TBL Rosters 2013-2014; Mistakes, omissions, tweaks etc

[CJ]

For example
- in test one 29 year old Jerome Iginla had a starting CA/PA of 175/189, and by age 32 his CA was 179, and by age 33 his CA was 183 and then he retired.
- in test two 29 year old Jerome Iginla with his starting CA/PA of 175/189 had a 180 CA by age 30, dropped down to a 176 CA for a couple years and by age 34 was back up to 182 which he maintained until age 37 when his CA increased to 184! It dropped down to 178 the following year, and then 151 when he was 39
- in test three 29 year old Jerome Iginla with his starting CA/PA of 175/189 had a CA of 184 at age 30, a CA of 188 at age 31 and a CA of 189 age 32-37, and then his CA fell to 180 at age 38/39

Doesn't the game look at players ages and stop "evolving" them?

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to...what EHM07 does seem to do is develop young players very quickly compared to real life (and "late bloomers" don't really occur)

Pretty interesting. Well looks like Jaromes CA goes down only in his last couple of year.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to...what EHM07 does seem to do is develop young players very quickly compared to real life (and "late bloomers" don't really occur)

That explains why T.Thomas never really "blooms" in my 98 DB.

[CeeBee]

Some notes from a Canucks fan:

Luongo sucks/Ericsson is way to good. Traded Luo to the sharks at the deadline, called up Joacim and haven't looked back. Team went from 1st in the league to even morer the first in the league

D is rated a bit funky, I know Tanev isn't very well known but he's essentially the Canucks #1 defender this season and was a legit top 4 guy last season.

Booth is way to good, Kesler is dominate, and the Sedins get out scored by Jannik Hansen! Also got the Sedins to resign at 4mil each.

It looks likes some guys got re rated and others didn't. I wouldn't mind helping out with some of the prospects and atleast giving a better rough idea for attributes. Ben Hutton and Joseph LaBate (NCAA) were cut from their respective rosters and in real life are the top players (arguably) on their teams.

Meanwhile Jordan Subban is my highest rated prospect and Horvat and Gaunce look like busts.

Kassian is much more a playmaker than goal scorer, and his hitting might be a tad high at 18 (unless it's improved a lot this season)

The Speeds seem pretty random aswell. Kesler sets the bar at 17, Sedins at 11, and Weise is probably a step slower than Kesler but is one of the slowest on the canucks, including Alberts.

I have not done near as much looking around as Tyees but I did look at the Canucks and would echo most of what he said. Tanev is probably their best or 2nd best dman behind Hamhuis. Prospects are all rubbish except Jensen in my game. Horvat looks like a 6 round pick, Gaunce even worse though he should be not as good as Horvat. Shinkaruk's bad, don't know if he was rated low because of having an off year but he has been battling hip and shoulder injuries which is probably why he was a team canada jr cut. And Lack has looked great IRL(better than Louongo maybe) but of course its an extremely small sample size. Most players seem to be rated ok but until I actually play a few seasons it's hard to tell. If I play through this team I'll probably up some of the prospects attributes otherwise it will be no fun at all.
Cheers and merry xmas to all

[pantsukki]

First a big thank you to the whole team! Some random feedback from my Avs game, I've simmed 'till the end of October:

