EHM1 Regen Testing (2016)

Post by **Alessandro** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:34 pm

nino33 wrote:
Alessandro wrote:Your tests are great, but somehow also the quality tests should be considered, not only the quantity ones.
I don't understand....what's a "quality test" and what's a "quantity test" and how are they different/what is considered in each?

I mean, "quantity test" is saying X players of CA > 100 are playing in Y league
"quality test" is saying Ivan Ivanov is playing here but should play here. It's more analysis than research, probably

I hope I am clear.

Post by **nino33** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:18 pm

Primis wrote:Important question here now: do the players exported with the Assisstant include the fake, grayed-out players the game itself creates for one game as fill-ins? Could those be affecting the averages on the low end?

The issue of such low CA players has always existed IMO, doesn't surprise me at all....but the question's still a good one! As there can be low CA players (which I've seen happening for years) and still be grayed-out players

The EHM Assistant says there's 51,186 players while a Player Search ingame shows 25,714 players found...but before we can go "ah-ha!"

I start with a list of 1 CA players, search thirteen in a row and they're all there
I search for the "worst player in the world" HaHa, a 1 CA 1 PA player named Likit Dahlgren and he's there
I search for all of the worst NHLers (CAs in the 50-79 range) and all thirteen are there
every player listed in the EHM Assistant has an "ID Number"
MOST IMPORTANT the starting database has 42,552 players, and the game adds 8,000 players at startup if you check nothing
checked the database at startup (2015) and it lists 17,385 players found in the Player Search

So IMO they're definitely all real players, and the Player Search function in EHM definitely doesn't list all players

Post by **nino33** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:26 pm

Alessandro wrote:
nino33 wrote:
Alessandro wrote:Your tests are great, but somehow also the quality tests should be considered, not only the quantity ones.
I don't understand....what's a "quality test" and what's a "quantity test" and how are they different/what is considered in each?
I mean, "quantity test" is saying X players of CA > 100 are playing in Y league
"quality test" is saying Ivan Ivanov is playing here but should play here. It's more analysis than research, probably
I hope I am clear.

Thanks! I get it now

Post by **Primis** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:39 pm

nino33 wrote:So IMO they're definitely all real players, and the Player Search function in EHM definitely doesn't list all players

Is the discrepancy (at least in part) that the younger players are "there" in the DB for the data to be scraped by the Assistant, but you can't "see' them in-game?

I had never really considered it before, but since the Assistant is scraping data from the game memory rather than pulling data from the DB (from what I can tell/know) I thought that might result in some discrepancies. I also know at one point the Assistant wasn't showing all the players in the game for everyone (multiple people complained about this IIRC, myself included. This included things like the Assistant not being able to show obvious notables like McDavid). I'm *guessing* this got sorted out eventually as I haven't seen people continue to mention it.

This then of course begs the question of how the fake players appear "differently" in the memory for the Assistant to not be scraping them. I suppose I could test this myself if I can get the Assistant working again though.

*a few minutes pass*

OK well cool, the Assistant works for me again after months of not. Weird. Anyhow, I did a quick and dirty test: I went to my current 1998 DB game, looked on my ECHL affiliate to find gray fake names, and searched for them in the Assistant, and they could not be found. I then tried a few other ECHL teams and their fake gray names, and they could not be found either. So that seems pretty convincing.

At least that's one possibility we can chalk off. That's not contaminating the tests.

Post by **nino33** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:07 pm

Primis wrote:This then of course begs the question of how the fake players appear "differently" in the memory for the Assistant to not be scraping them.

My guess would be "grey players" don't have an ID Number

Post by **nino33** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:32 pm

Some more examples of how the game struggles to creates on it's own; I really thought this was known and known well, but maybe that's because I've done so many different tests and looked at so many results, and I rarely if ever had specific things I was looking for.....I let the data speak for itself (and so maybe got a bigger picture/better understanding of the norms and limitations)

I'm working on the underdatabase for the 1974 database, which means first I deleted everything in (a copy of) the 1974 database & then I use that blank database to start a new game, and check off every available box to add players/staff - so the entire database is created by the game

Then I go through each team and keep or delete accordingly
The players I delete are those I've got real players for - so I've got examples of "what the game creates"

Here's some examples of the quality of player that the game creates with a blank database

