Unfaking Database (by Kidhander and co)

[B. Stinson]

One thing i would say on the matter of a changelog for a database update is that nobody would ever release an update if they had to document every single change they made. At a rough count there are around 90 data items per player. To document all changes would take forever.

I can see why there is a need for a changelog for software as it allows you to 'backtrack' if issues arise but for a database update i don't see the point at all

I have a feeling that what people want(at least, what I would like to see) is something that simply points out the nature of all the changes and where they were made(for example... which leagues have been renamed, which league arenas have been renamed, players in what leagues have been renamed, etc., etc.). I don't think anyone expects a document detailing every keystroke that went into the project, or even the "battle plans" that were used to build the whole thing.

The point of something like this would give us, the user, a chance to see for ourselves what we are putting into our game, and whether we want those changes having an effect on our gaming experience.

[Alessandro]

One thing that you have to understand is that the unfaking is not made by one user only. One can speak for himself, not for others, and one CAN NOT TRACK DOWN WHAT OTHERS DO. I didnt changed any rating, especially for NA leagues since i couldnt care less about them, twolf did not, i am sure johnny did not as well.

What we changed is pretty much everything was faked in the original version of the game minus some minor leagues arenas and some defunct arenas/leagues/teams, not for lackness of will but some obvious difficulties in tracking down data etc...

And i am still waiting for the proof for that ratings changed. I am yet to see one (i admit i only checked something minor here and there though).

[Alessandro]

The most likely reason that people have not provided information about changes is because of bad relations between certain people

because of a fear of the files getting into wrong hands that would use them for their own purposes.

To be 100% honest with all of you behind the unfaking, I think those are two really childish and selfish reasons for holding important info from the gamers who intend to download your mod.

I am surprised such a post comes from an user like you, stinson.

We worked for hundred of hours at the unfaking, you wouldnt want to get it stealed by the first guy that comes on the internet...

[Alessandro]

On the other hand, I still cant understand the "secretism" involved in the unfaking by some guys as I would be proud of saying everybody what I have changed in this proyect (being one of the most important proyects for the game togheter with the facepacks IMHO).

Where is the secretism? Read the sigames boards...

[Alessandro]

As for Javs' quote, I don't want to start on a personal crusade against one or several of the people who are involved in the Unfaking Project, but there's certainly one person you really can't trust whether they have or have not made any changes.

You can't trust me? Well, Riz and Graeme do trust me. Tell em i am "untrustable" if you want.

From past experience, we have been messed about by at least one person from that project - he's a hell of a loose cannon and hence why we've given up giving him the benefit of the doubt. Even another member of the Unfaking Project once told us he can't be trusted as to what he has and hasn't done. They refused to tell us what had and hadn't been changed - why would they do this if they'de merely unfaked things?

I am very sorry for our war and i would like to get into better relations with anyone but FOR THIS YEAR this project belongs to another website so you should care zero about what we did or we did not, IMHO.

Munky - we have considered doing something similar to the Unfake Project but at the moment we're so busy writing an EHM Guide, upgrading the site and giving support to new users, etc. that there just isn't time. Maybe in the future (ours would of course come with a full changelist).

Good luck

[B. Stinson]

I am surprised such a post comes from an user like you, stinson.

We worked for hundred of hours at the unfaking, you wouldnt want to get it stealed by the first guy that comes on the internet...

I'm not sure why it's suprising.

But anyway... as for the stolen work thing - do you really think your work is something that can be stolen? The real-life names are the same no matter what... so there could be 100 DB's out there, and they could all have the same info as yours does. And keeping that in mind, what's preventing someone from taking your final database, making a few changes with the editor(that everyone has access to), and then releasing that as their own? That would be a lot easier than "stealing" a simple changelist and redoing the changes listed on it. And even then, you don't have to list every single change you made to every single piece of data. A simple list saying which league's/team's attributes were changed(if any), which league's arenas were renamed, which league's/team's players you changed, etc., etc.

But that's all besides the point. I was never looking to rally for a changelist or your original "battle plans." I just wanted to give my 2 cents on the topic of why a changelist would be a good thing to have when releasing somehting like this.

[Alessandro]

But anyway... as for the stolen work thing - do you really think your work is something that can be stolen?