-In the beginning I sorted all the players in the world by reputation, and ranked fifth was Brooks Orpik! Other quite surprising names at the top ("Superb") were Marian Hossa, Daniel Alfredsson, Dan Girardi, Andrew Ladd, Willie Mitchell(!) and Jan Hejda. Especially the latter two seem really out of place.
-Some players' attributes as a whole seem quite low, so far I've spotted Damien Brunner, J-S Giguere, Khubodin (CAR backup), Ben Scrivens and Leland Irving (playing in Finland for Jokerit). Many others' profiles (at least early in the season) also make me wonder what the heck they are doing in the NHL. Shouldn't most NHL players have attributes over 10?
-On the subject of attributes, Olli Määttä seem really highly rated, a lot of 16's all over his profile.
-Colorado is missing three retired jerseys, 19, 21 and 52.
-Kovalchuk's contract in the KHL is only one year (according to Wikipedia at least it should be 4), so he seems easily available for a quick return.
-In the pre-season player rankings Justin Faulk was ranked as the 4th best dman in the league..I know that the rankings are often so-so, but maybe his reputation(?) could use some tuning.
-Bryzgalov was fired by the Oilers in the pre-season, and then quickly signed back to the NHL..by the Flyers! So IMHO some dislike should be added between Philly and him.
-Also Corey Crawford is missing his new lengthy contract. Currently in the game he has only 1 year left.
-Some players have wrong draft info, their info page claims that they've been drafted in the 2013 draft in a non-existent round. So far I've spotted Sergei Soin, Denis Parshin, Luke Walker, Jonas Holos, Kyle Cumiskey, Tomas Vincour (all by the Avs) and Evgeni Kuznetsov (WSH). Not sure if this is WAD due to the CSD patch or something.
-Jokerit from the Finnish Elite League has two players in the roster who aren't there IRL anymore, Patrik Moisio and Markus Nordlund. Also IRL Jari Kurri is the new GM, and Janne Vuorinen is a new "director of personnel".

That's it for now, thanks again for all the hard work!

[archibalduk]

I said this over on the HFBoards, and I'll say this here too because it's relevant to the above:

Thanks for the feedback. The difficulty we've had is a real lack of volunteers with helping to update the NHL. When we've asked for volunteers to help, we get help with one or two teams and that's it. So it has been really hard to update the league on my own using mostly stats, depth charts and the existing attributes. It's too big a league for just one person.

What we really need are people to give feedback on different teams and say who is over/under-rated. Ideally we'd have held on to the DB longer in order to put more work into it and spend more time looking over individual teams. But it would have delayed the release further still (we are already approaching the mid-way point in the regular season and it has been 8 months since the last update). So we're releasing it now and will continue to work on it. But as I said, we desperately need volunteers to give feedback on what needs changing.

I really appreciate the detailed feedback that has been given so far. Please keep it coming. Making detailed posts on a particular team's roster and who is over/under-rated is really helpful indeed.

There are some points I want to make on one or two of the comments above, but I'm typing this on my tablet. So it'll have to wait until I next turn the laptop on (I can't stand the on-screen keyboard).

Merry Christmas.

[lapaz]

First, thanks again rosters

And here a (long) list Finnish SM-league transfers which are missing on rosters:
Kim Hirschovits, FA -> Espoo Blues, contract until the end of 13/14
Harri Ilvonen, Blues -> Free Agents
Tomi Ståhlhammar, Blues -> FA

Austin Block (not in database) -> HIFK Helsinki, 13/14
Mika Hannula, HIFK -> FA
Martti Järventie, HIFK -> Tampereen Ilves (NOT on loan), 14/15
Kimmo Kuhta, HIFK -> Retired
Joel Lehtinen, Kiekko-Vantaa, Fin-2 -> HIFK (on loan from HC Keski-Uusimaa), 13/14
Joël Perrault, HIFK -> Krefeld Pinguine, DEL, 13/14
Jari Sailio, HIFK -> Arystan Temirtau, Kaz, 13/14
Ilkka Vaarasuo, HIFK (on loan) -> Jukurit, Fin-2, 13/14
Jonne Virtanen, HIFK -> JYP Jyväskylä, 14/15

Lauri Kärmeniemi, TUTO (on loan) -> Savonlinnan Pallokerho, Fin-2 (on loan from Hämeenlinnan Pallokerho), 13/14
Juho Mielonen, HPK -> Rouen Hockey Elite 76, Fra, 13/14
Petteri Nikkilä, Peliitat (on loan) -> HPK (NOT on loan), 13/14
Anssi Pesonen, Hokki (on loan) -> Heinolan Peliitat, Fin-2, 13/14
Marko Rairama, HPK -> Peliitat, Fin-2, 13/14
Tuomas Santavuori, HPK -> Lahden Pelicans (on loan from HPK), 13/14
Mikko Tolvanen, HPK -> FA