Adirondack Red Wings (ECHL) - 17 players, CA average 15.2 (CA range 1-34); PA average 52.4 (PA range 10-95)
AIK (SHL) - 17 players, CA average 11.9 (CA range 1-52); PA average 49.8 (PA range 10-115)
Amarillo Wranglers (ECHL) - 17 players, CA average 13.2 (CA range 1-45); PA average 42.5 (PA range 10-112)
Amos Forestiers (QMJHL) - 10 players, CA average 16.9 (CA range 5-49); PA average 44.6 (PA range 10-121)
Atlanta Flames (NHL) - 17 players, CA average 17.2 (CA range 3-59); PA average 48.1 (PA range 10-114)
Baltimore Clippers (AHL) - 17 players, CA average 12.9 (CA range 1-41); PA average 39.1 (PA range 10-91)
Barrie Colts (OHL) - 9 players, CA average 20.9 (CA range 7-53); PA average 57.4 (PA range 15-119)
Belleville Bulls (OHL) - 6 players, CA average 26.3 (CA range 5-57); PA average 70.0 (PA range 17-125)
Billings Bighorns (WHL) - 6 players, CA average 15.2 (CA range 2-33); PA average 49.7 (PA range 15-106)
Birmingham Bulls (NHL) - 17 players, CA average 13.4 (CA range 1-41); PA average 48.9 (PA range 10-90)
Boston Bruins (NHL) - 17 players, CA average 13.6 (CA range 1-45); PA average 46.2 (PA range 10-99)
Brandon Wheat Kings (WHL) - 5 players, CA average 20.4 (CA range 3-34); PA average 66.0 (PA range 17-107)
Brynäs IF (SHL) - 17 players, CA average 13.2 (CA range 1-54); PA average 51.9 (PA range 10-119)
Buffalo Sabres (NHL) - 17 players, CA average 7.0 (CA range 1-22); PA average 41.4 (PA range 10-114)
Calgary Cowboys (NHL) - 17 players, CA average 12.8 (CA range 1-40); PA average 45.5 (PA range 10-126)
California Seals (NHL) - 17 players, CA average 13.6 (CA range 2-40); PA average 50.8 (PA range 10-126)

FYI - the data from above was recently obtained using the current version of EHM

The highest CA worldwide is 78 - the highest CA in the NHL is 68, CA average of the NHL is 14.7.....59 players with a CA of 1, 39 players with a CA of 2, 39 players with a CA of 3, etc (and for PA the NHL average is 51.3, with a range of 10-130)

In the past when I did such testing with EHM07 it was very clear that EHM07 NEVER created NHL caliber players, but that is not the case with the new EHM! For PA there are 2 players in the 190-199 range, 7 players in the 180-189 range, 45 players in the 170-179 range, 60 players in the 160-169 range and 118 players in the 150-159 range

In total the blank database produced 232 players with a PA of 150-200
Looking at TBL 8.2 and adding all players with a 150-200 PA plus all -10 and -9 players totals 287 players (and with some -15, -14 and -8 players getting a PA of 150+ this number would be a bit higher ingame)

EDIT - corrected CA to read PA

Post by **Alessandro** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:03 pm

How could you do not present me with a KHL team, darn you!

Post by **nino33** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 11:18 pm

Alessandro wrote:How could you do not present me with a KHL team, darn you!

Oops!

It wasn't on purpose!

I just took a look and.....the blank 1974 database didn't create any KHL (Russian Elite League) players! I'm guessing because with the 2006 rule set the Russian Leagues are not playable

Starting with a blank/empty database I checked off at startup
- Add Key Staff
- Add Players to Playable Teams
- Add Extra Junior Players
- Add Players to National Team Pools

This created Russian players for the National Team, as there's 125 players with Russia as First Nation.....they are all age 20-23 and they are all Free Agents, and they have a CA average of 4.1 (CA range 1-16); PA average is 30.6 (PA range 10-60)

This also created 162 Russian Junior players with Russia as First Nation.....they are all age 13-18 and they are all in the Russian Junior League, and they have a CA average of 20.8 (CA range 4-70) and a PA average of 59.4 (PA range 10-177).....five players have a PA of 151-177, eleven players have a PA of 120-150, fourteen players have a PA of 100-149

P.S. In the actual database there's 198 real players with Russia as First Nation in the database, with 121 of them being in the Russian Elite League (Gusev, Kharlamov, Maltsev, Mikhailov, Petrov, Tretiak, Vasiliev, Yakushev and more!)

