EHM Ceases Development: TBL To Carry On!

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Minstrel
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Post by Minstrel »

Also, there is still tons of projects and content that can be added to the game... more faces, more skin elements, more logos, more news items etc. etc. and in testing they routinely run the game out to like the year 2150 to test changes and development.

You'll see a lot of refinements to the 2d engine and player development with the new patch; they knew the writing was on the wall and I know Riz spent tons of time twaeking the 2d and running long soak tests to track/tweak player development. I think they've done what they could to carry us over with a strong base to work from and that will be our focus going forward.

I agree with CatchUp, now more than ever it's important for us to have a strong TBL. And ya know what? I think we're just the guys to do it 8-)
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Post by sjsharkz »

Well I'd like to thank all of you guys, and the developers/creators of this game, I have never ever been so well I will say it, addicted, to a game before, I play it for hours and hours, and I can say I don't get bored.

I would like to mention I am an Australian, and the lack of hockey over here is painful, I am really passionate about hockey, and realy passionate about San Jose Sharks. My point is, there is 2 live games on TV a week, that isnt good enough for me, I listen to every Sharks game on the internet. This game is the best game I've ever played , I am very passionate about this game, and I am quite upset and mad at the news, because this is the best game out, and it softened the blow, of "lack of hockey" in Australia.
I'd like to thank the people who made this game, and made it wat it is, and I really will be praying for future releases.

In closing I'd like to thank all of you, you have made my EHM experience so much more fun, I love the feedback i get from posts, I love hearing about other peoples success/failure, and I love the constant little updates images etc.
Don't forget that we are all here for the same reason, We love hockey, and we love EHM

Thanks
Tim
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Post by B. Stinson »

Also, there is still tons of projects and content that can be added to the game... more faces, more skin elements
Good point. One thing that always kept me from making full blown skins was the playing-time it took away from an already short(one year) life of the games. I guess now we've got pretty much all the time we need... which is why I'm now thinking I just may start meself a skin and see where it takes me. :dunno: :thup:
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Post by batdad »

My thoughts exactly. Since I got the game I have considered doing a WHL guide for it. I just felt I would never play the game if I did. I may look into that. Note: I may not however, as I have a family to deal with. Only if I have time without staying up all nite.
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Post by The Senator »

This is a dam shame.I also am not suprised.I hope TBL can stay together.I want to thank everyone here who took their time to help me to understand how to play this game.I am going to hang in here with you guys.
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devastating news

Post by thegauch »

I must say that this was a huge bombshell. I love this game - the team that work on it were always listening and interacting with the forum posters and actually used our ideas in the game. I know for a fact one of my suggestions got re-worked into 2007 from 2005 - that's just unheard of in the gaming world. Anyhow my biggest worry now is that since it was a download version this time out is will it work with Vista going forward and I am sure glad I paid the extra $10 for the backup disc!!!! Let's keep this site going with updates, graphics, etc. Long live EHM!!
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Post by noctambulist »

This is really too bad. It's one thing when naff games get canceled, but it's sad and a shame when fantastic games like this one do. One thing I am very happy about and thankful for is that the team who put this game together still have jobs and their talents are still being put to good use. Games come and go and I can live just fine without a new version of EHM, but people need to make a living and pay bills and stuff, and I'm glad they didn't lose their jobs.

That being said, I echo the sentiments that we here at TBL can still keep this game alive. Just look at Baldur's Gate. Their forums and mod community are still pumping along just fine.. There's absolutely no reason why this game can't still give us years of enjoyment. Also, this site has not only become my #1 site for EHM stuff, but also for hockey chat in general, and I don't see myself not being a fan of hockey any time soon. I would probably be more sad if this site were to go away. Good thing you guys are still here.
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Post by Thundercleese »

In the "3.0.3 Patch out now!" thread I said that I'm not inherently against piracy, but that what's happened is remarkably lame. I also said that piracy in this case sucks. I paid full price for EHM and would happily sucker punch everyone who did not if I could. At the time I said that my opinion regarding piracy was well-informed and hoped no one would challenge it, because it wasn't really supposed to be the point of the post and if they did I would have to write a semi-essay, leaving out key points and important arguments or else I might crash the server with it's unbearable length. I would also have to explain that, despite my arguments, I think that people need to exercise much more responsibility when they illegally download content, and that I don't condone piracy at all when it affects the little guy, when it hurts the people that do things right.