Daniel Corso, Ilves -> Lempäälän Kisa, Fin-2 (on loan from Ilves), 13/14
Miiko Hintz, HCK (on loan) -> HCK, Fin-2 (NOT on loan), 13/14
Joonas Korpisalo, K-Vantaa (on loan) -> Ilves (on loan from Jokerit until 31.1.14), 13/14
Julius Koskinen, LeKi (on loan) -> KalPa A-Jrs, FinJr, Junior
Niklas Kumpu, Ilves -> FA (got released from RGV Killer Bees (NAHL) in 13.12.13)
Aleksi Mäkelä, Ilves A-Jrs -> Ilves, 15/16
Roope Nikkilä, Ilves -> LeKi, Fin-2, 13/14
Aleksi Orenius, Ilves -> LeKi, Fin-2 (on loan from Ilves), 13/14
Erkki Rajamäki, Ilves -> Retired
Mika Viinanen, Ilves -> FA

Mikko Luoma, FA -> JYP Jyväskylä, 14/15
Samu Perhonen, JYP-Akatemia (on loan) -> Indiana Ice, USHL, 13/14
note
Henrik Koivisto, Jukurit -> Helsingin Jokerit (on loan from K-Vantaa), 14/15
Kevin Lankinen, Jokerit A-Jrs -> Jokerit, 14/15
Patrik Moisio, Jokerit -> FA
Markus Nordlund, Jokerit -> HC Ambrì-Piotta, Sui, 13/14
Aleksi Rekonen, K-Vantaa -> Jokerit (on loan from K-Vantaa), 13/14

Jukka Hentunen, KalPa-Hockey -> FA
Arttu Ilomäki, Tappara -> KalPa (on loan from Tappara), 13/14
Artyom Iossafov, K-Vantaa -> KalPa (on loan from K-Vantaa), 13/14
Pasi Kouvalainen, Hokki -> KalPa, 13/14
Tommi Miettinen, KalPa -> Retired
Juuso Riikola, KalPa A-Jrs -> KalPa, 15/16
Juha Toivonen, KalPa -> FA

Markus Korkiakoski, Oulun Kärpät -> LeKi, Fin-2 (on loan from Kärpät), 13/14
Janne Pälve, Kärpät -> TUTO Hockey, Fin-2 (on loan from Kärpät), 15/16

Eetu Koski, Lukko -> TUTO, Fin-2 (on loan from Lukko), 14/15
Aku Maikola, Lukko -> Anglet Hormadi, Fra-2, 13/14

Antti Iivari, RoKi (on loan) -> FA
Stepan Jeník, Pelicans -> Peliitat, Fin-2 (on loan from Pelicans), 14/15
Kimi Koivisto, HCK (on loan) -> HCK, Fin-2 (NOT on loan), 13/14
Juha-Pekka Pietilä, KooKoo (on loan) -> Pelicans (NOT on loan), 13/14

Roope Hämäläinen, Jukurit (on loan) -> Saimaan Pallo Lappeenranta (NOT on loan), 14/15
Kalle Maalahti, TUTO (on loan) -> SaiPa (NOT on loan), 13/14
Ville Paalanen, SaiPa -> Mikkelin Jukurit (on loan from SaiPa), 13/14
Mikko Pukka, SaiPa -> Beibarys Atyrau, Kaz, 13/14
Lauri Taipalus, Jukurit (on loan) -> SaiPa (NOT on loan), 13/14 (ffs this loan was in 11/12, will somebody please fix this already, seriously...)
Hannu Toivonen, SaiPa -> Toledo Walleye, ECHL, 13/14

