EHM The Blue Line

spumantii wrote:The last time I (overtly respectfully) asked when to expect this (sometime in August) I was confronted with snorts and told something along the lines of 'maybe this game isn't meant for you' when I admitted what most people are thinking which is the reason I bought and wait to play this game was to sim from up-to date NHL rosters. I then saw that there was a lack of volunteers helping make that happen. Patience is good and nice and well deserved until the other party stops being courteous, then the gloves come off.

It would seem ironic that rather than ask an interested party to volunteer I was given a cold shoulder and the topic was locked as even though I was especially clear I was happy with the game, which inspired my interest in the up-to date rosters, some were only capable of seeing my message as criticism. I was told I should be able to have fun without them by principle because 'everything changes every year anyway'. If a lack of volunteers is the issue there are better ways to get people than alienating paying customers on your forum. If I was being critical I could have listed a number of things I didn't mention, like the absolutely god-awful UI.

The game wasn't free, I paid via steam thinking there was a team at work here- not a bunch of volunteers, despite the fact that I would have volunteered just to be able to play it properly again. You're making money by selling this game, presumably, mostly to players who care about the NHL, not as much the minutae of some backwater Euro League, so maybe priorities should be set where they would provide you with more customers and or interest from existing customers. If getting more customers means keeping the game up to date then hire some people. If you have the year 2015 and the NHL rosters up-to-date, but you're missing some details from the dunderwhistle midget league in northern Scotland for example... Then you've got priorities all mixed up, assuming you want to stay in business. As great as 2014 was I can't play through it another time, so I'll keep this thing shelved and maybe forget about it

spumantii wrote:In that case, I stand corrected, i thought the NHL rosters and the game itself came from the same crew, since much of the news of both seems to come from the same few people. Let me make it clear then that I fully admire the commitment and dedication to this experience, shown by those volunteers.

That's a bit of a rude awakening with regards to the game out-of-the-box, since it seems like much more has been put into the rosters than into the vanilla game. The game is a skeleton without these rosters, which are clearly the meat and potatoes that just about anyone (would want to) expect out of the box.

It really shines a light on what this simulation engine is missing. That team is doing more to sell this game than the devs are IMO, given the state of the UI and how data is presented (and not presented, in a sensible way, am I supposed to believe this is the final sensible modern interpretation of a 2007 UI? A UI that didn't incorporate the standard paradigms we've gotten familiar with links where object is clickable, tooltips, resizeable elements, being able to open two windows, any kind of graphing or individual history? Smart sorting, tree based menu locations or generally things that aren't a click intensive eyesore? Even that existed in 2007.) these volunteers should be getting paid somehow.

The simulation code gets so many things right, it's a shame they put all that inside the chassis of a Model T. The sim code should be gutted with the 2d play engine and put into a modern windows form.

If the core of the game is presentation of data, and the muscle is all the player data, then you volunteers have clearly outdone the devs. They should be paying you, or doing it themselves. I wish I'd known this sooner.

EDIT, I guess it's licensing related, that they can't/won't do the NHL rosters. Fine. Then go re-invent last century's UI. /rant

“Eastside Hockey Manager: Early Access marks the 'rebirth' of a classic game that developed a devoted following among hockey fans between 2004 and 2007. Steam's Early Access system offers us the perfect platform to bring EHM back, allowing fans to not only enjoy the game, but also to have a direct influence on its development as we build up to a full release of the most realistic and immersive ice hockey management title to date.

Eastside Hockey Manager was 'shelved' back in 2007 because it simply didn't make financial sense for us to to continue publishing it as a 'boxed game' at that time; we were not only badly affected by piracy, we were also hit by the way retail used to work, particularly in the US. Boxed copies of the game would fly off the shelves in places where hockey was popular, but would languish in places where it wasn't – and there was no system in place for those boxes to be shifted from one State to another. Steam wasn't anywhere near as popular back then as it is now, so we didn't have a digital solution to this problem like we do now.

We have never wavered in our belief that there’s an enthusiastic and active fan base for this game which we've seen at the Blueline community (http://www.ehmtheblueline.com/) and now, using Early Access, we want to prove that to everyone else.

Getting the game into its current state has been very much a ‘hobby project’ for a few of us at the studio. Up until now we've worked on EHM in what little spare time we have (Football Manager keeps us all very busy) but now, using Early Access will give us some budget to be able to put more resources into EHM, whilst not losing any from FM. We’re doing it now because we've hired some of the people we need to cover the extra work.

Early Access will also give us an opportunity to get the feedback we need from the community to ensure that this is the game they want to play.

Finally, we need to prove that there is enough demand to justify resurrecting the series fully. Whilst this version has ‘fake’ data, we want to show that there is a demand for a fully licensed version of the game. That won’t come with this release but, if it’s successful, it means we can go to the leagues around the world and get licenses for future, annualised, versions (in much the same way that we do with FM).