So Shadd came with this:
"thundercleese: you're darn wrong about the downloading music thing! I'll just take the example of France, where internet and illegal downloads became easily accessible to nearly everyone at a cheap price around 5 years ago... In those 5 years, the number of cd sales get a drop of 60%! That's not what i'd call "statistically equivalent to zero"...

Of course, famous bands still sell a lot and have no problems to live from their music. Same for famous movies, big video games, etc. But many bands (including some friends of mine) stopped playing music because of the illegal downloads. For them, less sales equals not enough money to live, which leads them to find a job, and so they don't have enough time to work on their music. They should have become famous if things weren't what they are.

Some ideas of movies will never come to life, because the guy that had those ideas have seen his last movie over-pirated, and so he doesn't have enough money to make the new one.

In the same way, EHM should have become a very popular management game, given the time... But now we know it will never.

By the way, the day when piracy will have kill all the music, all the movies, and all the video games, what will they have to download? They are just killing creativity."

Now I'm sorry for what follows. The last few paragraphs are really the key, but I think the issues are significant and often ignored with everything else that goes on in the world. I'm a double-major in communications and political science at university, so issues like this are what I go to school for--they're important to me and I'm therefore coming from a well-informed, critical place. I agree with Shadd in that the little guy can get hurt by piracy, and it really sucks when it happens. But a majority of such activity is directed at those who don't feel the impact. It's important to recognize that this is not a black and white issue--stealing from Sony Records is completely different than stealing from SI Games. Why are the two different? Read on to find out. All I ask is that if you want to comment on my stance, please read everything. Again, I'm sorry to those who aren't interested, or who have to scroll down for ten minutes to get to the next post or whatever.

Okay...first of all, Shadd, I'm curious about where you're getting your statistics. A 60% drop sounds awfully inflated, and almost certainly biased. Not to mention that CD sales have dropped for a variety of factors that have nothing to do with downloading. Music in the last 5-10 years especially has become increasingly corporatized--overall quality is down, as is variety. This means people are less willing to pay the ridiculous mark-up CDs inflict. Tied to the quality issue is the fact that many albums are comprised of two or three singles buried in 10-15 tracks, most of which is filler. A big reason downloading caught on so quickly is because people didn't have to spend 15 dollars to get the two or three songs they actually wanted to listen to. This is also why iTunes has been a success, because it offers only the songs consumers want for a comparatively reasonable price.

You say your friend's band should have been famous. Not only is this a highly subjective and unreliable statement, if you consider the music landscape in the Western world (and I can only really speak for North America here), that's not really how it works. Musicians (generally) aren't made famous by their talent, they're made famous by their marketability. That's why you see more and more 'pre-packaged' musicians like Britney Spears and the Pussycat Dolls. That's why you hear more and more formulaic rubbish on the radio, in both rock and top 40. Furthermore, and this is true of ALL bands, not just big ones, a majority of profit comes from touring, not record sales. I'm curious about how a decrease in record sales would destroy a band's living--did they not tour at all? Are royalty payments significantly higher in France?

Record corporations have also been granted an obscene amount of control over the content that actually reaches us via traditional channels, namely free radio and music television. Since the Bush administration handed control of the FCC to Michael Powell, an unheard of amount of media consolidation has taken place, giving one corporation in particular (Clear Channel) control over something like 1500 radio stations. Media conglomerates are a SERIOUS problem in the Western world--the fact that so much of the information we receive through television, newspapers, books, etc, etc, is controlled by no more than six multi-national corporations should scare the rubbish out of everybody.