Use something without asking for the permission is a form of steal. And i experienced it in the past. Why would i want to get it redone?

A simple list saying which league's/team's attributes were changed(if any), which league's arenas were renamed, which league's/team's players you changed, etc., etc.

This is what i wrote some posts ago: "What we changed is pretty much everything was faked in the original version of the game minus some minor leagues arenas and some defunct arenas/leagues/teams, not for lackness of will but some obvious difficulties in tracking down data etc..."

I just wanted to give my 2 cents on the topic of why a changelist would be a good thing to have when releasing somehting like this.

I am okay with your request and i replied. But the fact is that i can speak from myself only, you can understand that is not that i can see if one of our coworkers changed a passing rating from 11 to 12

[Alessandro]

The real-life names are the same no matter what... so there could be 100 DB's out there, and they could all have the same info as yours does. And keeping that in mind, what's preventing someone from taking your final database, making a few changes with the editor(that everyone has access to), and then releasing that as their own?

There are some things in russian lower leagues that i am sure you can't get without being me or deeper "knower" of russian hockey. This is a good checker for me. Am i wrong? I don't think so.

[B. Stinson]

There are some things in russian lower leagues that i am sure you can't get without being me or deeper "knower" of russian hockey. This is a good checker for me. Am i wrong? I don't think so.

Actually, you kind of are wrong. Because I'm sure you're not the only one who knows that stuff. Like the Beatles once said - "There's nothing you can know that isn't known." So there are people out there who know what you do, and could easily take your DB and say it's theirs. And even if they don't know what you do, no one can prove that over the internet. So they can still take your DB and say it's theirs, and just claim they know enough to have made those changes.

And I'm not saying any of this to try and argue with anything... I'm just trying to point out that your final work runs just as much of a "theft risk" as the plans you used to create them do, so you're really not prevnting anything, other than the user's ability to determine if your mod is right for them or not.

[Alessandro]

There are some things in russian lower leagues that i am sure you can't get without being me or deeper "knower" of russian hockey. This is a good checker for me. Am i wrong? I don't think so.

Actually, you kind of are wrong. Because I'm sure you're not the only one who knows that stuff.

I've said that you have to be a deeper knower of russian hockey, not that i am the unique person in the world that knows that.

[Kris]

I'll have to agree with kidhander on this subject. I was involved in updating an other game and spend countless hours of getting the data up-to-date. Then one day the very same update (since I had made some changes that probably none else , at lest outside of my hometown, would know of, at this update included these things) was SOLD by some greedy little fool on eBay...

But there are nothing you can do.

[B. Stinson]

There are some things in russian lower leagues that i am sure you can't get without being me or deeper "knower" of russian hockey. This is a good checker for me. Am i wrong? I don't think so.

Actually, you kind of are wrong. Because I'm sure you're not the only one who knows that stuff.

I've said that you have to be a deeper knower of russian hockey, not that i am the unique person in the world that knows that.

... which is exactly why I said "I'm sure you're not the only one who knows that stuff."

[noctambulist]

The bottom line here isn't whether you've changed a players passing rating from 11 or 12, or really anything having to do with the changes you've made. The issue here is of transparency. Imagine if you will that SI were to release a patch for the game, but they said, "We made some changes and fixes, but we will not post any patch notes. You'll just have to trust us that we've made some fixes and some changes." You would be sceptical wouldn't you? You would like to know what fixes and changes they've made. On a similar note, if you got a pop-up that said, "Click OK to install XYZ.exe application" you probably wouldn't because you have no idea what it does. We are not accusing anyone of changing attributes or unbalancing the game, we are only asking that you release a change list so we know what we are installing on to our computers.

Also, your claims of keeping the change list secret to prevent theft is lame at best. Keeping it secret does no such thing. Kris's example of selling it on eBay could still happen. People could still take your work and claim it as their own. If people can steal it they will, and keeping a change list secret does not prevent them from doing so in any way.

You also say that we should take your word for it that nothing was changed other than faked items, yet in the same breath you say that you can only vouch for yourself and no one else on the project. Isn't this contradictory? How can we take your word when you cannot vouch for the honesty of your own project? Or is it because you who have worked on the project don't even know what was changed? If that is the case, how can you ask us to take you at your word?

