1974/75: Nino's Rosters - Mario Lemieux as an 8 year old

[Richie Daggers Crime]

I too would prefer another solution for Isles/Rangers. It can be confusing, especially when reviewing drafts, etc.

Also, can't seem to find Tomas Jonsson (http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdis ... p?pid=2592).

[nino33]

can't seem to find Tomas Jonsson

He's not in the database.
Almost every historical European/Russian playing in Europe/Russia came from Pens66 1979-80 database...so the Europeans/Russians in Europe/Russia in the database are basically those who were in the NHL IRL in 1979-80 (plus much of the 1980 Soviet Olympic team)

I added very few players (IIRC mostly Czechs, like Dzurilla and Hlinka)...

Quite awhile ago I discovered through testing that Europeans/Russians are to easily signed by NHL teams (even if they have a valid contract, and even if they don't have an NHL Release Clause), and I pretty much lost total interest in further populating the 1974 db with Europeans/Russians.....I have many months of additional editing to do without worrying about adding further Europeans/Russians, so there are really no plans to add additional Europeans/Russians to the 1974 db at this time


Regards

[nino33]

Team names: personally, I'd prefer using the nicknames as the short name, but in the end it's your call!

I too would prefer another solution for Isles/Rangers. It can be confusing, especially when reviewing drafts, etc.

I checked on Manimal 4.2, and all the NHL teams use their nickname as the Short Name, so I've done the same

I wouldn't say things are "too defensive" - I've seen a number of blowouts so far in my new game, but these are reasonable blowouts, like Habs-Caps 8:0 and such. I'm about 50 games into the season, and so far it's looking like there'll be 6-10 100-point scorers, which is plenty more offensive than the standard/modern game!
The only thing I'd complain about - except that this is probably a hard-coded thing - is the lack of scoring from defencemen. Bobby Orr with 25 points in 50 games, in fourth place amongst defencemen? Potvin leading with 31 points? That seems ridiculously low!

Thanks very much for the feedback!
I agree that Orr/Potvin should be scoring more...I've added "do offensive D (like Orr/Potvin) have the right offensive Atts?" to my list of things I'm working on...







EDIT

can't seem to find Tomas Jonsson

He's not in the database.
Almost every historical European/Russian playing in Europe/Russia came from Pens66 1979-80 database...

Just have to say that Jonsson was a 1979 draft pick of the Islanders, and I'm surprised Pens66 didn't include him...so I'm thinking maybe he was in the 1979-80 db and somewhere over the last 2 years I accidently deleted him? Just don't want to seem like I'm "blaming" Pens66 for Jonsson's absence HaHa

[XenHL]

As far as the defencemen go, I'm not entirely sure it's something to do with the attrs... I mean, look at the numbers for guys like Orr and Potvin... so I'm thinking there may be something hard-coded in the "D" position that limits their scoring output. I'm not in the game ATM (my comp is a bit too slow to run both EHM and Firefox), but IIRC Savard ended up leading all defencemen in scoring with around 70 points.

As for the Europeans: I couldn't resist at the beginning of the game, I tried signing just about every Russian player; only Tretiak was willing to come over (which doesn't seem unreasonable; as I understand it, he wanted to come over to play for the Habs, but the USSR wouldn't let him leave. Then there's the phenomenal Doru Tureanu from Romania, to whom the Habs offered an immense contract, but he refused to go, fearing for the safety of his mother if he were to defect (a few years later he left hockey entirely, and in an interview a couple years ago he said not taking the risk of defecting to play in the NHL is his biggest regret)). All the rest were unwilling to move to a team in NA. We'll see what happens with the bunch who ended up drafted just now.

As for not putting more Euros in... well, sure it's a lot of work. But it may be worth it for immersion's sake, as otherwise the game will probably end up creating new players at startup (BTW, found DMITRI and SERGEI names), and with possibly higher attrs for Adaptability and whatnot... and the influx will eventually probably happen. That's just a guess, though!

I can understand the desirability of wanting to make it as unlikely as possible for Czech/Slovak/Russian players to come over, but western Europeans (Swedes, Finns etc), why not? The WHA was signing them by the hatful - that was the big turning point that started the influx, wasn't it?