Many musical acts and filmmakers have adapted to the prevalence of piracy--bands are now gaining notoreity by encouraging their songs to be downloaded for free because they realize that by extensive touring and merchandising, they will make a healthy profit regardless of record sales. "MySpace bands" are the best example of this--groups like Hawthorne Heights and Silverstein sell very few records (50,000 to 500,000 per release, which is really small potatoes). This inherently contradicts the corporate-hiearchy system that has dominated the recording industry for years, taking power away from producers and placing it in the hands of consumers, this is why the internet is so frightening to the powers-that-be: they no longer have the control that they used to. As another example, Steven Soderbergh embraced the dominance of the internet by releasing his film "Bubble" simultaneously in theatres, on DVD and on the internet, a move that was unanimously rejected by Hollywood honchos.

Basically my issue is with copyright, and since piracy has such a negative impact on copyright, I think it can be a good thing. Copyright was created in the 18th century in England by Queen Anne who enacted the Statute of Anne. This guaranteed that creators of intellectual property would receive royalties for their work for 20 years after it was released in the marketplace, after which time it would become public property. The idea was to encourage contributors to the cultural commons to continue producing works to support themselves because they couldn't ride one creation their entire lives. NOW, however, copyright extends to 75 years AFTER the creator has died, and corporations, specifically Disney, are pushing for more. How does the original creator of this material benefit from his copyright after he's dead? I wholeheartedly agree with the concept that people who create art deserve compensation for their efforts, what I disagree with is the fact that these efforts are used to line the pockets of those who had nothing to do with their creation.

Entertainment corporations particularly are at a great advantage when it comes to intellectual property--distributing and printing 3 million CDs for worldwide release would be nearly impossible for a small garage band with a cult following (hence the rise of bands advertising themselves, for free, on the internet--again, control removed from traditional hands). Therefore, the producers of content no longer own their content, they are forced to sell the rights to the corporations who provide distribution, or they will never have their work appear on a grand scale. Consider the makers of the film Saw--they are receiving exactly ZERO from the success of the trilogy they spawned. Although they receive writer's salaries for the second and third, and director/writer/actor salaries for the first, they get nothing from DVD sales, nothing from box office returns, nothing from merchandising. To get their film made they had to sell the rights to their creation to Lion's Gate, period. It never would have seen the light of day otherwise. Does it seem right to you that the guys who put all the effort into the franchise get just a sliver of it's profits? Saw II, for example, made 140 million dollars worldwide, box office alone. Writer's salaries tend to be six figures, not nine. If Wan and Whannell (the original creators) were not forced to sell the rights to their creation to get it made, they would be reaping ALL the rewards, not a small fraction of them. So who do you think is keeping creators from making money, internet pirates or the corporations that distribute the material? Whoever holds the copyright is in the best position, and since the copyright is in the wrong hands, copyright is wrong. How about Disney? Walt Disney never let the animators or writers of his films take credit for their work. He created the illusion that he was behind it all. This allowed him to reap all the rewards, in both respect and money while those who toiled under him got next to nothing--all because Disney owned the copyrights.

In Canada we have to pay a tax for recordable media like blank CDs (and maybe iPods are next) in order to 'prevent piracy and make sure Canadian recording artists receive due recompense for their efforts' (not a direct quote). However, the money goes to a bunch of stiffs who head up record presses, distribution concerns, etc. NONE of it goes to the artists. Shouldn't that be the point? To protect the artists, not the people who own what the artists produced?

Your argument that filmmakers will never have their ideas come to life because their previous film was over-pirated is absolutely absurd. Give me one example of this being the case. Just one. What about YouTube, and the plethora of examples of people who are literally signed on to bigger things because of their exposure on the free site? ANY filmmaker who is just starting out would rightly love to have a small, independent project seen for free by millions of people around the world over the internet, even if they pirated it. Why? Because it gets his name out, it gets him noticed. Also, filmmakers themselves NEVER foot the bill for their own stuff (unless they're just starting out, and as I said, they want exposure firstly, profit secondly because exposure = profit in the long-term), that's what movie studios are for. It costs something like 18,000 dollars an hour to run a movie set, you think that's coming out of Ridley Scott's pocket?

If you really think that piracy will kill creativity, you're absolutely insane. Like certifiable. You think that the human condition is going to go away because people aren't getting paid enough? Real artists just want people to listen or watch or play. Art isn't about profit, it's about making an impact, about leaving your mark on the world. It's about self-expression or social critique. Did the African tribes of pre-historic eras complain that they weren't making enough for their music? Did Native American craftsmen threaten to stop producing totem poles because too many people looked at them without paying? It's only because of the misguided value system we have in this society that this is an issue.