And when the next version of the 1974 database is released there'll be LOTS more real players from all the hockey countries, as I've done the work to get all the players that are "missing" to get me from 1974-1998 & I'll be able to use the 1998 database players from 1998-current

Post by **nino33** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:42 am

Here's the results from Test 3 (only Junior Players added) at startup
.

Special thanks to Primis for simming/providing the test save!

PA at startup - Birth Years 1976-2005

BIRTH YEAR	1996	1997	1998	1999	2000	2001	2002	2003	2004	2005
PA Range/Player Age	18-19	17-18	16-17	15-16	14-15	13-14	12-13	11-12	10-11	9-10
190-200	1	3	1	1	0	0	0	1	0	0
180-189	1	2	1	2	1	4	2	0	0	0
170-179	3	4	11	6	22	18	9	1	0	0
160-169	5	6	12	12	22	20	6	0	0	0
150-159	12	12	18	23	48	54	17	3	3	2
140-149	5	7	13	10	26	35	10	3	2	1
130-139	17	28	36	36	80	88	16	1	1	3
120-129	40	54	65	85	161	174	43	3	5	6
110-119	58	80	76	112	175	190	37	8	9	4
100-109	58	66	61	72	161	145	35	4	8	10

BIRTH YEAR	1986	1987	1988	1989	1990	1991	1992	1993	1994	1995
PA Range/Player Age	28-29	27-28	26-27	25-26	24-25	23-24	22-23	21-22	20-21	19-20
190-200	0	1	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
180-189	1	0	1	2	2	0	0	0	1	1
170-179	3	2	1	2	2	3	2	0	3	1
160-169	3	3	3	6	4	2	6	0	3	2
150-159	4	5	10	6	6	7	9	9	7	6
140-149	10	10	5	6	15	11	5	11	12	9
130-139	17	24	22	13	29	45	29	28	20	25
120-129	28	34	22	21	34	41	65	40	51	34
110-119	40	30	47	47	47	48	74	56	74	55
100-109	72	52	47	41	40	68	66	53	48	59

BIRTH YEAR	1976	1977	1978	1979	1980	1981	1982	1983	1984	1985
PA Range/Player Age	38-39	37-38	36-37	35-36	34-35	33-34	32-33	31-32	30-31	29-30
190-200	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
180-189	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	1
170-179	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	4
160-169	0	1	1	0	3	1	0	1	4	3
150-159	0	0	1	2	0	3	3	2	6	5
140-149	1	0	1	2	4	4	5	6	8	5
130-139	0	3	4	3	5	7	15	11	20	12
120-129	3	6	8	8	11	16	16	15	20	25
110-119	2	8	12	18	30	26	26	34	37	49
100-109	7	4	19	28	28	25	28	37	56	60

CA at startup by Nation - all players/ages

Nation & CA Range	Austria	Belarus	Canada	Crotia	Czech Republic	Denmark	Finland	France	Germany	Hungary
190-200	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
180-189	0	0	6	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
170-179	0	0	9	0	0	0	1	0	0	0
160-169	0	0	14	0	2	0	1	0	0	0
150-159	0	0	42	0	8	1	3	0	0	0
140-149	1	0	62	0	3	3	12	0	2	0
130-139	2	1	127	0	23	2	17	2	4	0
120-129	1	2	222	1	25	2	40	1	5	0
110-119	1	3	171	0	61	2	52	0	9	0
100-109	9	10	210	2	70	5	71	3	14	1

Nation & CA Range	Kazakhstan	Latvia	Lithuania	Norway	Russia	Slovakia	Slovenia	Sweden	Switzerland	Ukraine	USA
190-200	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
180-189	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	1	0	0	1
170-179	0	0	0	0	1	0	1	4	0	0	2
160-169	0	0	0	0	5	3	0	5	1	0	14
150-159	0	0	0	1	4	0	0	8	0	0	17
140-149	0	0	0	0	8	3	0	18	1	0	35
130-139	0	2	0	1	28	6	0	36	4	0	51
120-129	3	9	2	3	36	13	1	50	7	0	105
110-119	6	3	0	2	88	29	0	78	8	1	77
100-109	9	8	0	7	128	39	6	131	18	2	92