All of these issues would be easily cleared up by one thing. Release the change list. Then we as the community can verify your work and we don't have to take anyone's word for anything. We can see for ourselves what has been changed and what hasn't. That is all we are asking. We are not accusing anyone of doing anything bad. We are only asking to know what we are installing on our computers. As they say in math class, "Show Your Work."

[TWolf]

You also say that we should take your word for it that nothing was changed other than faked items, yet in the same breath you say that you can only vouch for yourself and no one else on the project. Isn't this contradictory? How can we take your word when you cannot vouch for the honesty of your own project? Or is it because you who have worked on the project don't even know what was changed? If that is the case, how can you ask us to take you at your word?

I think people mean that there is general trust that exists between the creators, but if we get nit picky, all you can say is that you didn't do anything like change pass rating from 11 to 12. I'm certainly a fairly honest person and I believe that the others are too, but there is no real guarantee since there is no such thing as mind reading, nor does the editor create a log for keystrokes and mouse button clicks.

All of these issues would be easily cleared up by one thing. Release the change list. Then we as the community can verify your work and we don't have to take anyone's word for anything. We can see for ourselves what has been changed and what hasn't. That is all we are asking. We are not accusing anyone of doing anything bad. We are only asking to know what we are installing on our computers. As they say in math class, "Show Your Work."

Neil said it very clearly that there is no need for doing a very accurate change log for database update, since it would be just gigantic waste of time. Generally speaking I can say many arenas were changed to their proper names, many players (NCAA, Finnish Mestis, Finnish Suomi Division, Czech Extraliga...), some faked AHL players without a signed GLA etc.

I understand that people wish to know what they get, but I don't see need for accurate change log. The first edition of unfaking is supposed to be a generic data update from faked to real life counterparts. Then one can start doing "proper" roster updates that actually change attribute data if needed.

[Alessandro]

All of these issues would be easily cleared up by one thing. Release the change list. Then we as the community can verify your work and we don't have to take anyone's word for anything. We can see for ourselves what has been changed and what hasn't. That is all we are asking. We are not accusing anyone of doing anything bad. We are only asking to know what we are installing on our computers. As they say in math class, "Show Your Work."

I think a person who writes on the internet is able to read. This is what i wrote TWICE: "What we changed is pretty much everything was faked in the original version of the game minus some minor leagues arenas and some defunct arenas/leagues/teams, not for lackness of will but some obvious difficulties in tracking down data etc..."

[archibalduk]

Use something without asking for the permission is a form of steal. And i experienced it in the past. Why would i want to get it redone?

You own no property that can be stolen. Anyone can take the Unfaking DB and claim it their own work and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Why? Because it's the property of SEGA, SI, NHL, ECHL and all the other licensed leagues in the game. You have absolutely no right whatsoever to claim it as your own property. The leagues/teams/players/arenas that were unfaked are not your property. They are the intellectual property of their respective owners; hence why you don't own anything in the Unfake DB. Putting "Any use, reproduction or anything similar (including hosting) without permission from the author is STRICKLY PROHIBITED." has no force behind it because it's not your property. If one of the licensed or unlicensed leagues saw this then it could potentially have some interesting ramifications.

Anyway, that's a slight tangent. I just don't think you have the right to call it your property. I understand the DB was your work but it's not your property; your claims about worrying about theft are therefore greatly limited - as is requiring permission for its distribution.

What I'd like to have seen is a list of exactly what has been changed, e.g. what countries had their league names changed, which leagues had their player names changed, etc, etc. We didn't mean an entire list of which players, teams etc had been changed. We just want to know exactly what has been changed - in the previous Unfake you were very vague about what had changed (I'll check tomorrow for sure, but I think you'd said you'd "improved" the NHL player attributes "to make it more realistic"). As I just said, we just want to know what exactly has been changed.

[flea]

On the other hand, I still cant understand the "secretism" involved in the unfaking by some guys as I would be proud of saying everybody what I have changed in this proyect (being one of the most important proyects for the game togheter with the facepacks IMHO).

Where is the secretism? Read the sigames boards...

Why do I have to go there???
We are discussing this here, not??