Niklas Friman, TPS A-Jrs -> Turun Palloseura, 13/14
Niko Karhu, TPS A-Jrs -> TPS, 13/14
Hannu Kuru, TPS A-Jrs -> TPS, 13/14
Jasper Lindsten, TPS A-Jrs -> TPS, 13/14
Josh MacNevin, TPS -> FA
Jarno Paven, TPS A-Jrs -> TPS, 13/14
Tom Preissing, TPS -> FA
Mikko Rantanen, TPS A-Jrs -> TPS, 14/15
Timo Salo, TPS -> Retired
Timo Seppänen, TPS -> FA
Oskari Siiki, TPS A-Jrs -> TPS, 14/15

Dale Clarke, Tampereen Tappara -> FA
Jani Kautto, Tappara -> SaPKo, Fin-2, 13/14 (the try-out was only for a day...)
Jonatan Tanus, Tappara -> Peterborough Petes, OHL, 13/14

Oskari Lehtinen, Lukko A-Jrs -> Porin Ässät, 13/14
Patrik Parkkonen, TUTO (on loan) -> Ässät (NOT on loan), 13/14


BTW: Eetu Selänne (Teemu's son) does NOT weight 156 kg...

(The list was made by a person who was a part of SM-league updates with the 5.x versions)

[Tyees]

@Archi

I hope nothing I said was taking in the wrong context! It was simply just criticism that can be fixed, never once a complaint about how things should be!

Now that I know where the DB is at I'm more than happy to keep bringing up things to improve it, way easier "being in the know"

[Epic]

I'm a Lightning fan and the team seems very underrated. IRL Ben Bishop has been one of the best goalies so far this season, in the game...he's one of the worst attributes wise. Also big bad Radko Gudas only 10 for strength and 9 for checking. People like Killorn and Johnson seem like average AHL-ers when IRL they are lighting it up.

Tried to fix the attributes myself with the save game editor as I know the pre-game editor doesn't work with the update, but it's a way too complicated process for a person with my computer skills. Maybe somebody can help?

[jopper]

Thanks for the new rosters! But I think that in Finnish SM-Liiga team Oulun Kärpät players Jussi Rynnäs (Goaltender) and also Ben Maxwell (Center) attributes are too low. Especially Rynnäs.

[archibalduk]

@Archi

I hope nothing I said was taking in the wrong context! It was simply just criticism that can be fixed, never once a complaint about how things should be!

No, I didn't take it in the wrong context at all. I'm very grateful you're taking the time to post feedback. It's exactly what we need.

When I have a spare 30 mins, I'll post an explanation of how things were re-rated and re-distributed. I think this will give everybody a better idea of what has been done and what still needs doing (ie rookies). Also, I think it might address questions about whether players are underrated and whether the average NHL player should have attributes of at least 10.

[Manimal]

This is not major mistake, but you have missed Jöel Thériault or it might be because he plays in minor league. And well are you going to update the minor leagues Ex. Finnish mestis?

I have a guy working on the LNAH and the Central Hockey League but he has not sent me anything so those leagues aren't updated at all.
Noone of us working on the rosters have any insight on Finnish hockey so we can't update the Mestis properly. Heck, we have not even done any ratings in the Liiga only transaction s and that wasn't 100% (just did it from Eliteprospects.com and they might have missed things)

-Also Corey Crawford is missing his new lengthy contract. Currently in the game he has only 1 year left.

All players are on their current contracts. No extensions are in the db(don't think it is possible)

-Some players have wrong draft info, their info page claims that they've been drafted in the 2013 draft in a non-existent round. So far I've spotted Sergei Soin, Denis Parshin, Luke Walker, Jonas Holos, Kyle Cumiskey, Tomas Vincour (all by the Avs) and Evgeni Kuznetsov (WSH). Not sure if this is WAD due to the CSD patch or something.