[Richie Daggers Crime]

can't seem to find Tomas Jonsson

He's not in the database.
Almost every historical European/Russian playing in Europe/Russia came from Pens66 1979-80 database...so the Europeans/Russians in Europe/Russia in the database are basically those who were in the NHL IRL in 1979-80 (plus much of the 1980 Soviet Olympic team)

Gotcha. Since Jonsson entered the NHL upon being drafted, I figured he'd be in there, but that makes perfect sense. Thanks.

[nino33]

As for not putting more Euros in... well, sure it's a lot of work. But it may be worth it for immersion's sake

I can understand the desirability of wanting to make it as unlikely as possible for Czech/Slovak/Russian players to come over, but western Europeans (Swedes, Finns etc), why not?

It's the work (it'd be a LOT of work), and my desire to work on other things too...I really could let the 1974 database editing keep me busy well into next year! I don't want to do that...

I've already started on both a 1984 database and a 1994 database...I'm likely going to spend more and more time on the 1994 database, but I honestly don't know for sure

It's not "just about adding the players" - back when I was starting the 1974 db (2 years ago!) my testing/decisions indicated the "extra young" (below Bantam age) players require teams/leagues to be created too...I've worked it out, and it's creating 4 leagues in each country (at least Sweden, Finland, Russia, and the Czech Republic...so it's creating 16 Leagues, and the teams/players to go in them!)

I could also test just adding some Europeans/Russians (i.e. those that came to NA) to the North American "kids/minor hockey" Leagues...but my intention was always ideally a total/complete hockey world, and so I'd prefer to "do it right" and I've even actually got A LOT of work already done on adding additional European/Russian players....but I really want to work on something different!

I've got lots of "1974 db work" to keep me busy for the foreseeable future with the continued/already planned editing of AHL/CHL, Major Junior, and "minor hockey" players...and I now actually spend time doing other things!!! It's kinda sad HaHa 'cause it's still EHM editing - but I've actually got most of the “needed” (IMO) reference materials (i.e. Guides/Yearbooks/etc) for a 1984-85 database and a 1994-95 database and I've actually begun work on both databases!!!

I might add many historical European/Russians "in mass" (initially with only basic/minimal editing) "someday"...but realistically the best hope for "more Europeans/Russians" is likely a 1994-95 database (I really do "need" to work on something "different")



Regards

[nino33]

As far as the defencemen go, I'm not entirely sure it's something to do with the attrs... I mean, look at the numbers for guys like Orr and Potvin... so I'm thinking there may be something hard-coded in the "D" position that limits their scoring output. I'm not in the game ATM (my comp is a bit too slow to run both EHM and Firefox), but IIRC Savard ended up leading all defencemen in scoring with around 70 points.

Maybe...there's also a bunch of "hidden attributes" too (that you don't see in-game), and some of them connect to offensive output, and so I may be able to tweak things a bit more

I tried signing just about every Russian player; only Tretiak was willing to come over

IMO it'd be so cool if Europeans/Russians can actually be edited so they'll stay in Europe/Russian if you want them to

only Tretiak was willing to come over (which doesn't seem unreasonable; as I understand it, he wanted to come over to play for the Habs, but the USSR wouldn't let him leave

I'm not sure how reasonable it would be for 1974 HaHa...IIRC it was about 1981 that rumblings of Tretiak and Montreal began; Montreal drafted Tretiak in 1983, and apparently he retired in 1984 because he'd been promised that he could go to Montreal and then was told no

but western Europeans (Swedes, Finns etc), why not? The WHA was signing them by the hatful - that was the big turning point that started the influx, wasn't it?

IMO players like Hedberg/Nilsson in the WHA and Salming in the NHL were "pioneers" but the real turning point was the 1980s (the Cup winning Islanders/Oilers teams had talented Europeans!)

