Official NHL 2012 Off-Season & Lockout Thread

[bruins72]

I just read that the Islanders are officially moving to Brooklyn. Isn't that even closer to where the Rangers fanbase is than Long Island was? And wasn't there other places that would be better for hockey?

[philou21]

That's a weird place indeed.

[batdad]

Overflow for Rangers games. Place will be packed when Rangers come what 6 times per year? I don't see a bad reason in this. It is all good. Nassau Coliseum falling apart. Kansas City is not a viable place. Owners want Phoenix settled in KC, QUebec City, Phoenix or Seattle. Then go from there. I think that this is as good a place as any for the Islanders. Long Island was not going to work out....and this keeps them close to all 5 of their hard core fans, and opens the doors to Rangers fans as well. More likely to go to Brooklyn than to the Island for a game. Transit is better to Brooklyn, and its a new rink....mind you a small one....but this is the Isles not the Habs, Leafs, Flyers, Rangers, Canucks, Bruins, Wangs who have hard core fan bases.

[McQwak]

NBA's Nets moved from New Jersey to Brooklyn beginning this season. Apparently, Brooklyn seems like good sport market.

[Primis]

NBA's Nets moved from New Jersey to Brooklyn beginning this season. Apparently, Brooklyn seems like good sport market.

Brooklyn, like Winnipeg, can only seat like 15-16,000 for hockey IIRC, and with poor hockey sight-lines to boot apparently. So there's even more at stake for owners now with the CBA, since capacity crowds for these markets will be a good 4-5,000 shy of say Montreal (who can fit 20,000). Not all sellouts are created equal. If you wanted to know why owners are desperate to reduce salaries again in any way they can, it's because they've resorted to even going into smaller arenas that have even less hope or potential of good ticket revenue.

In other words, I expect this to end very poorly for Brooklyn and Winnipeg long-term.

[batdad]

Not totally correct Primis. They are not RELEGATED to smaller arenas. They in this case, and Winnipeg have CHOSEN smaller arenas for teams that were doing NOTHING in their larger arenas and were losing money left and right. The Islanders actually have the best TV Deal in the entire NHL for local market. It is ridiculous how much. Now...they will be charging a tiny bit of a premium to see guys like Tavares, Reinhart, Streit, etc etc play hockey in an area of the world that is HUGE....they will have extra $ based on this move. Is it ideal? No...Quebec City would be ideal in a 17000-20000 seat arena. But....it somewhat preserves the tradition of an organization with a great history. (Moving a team to a new city and changing its name that has won 4 Stanley Cups would suck donkey balls). This is a much better situation for the Isles organization than Long Island or anywhere on the market right now for a team except Quebec City.

Yeah the sight lines may not be great....but they are not going to be as bad as Phoenix. This is a good solid move the Isles will benefit from. Not a ton, but enough to give this once proud org a chance to survive and compete. Next step: Lose Snow.

[Satyr]

The lock-out has brought a NHL player to the Netherlands. Dustin Jeffrey was about to sign with Tilburg, but he went to Croatia. Tilburg turned to Vancouver, as Head Coach Barry Smith once was a Vancouver coach. Dale Weise decided to take the opportunity and played his first game last weekend. He scored in his first shift, at 34 seconds in the game. In his second game he had 1 goal and 5 assists, beating Eindhoven 3-10

edit: At this very moment he scores the opening goal against current champions Geleen, 1-0 at 12:00

http://www.ijshockey.com/programma/

[batdad]

SOunds to me like Dale Weise has found a place to play. Pretty sure most Canuck fans don't care if he ever plays for them again.

[Satyr]

Nah... someone has to drive the Zamboni, right?

[batdad]

That is a job share. Raymond and Ballard.

[philou21]

Funny how the media are trying to keep the hope on the fans high. On the RDS website they made an article that just mention "The winter classic is in danger!" Oh yeah? Really? Would've never guessed it. It's more than certain that there will be no season.

[philou21]

Seems like Simmonds got racism problems even in Czech Republic. People these days....

[McQwak]

Yeah, that was by some stupid group of people while their team was loosing (other team then Simmonds plays for). Management appologized for this and those people where kicked out of fan club. They can return their fan club season tickets with the whole price reward. Simply, the club doesn't want to hear about them any more.
Simmonds took it easy.

[Primis]

Not totally correct Primis. They are not RELEGATED to smaller arenas. They in this case, and Winnipeg have CHOSEN smaller arenas for teams that were doing NOTHING in their larger arenas .

Feel free to explain to me how less seating/less possible ticket revenue results in long-term stability for a franchise.

It only has 2 possible outcomes: 1) an eventual fight for new arena in a small market (like Edmonton) and threatened relocation if they don't get it, or 2) financial ruin if the economy turns around and other markets begin doing better and the small market can't compete financially... and again relocation to a bigger market.

It's very short-sighted and can only work if the economy stays terrible enough that even the bigger boys continue to have problems.