That is so that the NHL teams would keep their playing rights in game. Unless drafted in the past two seasons, rights get lost. Don't remember if it is only if not selecting all leagues but I did it this way to be sure. Draft info is otherwise only cosmetical

[ppaalloo]

http://prntscr.com/2duze8 What the Dickens

[Manimal]

http://prntscr.com/2duze8 What the Dickens

See the post above

EDIT: For some reason it won't work with Kovalchuk. It does with other Russians so I guess it can be because of age or experience

[Jonesy2042]

Your missing the Vancouver Giants of the WHL
Edited: there is also the problem with the colleges because they are apart of hockey east in the NCAA not the uhl

[nino33]

Your missing the Vancouver Giants of the WHL

They're not missing, they're in the BCHL.
The number of teams in a playable League in EHM is hardcoded. In 2006 there were 21 teams in the WHL, and now there are 22 (and because things are hardcoded there is no way to increase the number of teams in the WHL).....as the Giants were the worst team in the WHL last year IRL, they are "demoted" to the BCHL

Edited: there is also the problem with the colleges because they are apart of hockey east in the NCAA not the uhl

This was done on purpose; the UHL doesn't exist any more (folded in 2010), and moving the Hockey East into the UHL allows these 10 College teams to be playable!

[jesterx7769]

I never really looked before but is there a thread that says what needs help on? How do you work with numerous contributors on the database? Is it cloud based, are you able to copy over things that someone else edits? Or do you have to go through manually and re-edit after someone does some research? Like if I update a team do you then have to manually go into your database to put it in or can you copy over the changed files?

I am interested to hear what Archi says about the re-ratings but I think you guys are over thinking the rosters in trying to make so many adjustments by lowering player attributes instead of just a solid NHL roster which overall most people probably play. I mean Ryan O'Marra and Rob Schremp are better skaters than the Sedin's and most NHL players and Bishop who is 4th in GAA is terrible just like Varlamov yet Tim Thomas is still a stud. Drouin who is touted as a top prospect only has a PA around 130 in the tests I've done, not even 150?

I know the rosters are insane ton of work for no appreciation mainly due to the drafts and CHL updating which is why I was asking how you guys work as I would have no problem helping make simple adjustments. While being able to play as college teams, all sorts of global leagues, and trying to do realistic scoring instead of 7-5 games is good, it seems like you need some people to focus on general NHL updating especially since its midseason and not the beginning where "off" ratings are to be expected. You said it is too much for one person Archi so hopefully this will get more people helping and volunteering. I guess if I know the best way to help is to either post players that are over/under rated or editing them and sending you a file.

[nino33]

How do you work with numerous contributors on the database? Is it cloud based, are you able to copy over things that someone else edits? Or do you have to go through manually and re-edit after someone does some research? Like if I update a team do you then have to manually go into your database to put it in or can you copy over the changed files?

The EHM Updater is used http://www.ehmtheblueline.com/forums/vi ... 10&t=11154
The Updater exports/imports the data using different spreadsheets (allowing multiple people to work on the database at the same time)
Here's the 2012 thread with some great researcher guidelines http://www.ehmtheblueline.com/forums/vi ... =45&t=9956




Regarding Player Attributes...

Here's an Attribute Guide http://www.ehmtheblueline.com/forums/vi ... it=realist

Mental Attributes http://www.ehmtheblueline.com/forums/vi ... =attribute

Physical Attributes
unchanging/permanent - Injury Proneness, Natural Fitness, Consistency, Decisions, Dirtiness, Important Matches, Pass Tendency, Agitation, Versatility, Flair, Bravery, Aggression and Speed
rarely/barely changing - Determination, Influence, Teamwork and Work Rate

Also, AFAIK the "Staff Attributes" don't change/develop (Adaptability, Ambition, Loyalty, Pressure, Professionalism, Sportsmanship and Temperament)

I mean Ryan O'Marra and Rob Schremp are better skaters than the Sedin's and most NHL players

I'm not aware if player attributes in the Norwegian/Italian/Swiss Leagues were even looked at...

Drouin who is touted as a top prospect only has a PA around 130 in the tests I've done, not even 150?