% of Europeans/Russians in the NHL Draft
1969 1.2%
1970 0.0%
1971 0.0%
1972 0.0%
1973 0.0%
1974 2.4%
1975 2.8%
1976 5.9%
1977 2.7%
1978 7.3%
1979 4.8%
1980 6.2%
1981 15.2%
1982 13.9%
1983 14.0%
1984 16.4%
1985 11.5%
1986 11.9%
1987 14.7%
1988 15.5%
1989 15.9%
1990 22.6%
1991 20.8%
1992 33.7%
1993 32.3%
1994 32.3%

[bruins72]

Since you mentioned a 1984 and a 1994 database, I just wanted to add my 2 cents. I would LOVE to see a 1984 DB.That would be the stuff I grew up watching. I started watching hockey regularly in 1982 or 1983 and was obsessed in the late 80's. I'd be looking to get Neely his ring!

[XenHL]

I'd be looking to get Neely his ring!

Of course, in the ideal world of simulations, that ring would be with Vancouver, since that Pederson trade never happened... right?

[nino33]

Greetings to all!

A 1984 database/1994 database is many MANY months away!
I suspect Christmas at the earliest, and likely not until next year!

The reality is it takes an enormous amount of time, and for myself I'd never want to release just an "NHL player update" as a database...

I've had volunteers to "help" already but the reality is that beyond "player history updating" there's not much I'd need/want much help with...the reality is I think I prefer to work essentially alone


Regards

[Richie Daggers Crime]

but western Europeans (Swedes, Finns etc), why not? The WHA was signing them by the hatful - that was the big turning point that started the influx, wasn't it?

IMO players like Hedberg/Nilsson in the WHA and Salming in the NHL were "pioneers" but the real turning point was the 1980s (the Cup winning Islanders/Oilers teams had talented Europeans!)

This is why think it would be good to put those players drafted from '76-79 (like Tomas Jonsson) into the database somehow, even if it's by fudging a little and attaching them to a Canadian junior team, if you don't want to tackle overhauling the Euro leagues (which I agree would be kind of a waste for a NHL-centric DB, not to mention super time consuming). There's not that many that made an impact, yet the ones that did are important players.

[bruins72]

I'd be looking to get Neely his ring!

Of course, in the ideal world of simulations, that ring would be with Vancouver, since that Pederson trade never happened... right?

Bleh! No way! Neely is a Bruin. He was born to be a Bruin!

[nino33]

This is why think it would be good to put those players drafted from '76-79 (like Tomas Jonsson) into the database somehow, even if it's by fudging a little and attaching them to a Canadian junior team, if you don't want to tackle overhauling the Euro leagues (which I agree would be kind of a waste for a NHL-centric DB, not to mention super time consuming). There's not that many that made an impact, yet the ones that did are important players.

Actually I think you'll find most are in the database...Tomas Jonsson may have been drafted in 1979 but her didn't join the Islanders until 1981 - 1981 is seven years after start-up! I think regens will be playing such a part by then I'm not stressing over a handful of historical players that should show up in the NHL many years after start-up

There's MONTHS of additional editing to do on the players already in the 1974 database!
And there's time consuming things (like height/weight and CA development testing) that are far more important...
And I want to do something different!!!
So I'm NOT looking to add additional Europeans/Russians..sorry






EDIT
P.S. I think Esa Tikkanen’s missing too…..If it turns out Jonsson/Tikkanen are the only missing Europeans I’ll for sure add them both in!! I think you’ll find most that “made an NHL impact” IRL from 1974 to the early 1980s are in the 1974 database! Guys like Stefan Persson, Thomas Gradin, Kent Nilsson, Lars Lindgren, Pelle Lindberg, Markus Mattsson, Jari Kurri and more are all there!