[philou21]

The way I see it Primis is simple. If Winnipeg for an example got 16 000 seats and they are always full, they don't loose money at all. If they have 20 000 seats and still 16 000 people go to their games, they lose alot of money because of the empty seats. When you are always expecting 16 000 people, it's easier to make a budget for the arena. (food, employees, cleaning the place etc....)

[Primis]

The way I see it Primis is simple. If Winnipeg for an example got 16 000 seats and they are always full, they don't loose money at all. If they have 20 000 seats and still 16 000 people go to their games, they lose alot of money because of the empty seats. When you are always expecting 16 000 people, it's easier to make a budget for the arena. (food, employees, cleaning the place etc....)

Empty seats aren't "lost" money. Unless you have the worst lease in the world, you are not penalized financially beyond the lost potential sale. Or if you're dumb enough to pencil in 41 sellouts as part of your budget, I guess (in which case you have much larger incompetence issues as an executive).

16,000 in ticket revenue is 16,000. If you can sellout 16k, you could sometimes sell out more even, and the upkeep/maintenance differences between a couple thousand seats are negligible aside from the initial cost for them. If that's your capacity (16k), you can't then enjoy the odd 18,000 or 19,000 crowd and extra revenue that brings when a star or rival comes to town, or when a playoff push happens. And especially come actual playoff time (when playoff home dates can make or break a team's financial season with not needing to pay players), that extra capacity of a couple thousand is a big difference. Given how poor the NHL's TV deals still are, it relies much more on ticket revenue than say MLB or the NBA. The NBA mostly could care less if people come out, that's why the NHL has been regularly beating the NBA at the gate annually. The NHL *has* to, they don't have the other lucrative TV, ad, and endorsement deals to fall back on.

What happens in 3 years when the Jets are still abysmal and say STH's aren't renewing to watch a bad on-ice product? With a smaller arena, you HAVE to sell out every date basically, because there is no cushion or buffer to help. Now imagine the US dollar also strengthens again in relation to the loonie, and it only aggravates the situation.

I'd like to see the NHL mandate at least 18,000 capacity to be a market and acknowledge its place. Unless the league lands a whopper of a TV deal sometime to spread around, there simply won't be enough revenue to keep a market with a small arena like that afloat long-term. It's about knowing your bread and butter, and for the NHL that's ticket sales/revenue. The gate is where it's at. To minimize your own ability at the gate is foolhardy.

[batdad]

Yes Primis ideally more seats is better. A city like Winnipeg will need a new building eventually. But for the time being it is CLEARLY better to have a team in Winnipeg with a smaller barn, than lets say a team in oh....I dunno...Tampa Bay with 220000 seats and NOONE going to the game. Which team makes money? Which team will lose money? Tis that simple.

And Winnipeg will one day get another new building.

Brooklyn is a way better option than an empty 20000 seat arena in KC. Again, only better option would be QUebec City...but cannot go there until they have an arena whose ceiling and walls are not crumbling.

Simple economics...16000 seats full is better than 20000 seats with 10 people. Ahem...your arguement is suggesting the team in Winnipeg should have stayed in Atlanta. You are slow if that is your arguement.
There are limited hockey markets that work. Winnipeg is one of them. Brooklyn in New York may or may not be. But please find me a better option for the Islanders....Not going to. That rink in Long Island is hated by everyone who ever played there in the last 10 years and all 10 fans that went. Where is the rink that is the better option? Nassau County turned down a new barn to be built...so time to go somewhere. Brooklyn is the best option. Never said it was the greatest ever..said best option.

Losing the name and tradition of the Islanders would suck so moving them to KC, Seattle, Quebec or anywhere would be no good. You never want to move a team that was a Stanley Cup dynasty. Brookyln is the option as can keep the name.

Sure 20000 fans in a 20000 seat building is better than 16 in 16.....but where is that market? Really....and again research the ISlanders TV deal...it is awesome.

If the US $ strengthens it strengthens. Good for it. Winnipeg will still be a viable market...because by then....

1. They will be better hopefully.
2. The NHL owners will have meaningful revenue sharing...which even then the Jets fans will likely still be buying Adam Oates left and right...they are as nutso as Raider and Packer fans. ...and Jets may be contributing instead of taking from rev sharing.

You are trying to argue against reality,and using what ifs everywhere. Reality is....Winnipeg is best place for a team, and Brooklyn was best option for Charlie Wang and Islse.

[batdad]

LOL and Happy Hallowe'en from Down Goes Brown


ON second thought maybe I should take that post back. Don't read it. Watch instead.

[McQwak]

LOL, Down Goes Brown is perfect. I laughed on this flowchart

[archibalduk]

LOL, Down Goes Brown is perfect. I laughed on this flowchart

Haha! I particularly loved the part that says if you miss the phrase "... and Toronto loses", watch literally any other sport!

[Primis]

You are trying to argue against reality,and using what ifs everywhere. Reality is....Winnipeg is best place for a team, and Brooklyn was best option for Charlie Wang and Islse.

