

But Jack Johnston cannot be stupid...he ...he...went to University. :-D

In all seriousness though...coaches have to know what they have and they have to be able to use the tools the players have. So Johnson in Uni was extremely big, quick for his size and skilled. But.....he was not smart. Berenson sees that and gives him the green light to go do basically whatever he wants. The mistake in developing JJ here is NOT that he was allowed to do what ever he wanted, but that Berenson did not subtly teach the other parts of the game that were lacking. JJ did not learn how to play positionally, and how to make good solid decisions with the puck...

That was the mistake. And noone in the NHL has the patience as a coach to teach those things. So JJ going straight to the show because of his skill, size and speed is what actually killed him. And his stubborn refusal to learn the things he needs to to become successful.

Not sure JJ is the best example of where I was going as he is almost the opposite. He is the offense is gifted, but you can teach D.....gone wrong example. He is not the offensive dman who had his gifts taken away and not allowed to use them, because the coach does not want him making mistakes, getting caught etc.

A good example of that type of dman who has a ton of skill, skating etc and was dumbed down into an average two way defenseman....instead of a stud offensively who played hard in his own zone and gradually got better at that part of the game would be....

Hmm...trying to think....Chris Phillips, or what Montreal is doing with PK SUbban. Refusing to allow the offense and forcing him to chip up the wall etc....trying to make a real skilled dman into a plumber. Square peg round hole type stuff.

Noone ever tried to discourage JJ offensively...he was always allowed that part of his game. Many many very skilled, strong and FAST dmen are not allowed to play that way by their coaches. Coach will always tell them.....you can get offensive AFTER you learn the defensive side of the game. BUT....that defensive learning becomes a never ending prophecy. Ok...now you made a good solid corner play...now we need to learn this part of playting in your own zone. Almost like they have to give permission for the player to do anything skilled individually.

The learn how to play in your own end speech. Hear it all the time. Stay home, do the right thing...once you show that then you can be more up ice. It never (or rarely) happens....and rarely does that offensive ability ever come back.

Trying to think of a real good example right now....but mind is just blown. Green in Washington is one but some of that is injury. Schultz in Edmonton is going to become one of those maybe, Wideman in Calgary (from other cities), Franson in Toronto, Gardiner right now in Toronto, Fowler in Anaheim (Although that is seemingly ending with Nierdermeyer there),

These are the type of guys that have a chance to do it all....but they are reined in and never let out to play. WIdeman maybe not.
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Re: Official 13-14 NHL Regular Season Thread

Post by Primis »

I watched Jack Johnson in college a lot. I live in Michigan, we get (then) CCHA games on FoxSports Detroit. I just think he thinks offense first, and only offense sometimes. And Berenson never reined him in, he just let him run wild. I think it's very fair to criticize Berenson for it. He got away with it still in the NCAA. But he never had to fight his way through the AHL.
A good example of that type of dman who has a ton of skill, skating etc and was dumbed down into an average two way defenseman....instead of a stud offensively who played hard in his own zone and gradually got better at that part of the game would be....
Brad Stuart. He came into the league expected to be a #1 offensive d-man, and instead he's turned himself into a hard-hitting, dependable defenseman who can chip in some on offense. But it was rough getting there for him.


I'll give you the anti-Jack Johnson: Jonathan Ericsson. Not many people realize that the season before he was drafted, he was playing as a center in Sweden. According to Wikipedia (I looked up to get details right) he was playing center as recently as 2001-02 for his junior team there. Hakan Andersson allegedly caught him at an odd game where he was forced into temporary defensive duty due to roster issues, and after seeing him play he talked the team into keeping him there, then the Wings drafted him in June 2002 as a defenseman, the very last pick of the draft.

He then spent from 02-03 to 05-06 in Sweden learning at D. In 06-07 he was brought over to the AHL and in I think 07-08 was an AHL All-Star. He had small stints with DET between 07-09 and DET fans were really excited about him. And then 09-10 happened and he STUNK. And he spent the next couple years being considered by many as a wasted expirement. I've even personally really disliked him and wished he'd been gone many a time. DET even skated him at 4th line forward once or twice due to injuries.

Sometime last year though, in the shortened season, things finally began to come together for him. At the moment he's a legit 2nd pairing d-man in the NHL IMHO. He unfortunately is having to play top pairing duty with Nik Kronwall and that's probably asking a bit too much of him.

The point of this is though that a big center can be converted into an effective NHL defense-first defenseman fairly late in his development. And yet a guy like JJ, who'd always been a defenseman, just can't corral in his own offensive desires and mindset... and to be honest never had anyone slap him around a bit and tell him he needed to. And not it's probably too late. For all the offensive glory people remember Paul Coffey for, Coffey was HORRENDOUS in his own zone, embarrassingly so. Coffey'd get eaten alive in today's game. Orr probably would too, if we're being honest.

One of the reasons Danny DeKeyser was so attractive to the Red Wings is that he skates well and he plays well first in his own zone. They want that good first pass from him and anything else is bonus. One of the reasons Brendan Smith is such a disaster in DET is his offensive decisions are poor, and often at the expense of his defensive responsibilities. He's still kinda' a hot dog, and everyone knows it. And to be honest, it doesn't look like the Wings will be able to reprogram/deprogram of it him now either. I literally don't think he has the capability in him to adjust at this late stage. Jakub Kindl *was* a big scoring d-man but has simplified and adjusted his game. And while it's been very painful (much like Ericsson) he's show signs of starting to come around.

If your guy comes into the league needing serious defensive work, he's probably not going to succeed nowadays. And if he does, he will do so often at greatly reduced expectations.


This is all very interesting though. I think we're hitting on some of the many reasons why defensemen around the league aren't panning out well and why d-men are at such a prime price now.
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Re: Official 13-14 NHL Regular Season Thread

Post by batdad »

Stuart is a great example of where I was going. Was blanking last night.

Orr though--not an only offense guy. He was physical and very strong in own zone. He apparently has the highest 3 plus minus ratings in NHL history. He was a guy who did it all right from the get go. A hybrid of Coffey-Lidstom-Stevens for his era.
If you take just what these guys did back in their time and do not add in the benefit of training and medical care and time spent playing and learning the game the kids of today have---yeah he would suck. But ...when you add that in an make all equivalent Orr would still be a stud.

And Yeah Coffey horrid in own zone but well... Nobody cared because he was special.
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Re: Official 13-14 NHL Regular Season Thread

Post by CJ »

Why are you guys talking(comparing) about players in different decades, that's not even valid!?! :roll:
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Re: Official 13-14 NHL Regular Season Thread

Post by Primis »

jhcjobpb wrote:Why are you guys talking(comparing) about players in different decades, that's not even valid!?! :roll:
Because we're discussing the evolution of development of defensemen. It's fairly relevant. You used to be able to throw a teenage Larry Murphy out there and he could wreck shop,and nowadays you can't do that. And we're wondering if over-coaching or just poor coaching is stunting defensive development and not letting real star d-men develop. Because honestly so many of the "star" d-men are offense-first and not-so-good in their own end.
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Re: Official 13-14 NHL Regular Season Thread

Post by CJ »

Primis wrote:
jhcjobpb wrote:Why are you guys talking(comparing) about players in different decades, that's not even valid!?! :roll:
Because we're discussing the evolution of development of defensemen. It's fairly relevant. You used to be able to throw a teenage Larry Murphy out there and he could wreck shop,and nowadays you can't do that. And we're wondering if over-coaching or just poor coaching is stunting defensive development and not letting real star d-men develop. Because honestly so many of the "star" d-men are offense-first and not-so-good in their own end.
Well yes that's true. :-)
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