And, bluntly, nothing beats a testing resource of hundreds or thousands of people. Your help in this regard is greatly appreciated.”
Approximately how long will this game be in Early Access?
“We’re not completely sure on that just yet. But we’re talking months, not years.”
How is the full version planned to differ from the Early Access version?
“Polish, polish, polish. But we’re also planning some extra features – a play-off tree view will be rolled out in the first update, with some major improvements to player progression following in the second. At some point in the Early Access cycle we also plan to include a network game mode and some further playable leagues. And we’ll be looking at features that you, the community, suggest – if we like them (and they’re technically achievable) then we’ll do what we can to get them into the final game.”
What is the current state of the Early Access version?
“It’s fully playable and includes 11 leagues from around the world and 13 international tournaments. At the moment the game is English-language only.

We haven’t seen any crashes for a while, but that doesn’t mean there won’t be a few when people start to play the game for the long-term on a variety of different hardware configurations.

If and when we do find any crashes we’ll roll out updates as soon as they are fixed. We also plan to put out a regular update every two weeks (on Thursday evenings, UK time).”
Will the game be priced differently during and after Early Access?
“Yes. It will be cheaper during the Early Access period to thank people for helping to steer the game in the right direction.”
How are you planning on involving the Community in your development process?
“We want as much feedback and as many bug reports as possible, please. We were one of the first ‘community driven’ studios – our fans have been directly involved in shaping our games for 20 years – and we want to keep this going both through our own forums (at http://community.sigames.com/) and here on Steam for EHM. We will always make the final decision on what does and doesn’t go into our games, but we treat every idea from the community in exactly the same way as we treat ideas that come from people within the studio.”

spumantii wrote:I see. So this is in fact just a sidecar, an appendix of a game.
I don't think there's any doubt about the demand. If there was, the NHL would not have given the rights to EA. Half the people I know that play the EA games play them to be a GM.
I know it's early access but this part was news to me:

How is the full version planned to differ from the Early Access version?
“Polish, polish, polish. But we’re also planning some extra features" (since when is a playoff tree considered an 'extra feature'?)

That's why I'm disappointed. You can polish that UI until your arms fall off and it's still going to be rough. If they thought looking at player data and *having* a playoff tree were extra features it says a lot about what they think is needed to get the sales they need to convince the NHL. You kind of need to use the full arse.

So in other words, what we're going to get in the end is half the arse, for half the price because we were excited and vulnerable, since I doubt people will pay full price for a half arse, and the NHL won't see the sales they think they need as a result- great plan! Win now mode = failed rebuild- sounds familiar? Haha, but all of that is another topic.

spumantii wrote:I wouldn't make that assumption. Were you at EA Canada? At the same time I was? That means next to nothing. Just because I'm choosing to be critical doesn't mean I'm uninformed about anything other than what their intent for the final game was. I got as far as recognizing it as an updated ehm 2007 and that was my assumption, didn't include that it was a spin off of FA. I thought the intent was to carry this on into a full title since steam circumvented some of the issues they had earlier.

When I worked at Piranha Games we did a lot of work (just beforeTF2 and Mechwarrior) on games for Bass Pro Shops. We never developed anything before we had a client. I know that games that don't get funding don't get developed. Clients that don't have their way don't give funding, and I'm not totally on board with today's kickstarty early access-y model. There's much less risk involved than there used to be, whereby a studio had to choose to make the investment FIRST rather than second, and were immediately responsible for a well presented product. Presentation always meant as much or more than features or data. I'm speaking out of principle more than anything else when I criticize that model and frequent instances of let down when the final product simply does not materialize. Success comes after the fact. Good niche games create markets of their own. in 2007 few were talking about sandbox survival games.

If you want money, you have to impress people and it boils down to that. Even if you have pure gold intentions and the best level of passion you are still wasting your time if you put ten eggs in the simulation basket and none in the UI. I want to see the game make it to a solid final state and I hope people don't take on the other game just because of an issue as trivial as UI and data tables. This is where the halfway model fails. The initial investment is what makes a final product regardless of sales and yeah it's sad that SI wasn't able to do it without the early access bag. My steam list is full of incomplete garbage and I hope this doesn't end up that way. If you're going to bother to invest, go big or go home rings true. The halfway model does not motivate a typical developer to finish the job.

I am aware of early access status, I wasn't aware of how far they were willing to take this game, and it goes without saying the licensing would cost too much in almost any scenario except one that includes consoles. I knew that when I bought it. High risk product? This is a risk only product with that in mind. It wasn't guaranteed money before steam, the reasons I gathered were due to piracy and inventory.

I know SI isn't a big company, but how we view data in there is integral to the success of the game as I get tired of clicking that button so are others. Ten early access purchasers that get in and see a terrible interface and quit after 4 days are worth less than five full purchase buyers that get the release version, are impressed, stick with it for longer, and tell their friends.

People don't work for free, so if you have to pay more to get more then so be it. I'd be fine with paying the full price for the full game- but we will never know what that's really going to be. That's the problem with early access. I guess what I'm saying is this game should never have been started, from a business perspective, and I love that they are doing it, but I still wish for (the unattainable?) the 'next generation' feel of a fully built EHM. I don't have the data but I'd love to say that EHM with an online versing system/leagues and a modern interface (maybe even 3d game view) could compete. I'm pretty sure those are the main draws to the console NHL games but you probably know more, I was only at EA for a testing contract.