In fact, copyright legislation IMPEDES creativity more than it protects it. Consider Buffy the Vampire Slayer fansites--they were all given a cease and desist order from FOX for using copyrighted characters, despite the protestations of show creator Joss Whedon. FOX was concerned that the character was being used in manners it was not intended for. But if someone wants to react creatively to something in their cultural space, should they not have the right to do so? Especially if they're not making a profit? Postmodern art as a whole relies on incorporating existing cultural icons, images and ideas and commenting on them in a variety of ways--often this implies copyright violation. But if I cannot say what I want to say without stepping on someone else's intellectual property toes, is my freedom of speech not being violated? Who's killing creativity now? If I call The Blueline a "Mickey Mouse operation" (which is IS NOT, I'm just trying to make a point), I could well be sued for mis-using the term Mickey Mouse even though, as a concept, Mickey Mouse has cultural connotations far beyond the original intent of the Disney Corporation. How about Time Warner suing international criminals THE GIRL GUIDES OF AMERICA FOR SINGING HAPPY BIRTHDAY? That's not a joke. There are literally hundreds of examples of this if you're looking for them. This is the kind of thing that modern copyright laws have brought us, this kind of over-the-top corporate control and therefore action that violates this extreme incarnation of copyright is actually an (often unintentional) assertment of our democratic rights to freedom of culture.

For what it's worth, I'm not much of a pirate myself. I see movies in the theatre and if I like them I buy them on DVD. If I support a band, I buy their CD, especially if they're a smaller operation. I paid full price for EHM, and I would do it again in a second. I think that copyright is an inherently GOOD concept, but, like so many good things (atomic energy, for example), it has been misused and turned into a vile bastardization. Artists DO deserve to make a living from the contributions they make to our cultural landscape (some moreso than others...), ESPECIALLY guys like Riz and Graeme, who have clearly poured their hearts into this game that we all enjoy so much. What's happened with EHM really sucks, I mean it, and I think it's awful that piracy is the cause of something so awesome coming to an end. I wish people would be more thoughtful about something like piracy--it's one thing to jack some Metallica songs or stick it to Viacom International. It's quite another to exploit something like this.

My point with this whole rant is that copyright has gotten away from its noble intentions, and that's why I'm not inherently anti-piracy--it's not about protecting artists anymore, it's about making sure the rich get richer. This certainly doesn't appear to be the case with SI Games though--seems to me that the company is one of those entities that uses copyright for its original purpose: to give its employees the chance to earn a living and to give the public something really special. Unfortunately, not everybody gets the difference, so they don't think twice about who gets hurt. It's too bad that people pirate content because they're cheap, not because of the socio-cultural implications of the act.

In case you're curious, this is where the "statistical impact of zero" thing comes from: http://www.unc.edu/~cigar/papers/FileSh ... ch2004.pdf
It's a joint study between Harvard University and the University of North Carolina. There are plenty of other academic sources behind my statements, but this is the most significant in my opinion. If you want I'll post them, but I can't imagine you do...
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Minstrel
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Post by Minstrel »

Undeniably well said in regard to how much more heinous it is to download an illegal version of a game like this. =D>

And if we ever get our hands on a downloaders list I'll gladly join you for the worldwide EHM beatdown tour like in Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back :thewar:
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Post by grazza »

Still gutted from this news. It is good to see we can stick together here and really with all the amazing updates and graphics etc make EHM 07 the complete article. If we can keep this site here going and get more people in the community it will show SI and any one else out there that there is base to build on and not from scratch next time.
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Post by Shadd666 »

Thundercleese: Many interesting points in your post, and i totally agree with you on the copyright thing. Also, the fact that non-famous artists (on the french music market at least) only earn 10% of the sales is stupid (even if somewhat logical on a financial point of view for the company).