PA at startup by Nation - all players/ages

Nation & PA Range	Australia	Austria	Belarus	Belgium	Bulgaria	Canada	Chinese Taipei	Croatia	Czech Republic	Denmark
190-200	0	0	0	0	0	5	0	0	1	0
180-189	0	0	0	0	0	15	0	0	2	0
170-179	0	1	2	0	0	54	0	0	13	1
160-169	0	2	1	0	0	70	0	0	15	1
150-159	0	1	3	0	0	174	0	0	35	3
140-149	0	2	1	0	0	170	0	0	16	3
130-139	0	3	3	0	0	346	0	0	73	7
120-129	0	10	10	1	1	578	2	2	116	13
110-119	2	22	25	3	1	683	0	3	172	21
100-109	2	26	23	4	1	677	0	2	157	23

Nation & PA Range	Estonia	Finland	France	Germany	Great Britain	Hong Kong	Hungary	Iceland	Israel	Italy
190-200	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
180-189	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
170-179	0	18	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	0
160-169	0	23	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
150-159	0	40	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
140-149	0	48	1	4	0	0	0	0	0	0
130-139	0	106	2	14	7	2	0	0	0	0
120-129	2	193	4	36	23	3	4	3	2	4
110-119	4	238	6	53	25	3	4	1	0	5
100-109	3	225	8	71	30	3	4	4	1	9

Nation & PA Range	Japan	Kazakhstan	Latvia	Lithuania	Mexico	Netherlands	New Zealand	Nigeria	Norway
190-200	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
180-189	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
170-179	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
160-169	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1
150-159	0	1	5	0	0	0	0	0	1
140-149	0	0	3	0	0	0	0	0	1
130-139	0	2	9	1	0	0	0	0	4
120-129	0	8	16	2	1	1	0	0	11
110-119	0	15	15	0	4	4	3	0	16
100-109	1	19	24	1	2	5	0	1	23

Nation & PA Range	Poland	Romania	Russia	Slovakia	Slovenia	South Africa	Spain	Sweden	Switzerland	Turkey
190-200	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	1	0
180-189	0	0	4	0	0	0	0	6	1	0
170-179	0	0	8	0	1	0	0	19	1	0
160-169	0	0	8	5	0	0	0	31	2	0
150-159	0	0	30	4	1	0	0	62	2	0
140-149	0	0	38	3	0	0	0	50	8	0
130-139	0	0	102	20	1	1	0	176	8	0
120-129	1	0	111	52	5	3	1	274	33	1
110-119	1	0	231	85	3	0	4	382	46	1
100-109	3	2	258	88	10	3	2	349	79	0

Nation & PA Range	Uganda	Ukraine	USA
190-200	0	0	3
180-189	0	0	4
170-179	0	0	35
160-169	0	0	48
150-159	0	0	102
140-149	0	0	75
130-139	0	0	191
120-129	0	1	341
110-119	0	8	367
100-109	1	7	347

CA/PA at startup by League - all players/ages
The left hand side is all players Contracted To (so includes signed minor pros/juniors and is much higher than the number that "play" in the League)
The right hand side is the number of teams x 23 players, so it is reasonably representative of those actually playing in the League)

LEAGUE	Players	CA average	CA range	PA average	PA range	----	Players (23 per team)	CA average	CA range	PA average	PA range
NHL	1380	121.8	53-190	132.4	80-196	----	690	139.6	124-190	145.3	125-196
KHL	1224	86.1	12-168	103.2	26-168	----	644	108.1	84-168	118.5	86-168
AHL	252	80.6	45-124	93.7	56-140	----	527
SHL	371	102.8	30-135	113.4	80-183	----	322	106.4	90-135	114.9	95-183
HockeyAllsvenskan	322	77.1	25-110	96.8	58-158	----	322	77.1	25-110	96.8	58-158
Liiga	401	88.6	23-132	96.9	47-158	----	345	93.1	72-132	99.5	73-158
NLA	345	80.8	30-139	96.0	35-193	----	276	88.9	60-139	101.1	61-193
Czech Extraliga	448	83.4	20-151	93.4	32-158	----	322	94.7	70-151	103.2	73-158
DEL	352	84.5	30-138	102.5	36-150	----	322	88.4	50-138	104.1	65-150
Erste Bank Eishockey Liga	319	76.6	3-122	86.3	11-135	----	276	82.8	50-122	91.1	51-135
Slovakian Liga	268	71.8	2-135	83.7	10-156	----	207	79.6	60-135	90.2	64-156
GET Ligaen	231	67.5	26-110	79.7	42-152	----	230	67.7	34-110	79.7	42-152
Metal Ligaen	222	49.4	6-100	68.6	13-156	----	230
EIHL	216	60.7	10-125	70.9	19-132	----	230
EPL	192	33.3	10-75	41.3	11-95	----	230
ECHL	503	69.2	1-115	83.4	10-134	----	437	73.2	54-115	85.6	55-134
LNAH	165	62.2	11-109	75.6	19-117	----	172