[nino33]

FYI I just want everyone to know the “European/Russian issues” are NOT something I’m uncaring/flippant about…as an old guy that remembers hockey from before most of you were born HaHa, as a kid I completely idolized and romanticized European/Russian hockey of the 1970s…and I had really looked forward to playing as European/Russian teams in European/Russian Leagues

I just wanted to make it clear that while perhaps my disappointment might be a little different than some (I still don’t want a European/Russian invasion of the NHL many many years before it actually happened), I too am unhappy that there are not more Europeans/Russians in the 1974 database! If we get an EHM Updater for 2005 I'll revisit the issue for sure




1974 db HELP REQUEST
If anyone is interested/willing, I’d love to attach more player history to the historical players in the 1974 database, and anyone’s efforts to compile any of this (for input via the EHM Updater) would be greatly appreciated! If you’re interested/willing please let me know! …basically only those who start on an NHL team have player history, and then they have only NHL/WHA history – so none of the NHLers have Minor Pro/Major Junior player history & none of the Minor Pro players (AHL/CHL), Major Junior players (WHL-OHL-QMJHL) or College players have any player history at all




On another note - I’m pleased to see some interest in the 1984 database! I already knew of interest in the 1994 database!…I’m kinda working on a few different EHM editing projects concurrently and I’m just “letting it happen naturally” at this point, and I’m “working on whatever it is I feel like” at the given time (still mostly 1974 db work) - I'll see where I end up in a month or two!…I myself really like the idea of a 1984 database (I was just 17 in 1984)



Regards

[pens66]

Since my name was raised a couple of times I thought I could make a little statement

I did in fact include Tomas Jonsson in my 79-80 database. However, I failed to give him NHL rights (with the Islanders) and draft information. He's a free agent in my database. A mistake on my part...

Scoring of "super blueliners":
I had trouble with this in my database, as well. There was no way to make Coffey score as much as he did. The goal-scoring actually isn't that big of a problem. You can have defenseman with 35+ goals, but it's the assists. I simply can't make them pick up assists as much as I'd like. Someone at hfboards posted screenshots of an all-star defenseman of his who put up 80+ assists for multiple seasons. But I have thus far failed to reproduce that on a regular basis. Even in the high-scoring environment of my 80s database. I believe I once had Coffey score over 90 points, but he was riding shotgun with Mario Lemieux and Brett Hull, who combined for 130 goals and had 157 points each.
By the way, in a current test game with the 1974 database Brad Park has 45 points after 40 games. I am the Bruins and I have three forwards with 81, 72 and 62 points after 40 games. Bobby Orr has only 40 points in 40 games and Gary Doak actually has more assists (27) than Orr (25)!!! I think it has something to do with my powerplay settings. But it's the only way I know to make my PP work. Orr has only half the PP points then Hodge or Esposito have...

[nino33]

I did in fact include Tomas Jonsson in my 79-80 database. However, I failed to give him NHL rights (with the Islanders) and draft information. He's a free agent in my database. A mistake on my part...

I thought he was probably there at the start!...somewhere over the last two years I've deleted him! I think he may have been part of a group of young Europeans/Russians that I deleted as at the time (and still) I hadn't figured out "where to put them in 1974" (i.e. Jonsson's hockey db career starts in 1977)

Scoring of "super blueliners":
I had trouble with this in my database, as well.

I'm not giving up yet!
I think I learned/relearned so much about Attributes recently...IIRC there are 51 different attributes, and so there's easily 10-20 that are (IMO) critical to producing an offensive D - worth further review for sure! Maybe the results in the 1974 db 1.1 will be better

ALSO I avoided "maxing out" Attributes previously (including OFF Role), and that may play a factor too...
AND I’ve also edited significantly edited the team/coaching styles (looking to create the more defensive hockey style of the era), and that too may play a part...

[Primis]

I think the d-man thing is very true.

Playing as DET in the 74 DB my top scoring d-man is Thommie Bergman with only 31A in 67 GP despite my team already having 4 guys with over 30 goals (Dionne is at the top with 39, Danny Grant is next with 34). And I'm running the infamous Slapshot tactics which tend to inflate offensive numbers a bit (though not as much as they could I guess).

My guess is that the game just does not run offense through the d-men or point much, so the assists mainly go to forwards. I bet that there is something you can do tactically to force the d-men to get more touches (and thus more chances at assists), but... I don't know that it can be compensated for otherwise.

It's funny. The freeware EHM has the exact opposite problem: too many mediocre d-men can score way too many points.