I would have many other things to say/comment over your post, and i'd also like to read the what's in the link you gave, but unfortunately i have a train to take in a few minutes, so it will wait some days before i give you a more precise answer as i'm going in a place where i won't be able to connect to the net :cry:

By the way, thanks for such a long and detailed post :thup: Even if we disagree on some points, it's still interesting and constructive to debate 8-)
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Post by mark_htfc »

This news is tradgic. I can't believe what I am reading :cry: . I loved EHM and this has been one of the best games I have played. Since playing 05 Hockey became my second sport.

GOD darn those pirate coppies. I guess with it being download only it was always going to be a possibility. Shame really.

I just hope they can start prodction again but I doubt it :cry:
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Post by Thundercleese »

Shadd: Thanks for being mature about getting such an over-the-top response. Some people might just say "well you smell like bacon grease" or something without reading the entire thing. See what EHM did? Bringing together intelligent, well-adjusted, open-minded people?

Like I said, this is what I go to school for, so I kinda like writing about it and I think it's an issue that's under the surface but should be given more attention. Thank everyone at TBL for allowing a forum for this kind of discussion. I wish it could come under more positive circumstances.
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Saving the Blue Line

Post by The Senator »

I am new here.I joined in October.I love Ehm but it is gone.The Blue Lines membership stopped growing yesterday.The only people who are going to be in this community are people who own ehm.I belive that the only way we are going to save The Blue Line is to find another game.I am not being a traitor.I am being realistic.The love of hockey is how we found each other,not EHM.There has to be another good (strategy)hockey sim out there.Notice that I said strategy sim.I hate action sims where you need nimble fingers to play a game where the stats are way off.I think that most of us have this in common.We love sports sims,but would rather use our brains than our fingers.If we use our collective eyes and ears while we still have a forum here maybe we can find the new game.While looking for a hockey strategy sim I came across an add in a hockey magazine(The Hockey News) for a game called Strat-O Matic Computer Hockey.They have been making sports strategy games for over fourty years.I played strat-o-matic baseball as a kid over forty years ago.It was a board and dice game and the stats were very realistic.I emailed them today for a brochure.I am hoping that some of you oldtimers with ehm will check this and other games out and report back to us for discussion.Their web site is www.strat-o-matic.com.Apba game company made a stat based hockey game also at one time.If we as a community dont find a new game to rally around than TBL will slowley die.Remember that no new members will be joining a site for a game that they can no longer buy.So untill EHM is reborn,which is unlikley,lets go find that new game.
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Post by The Senator »

Reguarding my last post you have the link wrong.Its www.Strat-O-Matic.com
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Post by archibalduk »

Firstly, please could you put spaces after commas and full-stops. It's really difficult to read what you say :help:

TBL isn't going to die. We're an EHM and hockey site and for the foreseeable future we will remain so. I don't think we should switch games just because EHM development has been halted. By switching to another game, we'd lose the fantastic community that I'm so proud we've built up. Simply because no-one has registered for a user account today doesn't mean everyone has suddenly lost interest; we often go days without a new users.
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TBL

Post by The Senator »

archibalduk wrote:Firstly, please could you put spaces after commas and full-stops. It's really difficult to read what you say :help:

TBL isn't going to die. We're an EHM and hockey site and for the foreseeable future we will remain so. I don't think we should switch games just because EHM development has been halted. By switching to another game, we'd lose the fantastic community that I'm so proud we've built up. Simply because no-one has registered for a user account today doesn't mean everyone has suddenly lost interest; we often go days without a new users.
Sorry about the spacing. I did'nt mean to imply that people would suddenly lose interest. I agree with you that you have built a great community. That is the whole purpose of my post. You state that no-one has registered today for a user account. What about in six months.I like this community and would love to see it stay togather also. I am simply throwing out ideas on ways to do this. If EHM is not reborn we will lose our members as time goes by.That is why I thought a new game woud be a good rallying point. I will continue to play EHM but sooner or later it will become dated. Can it be played with Vista? This could become a new beginning for TBL.
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Re: Saving the Blue Line

Post by Stillblind »

The Senator wrote:Remember that no new members will be joining a site for a game that they can no longer buy.
Thats where the pirates come in.
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mark_htfc
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Post by mark_htfc »

Even though they a ceasing development I assume EHM 07 will still be available for download? Well I would assume so anyway. As if this was the case the older versions would not be out to buy still.