I never said they should have stayed in Atlanta. Atlanta would have probably worked fine, quite frankly, if Don Waddell had not run them into the ground (though I still maintain Dany Heatley did his part to destroy it as well), Waddell was more the problem than the market. I remember in the 1990's when the IHL was in Atlanta with the Knights and they drew good crowds AND even had a freaking local TV deal to broadcast most or all games, but... the Knights also weren't a joke on the ice and even won a Turner Cup. It's amazing how people rip on Atlanta for having horrible pro fans, yet when do they ever have pro teams that aren't awful (save for the Braves' run, and they not coincidentally are a good draw)? The Hawks and Falcons are, save for single aberration seasons every now and again, regular punchlines on the field or court.

By the way... Tampa, who drew an avg. of 18,468 last year, outdrawing both the NYR and BOS and was 13th in the league attendance, can't get people to the games? If they'd stop having work stoppages and games lost to turn off fans, TB does just fine. What a poor, misguided example you chose. Last time they were defending Cup champs they lost their entire title defense season, then got their roster hacked apart. So of course it took a while for fans to not have hard feelings there. Let's see LA's attendance next season. It won't be very good...

The common thread between all these teams (NYI, PHX, ATL/WIN, and CBS) is that they have all displayed extreme ineptitude in the front office for extended periods of time, and their on-ice product as a result has been a laughingstock. It's amazing how a bad on-ice product for years and years eventually results in people not coming out to games. It doesn't necessarily have a thing to do with the market itself... and it will of course happen in Winnipeg too after some years of futility.

Anyhow, if the reality is that you take a bad/poor option because it's the least-offensive to your economic nose... then the NHL has real problems that only contraction is going to solve. Going into 15k and 16k seat buildings in sketchy markets is what has caused the NBA all its relocation problems as of late (Sacramento, Seattle's Key Arena, etc). You don't grow or strengthen your product by going into smaller and smaller buildings if you're already losing money, that's just plain stupid.

EDIT: By the way... What If's? And yet you just listed two uncertainties that Winnipeg's long-term success is mostly contingent upon, neither of which looks terribly promising (revenue sharing, and on-ice success). You made my point for me.

[batdad]

YOu know what I meant about markets. tampa drawing well yes...but have you researched how many of those are freebies, contest winners and giveaways? But yeah they do okay....picked the wrong sunbelt city.
Ineptitude is part of the problem for sure. But it is not all of it. Teams will NOT always be winners....and when they are not...they draw nothing no matter where they are save Toronto. Just ask Vancouver about the late 80s and mid 90s....after their two cup final runs....the team was terrible and barely survived even being in one of the top hockey markets.....so using franchise ineptitude is not really a valid thing. In the late 80s while Edmonton and Calgary were kicking ass in small markets...there was talk of Vancouver losing the team. Yeah...right. But it survived....

They are not going into smaller and smaller buildings on a regular basis. They are going into two smaller buildings in markets that matter...and will work even with the smaller buildings.

Winnipeg what ifs? Revenue sharing IS coming. It wass even in the last owner proposal as a start. So its not a what if. It is a virtual certainty. ON ice success is something that will of course eventually matter....but in Winnipeg not as much as say Florida or Nashville or Columbus. Jets fans are insane. So no I did not make your point, unless your point was that I was right.

Just accept the fact that the NHL is not the NFL and never will be. The league will never have that contract And if two buildings with less than 18000 seats (by a whole 2000) is going to cause you to believe the NHL is a minor league.....well then go ahead and stop being interested. Really not a concern.
NHL does just fine for itself as the #4 or 5 major sport....but it does need to get out of naff markets and at least find somewhat better ones. My belief is they have in 2 cases. Marginally with Brooklyn, but can you imagine the uproar about the death of hockey if a team like the Islanders moved out of New York area? Huge. Tradition would be smacked around...it would to some....sound the death bell for the game.

NHL is what it is, a great sport and the best players in the world. It is not the NFL (closer to NBA than it was in the day), and not MLB....does just fine, and people need to stop making it a BAD thing that it is not one of the other sports. Or just go watch the other sports and forget about the best game in the world.

Moving on now..

[philou21]

Tampa Bay got a nice audience because they now have a good team.....and one of the most exciting player in the NHL to watch, Steven Stamkos. Without him last season, no 18,468 avg. Another things that helps, this is a tourist market. People who goes to TB are usually from Canada or from the North of the US, which are great hockey fans. Better, they can go watch cheap hockey there compare to MTL or Toronto. I always had a smile when the Habs were in Tampa Bay and it looks like half of the crowd is Quebec people on vacations. I'm not saying that it's the only things that matters in Tampa Bay's crowd but I'm sure they can have a good 2000 more people per games because of that.

[batdad]

You know Canadian sports guys are struggling to fill their slots when they file a report on this.

No its not a rickroll. What do you think gang? Any interest. This is ridiculous.

[batdad]

THe Last Gladiator. A documentary about Chris Nilan. Sounds like a must see to me

Anyone seen it yet?