As I have stated before, it seems that we all have overreacted in this matter and I also think this could all could have being cleared out pretty easy by simply posting a reply (as some have done it)....

Then again, I agree with Stinson here that we certainly dont want a detailed report of what u guys have changed but simply know if the rumours are true if there have been changed player attributes or not...simply as that....I havent asked for more.

Anyway, I dont want any bad blood with any of u guys and wanna say, again, thanks for doing the unfake.

Greets

[noctambulist]

I think a person who writes on the internet is able to read. This is what i wrote TWICE: "What we changed is pretty much everything was faked in the original version of the game minus some minor leagues arenas and some defunct arenas/leagues/teams, not for lackness of will but some obvious difficulties in tracking down data etc..."

Generally speaking I can say many arenas were changed to their proper names, many players (NCAA, Finnish Mestis, Finnish Suomi Division, Czech Extraliga...), some faked AHL players without a signed GLA etc.

So ... what exactly does "pretty much everything" and "etc." include?

Answer this and I'm happy. We have a good start here. No one is asking for mouse clicks and keystrokes, no one ever has.

And kidhander, the insult to my intelligence was not necessary. I'll assume it was only made out of frustration. I've been very careful not to let this discussion get to that. I respect all of you for your knowledge and skill in making these databases and all of your hard work, and I have not ONCE insulted your intelligence in any way. Let's keep it that way.

[Alessandro]

And kidhander, the insult to my intelligence was not necessary. I'll assume it was only made out of frustration. I've been very careful not to let this discussion get to that. I respect all of you for your knowledge and skill in making these databases and all of your hard work, and I have not ONCE insulted your intelligence in any way. Let's keep it that way.

Well okay, sorry if you felt (english) insulted but i was playing out of frustation like you said, because i posted that list twice and i don't like when people talks without apparently reading other things

[Alessandro]

I think a person who writes on the internet is able to read. This is what i wrote TWICE: "What we changed is pretty much everything was faked in the original version of the game minus some minor leagues arenas and some defunct arenas/leagues/teams, not for lackness of will but some obvious difficulties in tracking down data etc..."

Generally speaking I can say many arenas were changed to their proper names, many players (NCAA, Finnish Mestis, Finnish Suomi Division, Czech Extraliga...), some faked AHL players without a signed GLA etc.

So ... what exactly does "pretty much everything" and "etc." include?

To track the entire list down is impossible for obvious reasons anyhow, doing it out of my memory, the list should be something like that:

- All players in NCAA, Czech Republic, Swiss NLA, Finnish mestis and suomi division, United Hockey League
- Personnell in all that leagues plus Germany, Great Britain and Russia
- Arenas in all over the world, they are too many to allow me doing the whole list
- Teams names, competition names and, where possible, staff competitions in all precedent leagues plus France, Italy, Switzerland
- Some faked NHL/AHL/etcHL players without gla signed like Chipchura

Surely i am forgetting something.

[Alessandro]

Use something without asking for the permission is a form of steal. And i experienced it in the past. Why would i want to get it redone?

You own no property that can be stolen. Anyone can take the Unfaking DB and claim it their own work and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Why? Because it's the property of SEGA, SI, NHL, ECHL and all the other licensed leagues in the game. You have absolutely no right whatsoever to claim it as your own property. The leagues/teams/players/arenas that were unfaked are not your property. They are the intellectual property of their respective owners; hence why you don't own anything in the Unfake DB. Putting "Any use, reproduction or anything similar (including hosting) without permission from the author is STRICKLY PROHIBITED." has no force behind it because it's not your property. If one of the licensed or unlicensed leagues saw this then it could potentially have some interesting ramifications.

For the God's sake archibalduk...i am not a lawyer and never meant, wished or studied to be one. It's obvious that we are claiming like a "moral property" of the thing..................

[noctambulist]

To track the entire list down is impossible for obvious reasons anyhow, doing it out of my memory, the list should be something like that:

- All players in NCAA, Czech Republic, Swiss NLA, Finnish mestis and suomi division, United Hockey League
- Personnell in all that leagues plus Germany, Great Britain and Russia
- Arenas in all over the world, they are too many to allow me doing the whole list
- Teams names, competition names and, where possible, staff competitions in all precedent leagues plus France, Italy, Switzerland
- Some faked NHL/AHL/etcHL players without gla signed like Chipchura

Surely i am forgetting something.