I can still see us getting more members to be honest as just because a game is not around no more does not mean people are not intrested.
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Post by Smetana »

The Senator wrote:Reguarding my last post you have the link wrong.Its www.Strat-O-Matic.com
I play Strat Hockey. I've been a Card & Dice man for almost 20 years, and I play the computer version as well. It's a quality game, very addictive, but it lacks a career play element, which puts it a big step below EHM.

I don't think we need to find a new game. Look at Tie Conn's F-Hockey site. There hasn't been an official update to EHM2G in years, yet that community is thriving.
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Re: TBL

Post by vocquat »

The Senator wrote: If EHM is not reborn we will lose our members as time goes by.That is why I thought a new game woud be a good rallying point. I will continue to play EHM but sooner or later it will become dated.
I think that the fact that the EHM serie will end with 2007 doesn't mean that the forum and the community will perish. I thnk it is up to us to continue developping EHM, build online leagues (some for the long run, some with a predetermined termination dates (1-year game, 5-year game, 10-year game)

Does anyone know if SI will be making the code source available, or at least a debugging mode so we can pretty much do anything? (editors are great but they can anly do so much)

Another idea, it would be great to be able to randomize player potential. Otherwise, it will become dull very fast. We all know what players can play and what players can't

Anyway let's go EHM
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Post by grazza »

I cannot see the source code being made available and I don't know many games that have done this anyway. Would it be possible to buy the source code or rights or whatever to the game. Granted at this time it would be far too expensive but in 5 years time or more maybe a more nominal fee would be acceptable. Never heard of a community buy out of code or a game so I really dunno if it would be feesable in the long term but one can dream.
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Post by Minstrel »

Thankyou all for your faith in TBL, we will continue to do our best for the community.

The best advice I have for people is to relax and let's see what the future brings, for now we don't feel a need to do anything drastic. We'll just keep on doing what we've been doing. Keep in mind a new version wouldn't have come out for another 9 months yet anyhow.

What can change in 9 months? Well... people can concieve and then give birth to babies for example. It's a LONG time. ;) So, suggesting we all abandon EHM which ceased development within hours is bit of an overreaction I'd say. The database is fully editable and knowing it was going to be shut down the EHM team really went at this latest patch in a more intent than ever way. Riz spent literally days at a time running games in the 2d tweaking them. As for player development issues? Well, they ran multiple games out 400 years to test re-tweaked development models for the new patch so I have faith that those issues will be resolved.

So, let's see what happens and carry on like we have been: playing, talking about and enjoying a kick ass game made by people who deserved better for people who've never had it so good from a hockey gaming standpoint.

Community is the key to keep EHM alive. You're all a part of that and I hope you will continue to be so for years to come.
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Stillblind
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Post by Stillblind »

I agree minty. I play GP500 which came out in 99 and there are still updates to the game quite regular from fans of the game.
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noctambulist
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Post by noctambulist »

I agree with Minty as well, no need to panic or do anything drastic. I just checked, you can still buy the game, I doubt SEGA would stop selling it any time soon if there are still potential sales out there. Plus, several game magazines have only recently reviewed the game with good marks. It wasn't until 2006 that I found EHM 2005 on a PC Gamer demo disk which got me hooked, many months after it had been released. I highly doubt that TBL will not get a single new membership. There are also quite a few people who have only visited the SI boards who might find this thriving community here and find a renewed loved of the game. As Stillblind said, there are hundreds of old games, many out of print that still have thriving communities, and if you really want to, you can even find many of those for sale legally somewhere. I still see Diablo 2 games on the shelf at Target and they stopped development for that game years ago. You don't know, they may even put this game for sale for $10 on Xbox Live or something, then look out.

I also don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that SI would release the code for the game, unless they actually plan on one day bringing back the series or selling the franchise to another developer. It's been done many times before, and they may do it here as well, but not until they've squeaked every last cent out of the game.

It's sad that no more EHMs will be produced, but heck, I haven't even finished my first full season yet, so I wouldn't need one for quite a while yet anyways.
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