His PA is -8 (130-160)

I know the rosters are insane ton of work for no appreciation mainly due to the drafts and CHL updating which is why I was asking how you guys work

Different people do different things (at the same time, using the updater spreadsheets). For example, I worked on just the OHL/QMJHL (and I focused on adding the 2013 OHL/QMJHL draftees and on reviewing/updating CA/PA for all...I did not review/edit individual Attributes)

I guess if I know the best way to help is to either post players that are over/under rated or editing them and sending you a file.

Ideally the EHM Updater's the way to go!

If you use the Updater to produce an "exported_attributes" file you'll be able see all players and all their Attributes.
The Updater uses "Templates" to import data.

If you're wanting to get working on things right away, I suggest just using an exported_attributes file and just use a different colour font/fill to indicate what you're editing (when the time comes to do so such a file can be "cleaned up" and be made ready for importing pretty quickly)



Regards

[Manimal]

We are discussing behind the scenes how best you users can help us out. We will make some sort of announcement on it later on.
In the meantime this thread is always open for suggestions.
We do not want anyone sending us their entire edited db, we are only interested in the actual changes.
If you guys want to use the EHM Updater then what we want is an attribute_update file containing the changes so we can see what you've done

[Peter_Doherty]

We are discussing behind the scenes how best you users can help us out. We will make some sort of announcement on it later on.
In the meantime this thread is always open for suggestions.
We do not want anyone sending us their entire edited db, we are only interested in the actual changes.
If you guys want to use the EHM Updater then what we want is an attribute_update file containing the changes so we can see what you've done

I PMed you some input i had, hope that's okey.

[jesterx7769]

Thank you both for replying, as others have said my comments aren't meant as "mean" at all so I hope they don't read that way. I am downloading and looking into it now for some easy fixes like draft picks and player weights that aren't priorities for you guys when it comes to the db functioning as a whole.

[Fredlig]

Wouldnt it be good to make a forum with threads of every NHL-team with a CA/PA list of the lineup and prospects and the three best/worst attributes on each player and then users can comment on the lists. I know the FM-community have the same thing for the official updates done at fmsweden.se

[nino33]

Wouldnt it be good to make a forum with threads of every NHL-team with a CA/PA list of the lineup and prospects and the three best/worst attributes on each player and then users can comment on the lists.

I like the idea, but wouldn't doing so take someone a lot of work just to set up? (especially determining the three best/worst attributes on each player).

My understanding is the problem for a few years now has been lack of researchers (and lack of time for the few researchers there are).
IMO with the EHM Updater able to export a list of all players and their CA/PA and Attributes (exported_attributes file), I think it's pretty easy to submit feedback/suggestions for those inclined to do so

[Tyees]

I could do a pretty extensive list of NHL teams and there CA/PA's along with notable attributes

[pantsukki]

When I have a spare 30 mins, I'll post an explanation of how things were re-rated and re-distributed. I think this will give everybody a better idea of what has been done and what still needs doing (ie rookies). Also, I think it might address questions about whether players are underrated and whether the average NHL player should have attributes of at least 10.

I hope that you haven't forgotten this! And please don't understand this so that I feel like I'm entitled to an explanation, I'm just genuinely curious as to what the reasoning behind the downgrading is.

[nino33]

I could do a pretty extensive list of NHL teams and there CA/PA's along with notable attributes

If you wanted such a list you can get one in seconds using the EHM Updater (it'll produce a list of all players and their CA/PA, all Attributes and more)

[nino33]

I'm just genuinely curious as to what the reasoning behind the downgrading is.

What do you mean by "downgrading"?

I just took a look at the NHL before/after the recent update...

Average NHL CA before was 131, average NHL CA after is 132
There were 30 NHLers with a CA 180-200 before, and now there are 23 NHLers with a CA 180-200
There was 66 NHLers with a CA 160-179 before, and now there are 67 NHLers with a CA 160-179
There was 170 NHLers with a CA 140-159 before, and now there are 185 NHLers with a CA 140-159

I actually expected to see results that showed greater variance/change...but it doesn't seem that different to me