This is more along the lines of what I'm looking for. So for example, Slovakian or Latvian leagues have not been done or New England High Schools like BBN, Thayer or Matignon. But maybe these do not need to be or are already unfaked?

So this leads me to my original question. Why can't those who have worked on this (who obviously know what they worked on), get together to produce a list of what they have done not too unlike what you have just stated here? I don't need every player or arena, just a general list so I know what has been done and what has not. Something in the readme.txt file would be great. Why is this so difficult when you have done so in part right here?

[inSTAALed]

Woo!

I can start my official dynasty game now!

Thanks kidhander, Javs and TWolf for all your hard work on this project year in and year out.

[Javs]

The bottom line here isn't whether you've changed a players passing rating from 11 or 12, or really anything having to do with the changes you've made. The issue here is of transparency. Imagine if you will that SI were to release a patch for the game, but they said, "We made some changes and fixes, but we will not post any patch notes. You'll just have to trust us that we've made some fixes and some changes." You would be sceptical wouldn't you? You would like to know what fixes and changes they've made. On a similar note, if you got a pop-up that said, "Click OK to install XYZ.exe application" you probably wouldn't because you have no idea what it does. We are not accusing anyone of changing attributes or unbalancing the game, we are only asking that you release a change list so we know what we are installing on to our computers.

Also, your claims of keeping the change list secret to prevent theft is lame at best. Keeping it secret does no such thing. Kris's example of selling it on eBay could still happen. People could still take your work and claim it as their own. If people can steal it they will, and keeping a change list secret does not prevent them from doing so in any way.

You also say that we should take your word for it that nothing was changed other than faked items, yet in the same breath you say that you can only vouch for yourself and no one else on the project. Isn't this contradictory? How can we take your word when you cannot vouch for the honesty of your own project? Or is it because you who have worked on the project don't even know what was changed? If that is the case, how can you ask us to take you at your word?

All of these issues would be easily cleared up by one thing. Release the change list. Then we as the community can verify your work and we don't have to take anyone's word for anything. We can see for ourselves what has been changed and what hasn't. That is all we are asking. We are not accusing anyone of doing anything bad. We are only asking to know what we are installing on our computers. As they say in math class, "Show Your Work."

Can I sence a bit of jelousy? Are you guys mad because we gave the rights to Eastside-UK?? We gave the rights to Eastside (mne2) because he has given us almost full control of the editor and gives us early beta versions to use so we can start working FOR YOU early. Eastside also fixes ALL of the problems that occur throughout the data process. If you cannot respect that we chose neil for the unfaking, then you should give your head a shake. It is nothing against anything any other website, but neil is the real back-bone of the unfaking because without him, there is nothing.

AND

To accuse us of changing attributes? That is low, real low... if you have no proof, don't go running your mouth.

AND

I would expect a little more respect/understanding from fellow testers of EHM and fellow updaters. I would think you would understand how much work is put into updates, and maybe now you can see the respect we have for neil and Eastside UK, so giving them the unfaking didn't take a 2nd thought.

If anyone wants real details on the unfaking, please log into the SI forums where Kidhander and myself are actively posting information and answering any questions you have on the unfaking.

Thanks to our supporters,
The Unfaking Team

[archibalduk]

We at TBL have absolutely no problems with you uploading your projects elsewhere. We've refused to upload KH's projects for months now because of all of the trouble we've had with him in the past.

As for rights, you have no rights - see my post above. Clearly if you don't choose to upload your projects to our site we're not going to do anything about it - we respect your choice.

In the past (i.e. EHM 2005 Unfake DB) you changed attributes: See this thread. Also, see this post by Kidhander: LINK).

A few weeks back, Minstrel sent you an e-mail asking what things you had changed and what you hadn't. We wanted to know whether attributes had been changed in order to decide whether to allow the use of the Unfake DB in our EHM Challenges. Clearly if attributes had been changed we'd have to ban its use because it would be not be fair on those that choose not to use the Unfake DB.

Anyway, I've had enough of all of this. Anyone that needs any help with the Unfake DB, please visit http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums ... 6461934525