LEAGUE	Players	CA average	CA range	PA average	PA range	----	Players (teams x 23)	CA average	CA range	PA average	PA range
WCHA (NCAA)	271	50.3	10-103	75.7	23-151	----	230	53.8	38-103	79.1	43-151
NCHA (NCAA)	31	42.1	25-55	69.9	45-96	----	161
Hockey East (NCAA)	330	50.4	17-105	86.0	28-159	----	276	54.0	38-105	90.5	41-159
WHL	531	56.8	4-104	83.1	10-178	----	506	58.0	25-104	85.3	26-178
OHL	509	63.0	28-128	93.1	32-188	----	460	65.4	45-128	96.0	46-188
QMJHL	439	50.7	5-106	78.4	10-184	----	414	52.9	26-106	81.1	30-184
USHL	323	50.4	10-75	74.0	21-166	----	391
J20 SuperElit	321	55.9	5-95	98.4	10-159	----	460
MHL	167	43.9	4-85	73.6	10-158	----	723
Fin A-Jr SM-Liiga	235	52.1	5-80	67.3	10-123	----

NOTE - I left the "right hand side" blank if the League didn't have excess players
NOTE - "found" 31 of 32 MHL teams, but only 167 players (I don't know why so few)

Post by **Primis** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:45 pm

It's hard to tell from the limited NCHA sample as to where they fit, but the WCHA and HE CA's look more in line with what I would expect in comparison to the Canadian juniors.

One thing I'm trying to figure out is if it makes sense or not for the USHL to have roughly the same CA's as Hockey East and the WCHA. The USHL is the feeder league for NCAA, after all. I'm trying to decide if say the presence of the USNTDP skews that higher or not.

Is there a way to do a side-by-side comparison of the CA's at startup with Extra Juniors vs Without? I don't see where you showed the Startup CA's by league in the previous test (unless I just missed them)? That's one big sections of your big UnderDB test, no?

I still am curious what the CIS looks like in all of this too.

Why is the SHL CA average so high? Is it because it's more fully-researched than say the KHL, and so less super-low CA"s dragging it down? I find it weird that the KHL is more in line with the CA avg for the Allsvenskan than the SHL? I obviously don't know a bunch about the euro leagues, but that one stuck out to me as unexpected.

EDIT: Typos.

Post by **nino33** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 7:12 pm

Primis wrote:Is there a way to do a side-by-side comparison of the CA's at startup with Extra Juniors vs Without? I don't see where you showed the Startup CA's by league in the previous test (unless I just missed them)?

I wasn't doing "by League" at first (Manimal asked for it), so that's why it may be missing

Primis wrote:That's one big sections of your big UnderDB test, no?

I don't understand...the underdatabase is not a test, it's a concept (and it already exists, with the 1998 database); I'll never release another database again without an underdatabase

Primis wrote:It's hard to tell from the limited NCHA sample as to where they fit, but the WCHA and HE CA's look more in line with what I would expect in comparison to the Canadian juniors.....One thing I'm trying to figure out is if it makes sense or not for the USHL to have roughly the same CA's as Hockey East and the WCHA. The USHL is the feeder league for NCAA, after all. I'm trying to decide if say the presence of the USNTDP skews that higher or not.....I still am curious what the CIS looks like in all of this too

I'm afraid if you want the level of detail you're looking for on the leagues you're talking about, at this point it won't be me giving it
I've got LOTS of EHM stuff on the go, and I don't think it's the best use of my time to look into leagues that I know haven't had a researcher (I'm interested too, but the "bang for the buck" just isn't worth it)

Primis wrote:Why is the SHL CA average so high? Is it because it's more fully-researched than say the KHL, and so less super-low CA"s dragging it down? I find it weird that the KHL is more in line with the CA avg for the Allsvenskan than the SHL? I obviously don't know a bunch about the euro leagues, but that one stuck out to me as unexpected.