[nino33]

Playing as DET in the 74 DB my top scoring d-man is Thommie Bergman with only 31A in 67 GP

HaHa That's funny to me!
I get your point, I really do...but IRL Bergman only had 44 assists (and 65 points) in 245 NHL games...so at 0.27 ponts per game on average he should have "only" 18 total points for you!


I actually tried to severely reduce overall scoring from D, as few defensive back then were offensive...to me it seems maybe I didn't do a good enough job! HaHa (Orr was the exception...Orr was special in a way unheard of in the modern game - think maybe Hasek...someone who's completely different and completely successful - Orr was really special...I'd say in many ways think a combination of everything Nick Lidstrom was and everything Alex Ovechkin is combined! Even today after all these years few D have EVER been "like Orr" - IMO Coffey's the only other D truely in the same category...and Orr was tough as nails and would fight too!)

[Primis]

Playing as DET in the 74 DB my top scoring d-man is Thommie Bergman with only 31A in 67 GP

HaHa That's funny to me!
I get your point, I really do...but IRL Bergman only had 44 assists (and 65 points) in 245 NHL games...so at 0.27 ponts per game on average he should have "only" 18 total points for you!

Yeah I know. My point was the game's assist distribution is just slanted heavily to forwards. Bergman, given the amount of scoring my team is doing, should have more than that as a member of my 1st pairing. Heh, I realize I'm already warping history.

Honestly, to me I have no frame of reference to the time period. I was not born yet in 1974, and as I've said before a lot of guys from the 1979 DB were still around and I saw them play later. Not so for the 1974 DB. It's still the "Dark Ages" to me, the NHL of the 1970's. I didn't start watching and remembering hockey until around 1984 I guess.

It's really too bad a 50's or 60's mod just isn't possible (Or is it? Would it be possible to utilize another league as the Original Six and premier league?)

[nino33]

It's really too bad a 50's or 60's mod just isn't possible (Or is it? Would it be possible to utilize another league as the Original Six and premier league?)

Alas as my experience with Europeans/Russians shows, the NHL "rules" in EHM so even if you could find a 6 team League to use I don't think it'd really be workable/playable

[nino33]

Honestly, to me I have no frame of reference to the time period. I was not born yet in 1974, and as I've said before a lot of guys from the 1979 DB were still around and I saw them play later. Not so for the 1974 DB. It's still the "Dark Ages" to me, the NHL of the 1970's. I didn't start watching and remembering hockey until around 1984 I guess.

Ha!Ha! Don't forget, 1984 IRL is 2016 in the 1974 db! So for you more familiarity is coming!

[Manimal]

I did in fact include Tomas Jonsson in my 79-80 database. However, I failed to give him NHL rights (with the Islanders) and draft information. He's a free agent in my database. A mistake on my part...

I thought he was probably there at the start!...somewhere over the last two years I've deleted him! I think he may have been part of a group of young Europeans/Russians that I deleted as at the time (and still) I hadn't figured out "where to put them in 1974" (i.e. Jonsson's hockey db career starts in 1977)

You shouldnt use hockeydb when it comes to Europeans. Eliteprospects.com is the best site for that.
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=1455
Tomas Jonsson played for Falu IF in 1974. A 14 year-old in a men's league!

[bruins72]

I'm looking at my final news item about the top three ranked players in the various Canadian junior drafts. Pierre Lacroix is in the top three for two different drafts. I don't believe it's a duplicate of the same player because everything is identical, including his stats for the season. He's just eligible to be drafted in two leagues (OHL and QMJHL). I don't see him in the WHL draft, probably because of the age difference (WHL drafting younger). I think this might relate to his place of birth being empty. It's got his nationality as both CAN and FRA but no Place of Birth. Is this going to cause any problems?

[Manimal]

I'd be looking to get Neely his ring!

Of course, in the ideal world of simulations, that ring would be with Vancouver, since that Pederson trade never happened... right?

Bleh! No way! Neely is a Bruin. He was born to be a Bruin!

Doesn't matter where he'll play. Ulfie will get his knees anyway !

[nino33]

You shouldnt use hockeydb when it comes to Europeans. Eliteprospects.com is the best site for that.

The link Richie Daggers Crime used above was to hockey db