Not sure about the comparison/details or if anything's to high....

Looking at the 8.2 KHL CA ratings ( quoted below)

28 teams x 23 players = 644 players (so whatever the exact number is, most definitely the 857 players includes many who are contracted to a KHL team but not necessarily playing in the KHL yet)
I don't understand why any KHL player would have a CA below 50 (or even 60)
if the goal is say a 110 CA average, then the majority of players should be close to that average (standard deviation), so about 420 of the 644 players should have a CA in the 90-130 range & currently in TBL 8.2 there 346 such players
in the KHL in TBL 8.2 there are 51 players with a CA greater than 130

nino33 wrote: Of the 857 KHL players in TBL 8.2 (CA average 86.4)
109 have a CA of 12-50 (12.7%)

271 have a CA of 51-80 (31.6%)

153 have a CA of 81-100 (17.9%)

322 have a CA of 101-168 (37.6%)

When you look at the data on the right hand side (without the "extra" players) you get CA averages of 108.1 for the KHL, 106.4 for the SHL and 77.1 for HockeyAllsvenskan.....So I think overall the actual KHL/SHL/Allsvenskan players seem pretty well rated (maybe Allsvenskan is a bit low/to many low CA players?.....are there really players in the Allsvenskan that are below Bantam level players?)

ALSO....and this is "my opinion" for sure - but the KHL/Russian hockey is overrated IRL in many people's minds IMO, and this maybe affects how they perceive things in EHM? EHM is "NHL centric" (which could probably be said about the real world too), and in relation to the NHL there are fewer Russians than Swedes (less than half as many in 2015-16).

Also....if you look at "best-on-best" tournaments, and accept the general European/Russian view that anything in North America doesn't matter/count, and you accept the general North American view that the World Championships don't matter/count, that leaves just the Olympics.....if you give 3 points for Gold and 2 for Silver and 1 for Bronze and look at the results since pros have been in the Olympics (1998) this is what you get

Canada 9 points
Sweden/Finland 5 points
USA/Czech Republic 4 points
Russia 3 points

While Russia is a threat to "blow out" anyone (including Canada), and they do seem to produce more Snipers than other Nations, IMO after that Russia is no better (and maybe worse) than most of the other "hockey Nations" over the last 20 years (I think the Czech Republic's likely at the bottom of the six listed above)

Post by **Primis** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 8:25 pm

nino33 wrote:I'm afraid if you want the level of detail you're looking for on the leagues you're talking about, at this point it won't be me giving it
I've got LOTS of EHM stuff on the go, and I don't think it's the best use of my time to look into leagues that I know haven't had a researcher (I'm interested too, but the "bang for the buck" just isn't worth it)

Naw. Again, it's just curiosity.

The game does what it does with no thought to some of the "logic" because it's not programmed to recognize that "logic". Heck, there are no actual amateurs at all in EHM, everyone gets "paid" via a "contract". So my suspicion has always been that both NCAA and CIS are never really handled well within the game because they don't work on the same logic and system as the rest of the game (and are kinda' shoe-horned in, in a way). Back in 2007 I explored ways to make both the NCAA and USHL playable (that was fun in a way), but even getting them "playable" didn't result in quite the right playing experience for either of them. The game is just not built with them in mind.

nino33 wrote:
Primis wrote:Why is the SHL CA average so high? Is it because it's more fully-researched than say the KHL, and so less super-low CA"s dragging it down? I find it weird that the KHL is more in line with the CA avg for the Allsvenskan than the SHL? I obviously don't know a bunch about the euro leagues, but that one stuck out to me as unexpected.
Not sure about the comparison/details or if anything's to high....

When you look at the data on the right hand side (without the "extra" players) you get CA averages of 108.1 for the KHL, 106.4 for the SHL and 77.1 for HockeyAllsvenskan.....So I think overall the actual KHL/SHL/Allsvenskan players seem pretty well rated

The right column is the user-created players, correct?

That's my point. The right side seems fine in its variance between leagues. The left side seems wonky. The difference between the left and right are quite large for the KHL (over 20 CA! That's quite big for a league at that level IMHO), but Allsvensken and SHL are much, much less.

I'm saying the game-gens are apparently messing it up, and I'm not entirely sure why, just quickly looking over the leagues. *shrug*

I totally agree that you should not be seeing the low CA's in most of these leagues. The KHL seems to be one of the the wonkiest of them, variance-wise.

RE: Russia, I'll dispute what you're saying, because KHL =/= Russia. IIRC, something like 55% of KHLers are actually Russian. There are high-level Swedes, Finns, Czechs, etc, playing in the KHL, along with good Canadians and Americans, etc, and that's further compounded by the non-Russian KHL franchises that are then composed almost entirely of non-Russians. So I don't see what Russian performance in the Olympics or WC's has to do with it. The KHL is no longer a Russian league, and only getting moreso, in a way.

So we should not compare or equate Russian performance in senior international competition to the level of the KHL.

EDIT: Durr, I can't seem to get QUOTE brackets right anymore, fixed.

Post by **Alessandro** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:00 pm

Thank you all for your observations. One thing with the KHL is that it uses old data. I am overhauling the DB completely (v 8.2 has none or little of my "depth" work), but it is a process that requires a lot of time, and unfortunately a day has just 24 hours. Now the KHL has a higher average CA (don't worry, me and Manimal are taking it under control

), however, this won't affect the problems the KHL "technically" has in the game (mostly, teams do nothing on the market, as it is seen by the degradation of the average CA), which need attention by our Riz.
Some of the "low CAs" you see in the KHL, well, they are probably low, but most of them are very young players with teams without a junior affiliation so they were set to the top team. All of this will be fixed/adjusted hopefully for the next version.

Post by **nino33** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:40 pm

Primis wrote:The game does what it does with no thought to some of the "logic" because it's not programmed to recognize that "logic". Heck, there are no actual amateurs at all in EHM, everyone gets "paid" via a "contract". So my suspicion has always been that both NCAA and CIS are never really handled well within the game because they don't work on the same logic and system as the rest of the game (and are kinda' shoe-horned in, in a way). Back in 2007 I explored ways to make both the NCAA and USHL playable (that was fun in a way), but even getting them "playable" didn't result in quite the right playing experience for either of them. The game is just not built with them in mind.

What you're saying might be true, but I myself wouldn't even attempt to draw any conclusions without the database starting with complete, researcher rated rosters (and AFAIK that's never been even close to happening with the NCAA/USHL)

For example, you said earlier "It's hard to tell from the limited NCHA sample as to where they fit" - that wasn't a sample, that was every player in TBL 8.2 in the NCHA!

When I look at the NCAA data posted so far what it tells me is the limited researcher time spent on it was most likely spent on Hockey East

That's one of the things I've been bothered about/getting upset about recently.....when people are commenting/criticizing and they don't understand "the reason/explanation" is so often simply a lack of researchers and/or researcher time, and nothing more than that can be attributed IMO until there actually are researchers

Again, I'm not trying to be rude! just truthful
And you're actually helping/I appreciate that!
But it still takes hours to compile the test data each time, so it was easy to get frustrated when it takes so much time/work and people that don't understand (and don't take the time to) make comments that simply aren't based on facts/reality & then argue and personally attack (which I'm NOT saying you are doing! not at all!) You're actually helping and most importantly you're actually seeking to understand, and that's fantastic (and it's why I'm trying to explain/give details)

I'm having a great day, I'm a "happy camper" & there's no anger/malice in my words

Primis wrote:The right column is the user-created players, correct?

No, the left hand column is every player contracted in a League (thus the NHL has 1380 players! an average of 46 per team!) & the right hand column is those players that are essentially actually playing in the league

Because the total contracted players includes so many "extra players" for many leagues I included the data on the right hand side, which I get by first figuring out how many teams are in the league (30 for the NHL), then I multiple the number of teams by 23 players per team (for the NHL 30 x 23), and then I sort the players by CA and take only those that are required to have 23 players per team (for the NHL, 30 x 23 = 690) - so the data on the right hand side is the top players by CA, and thus is a fair/reasonable representation of actual League data

Primis wrote:I'm saying the game-gens are apparently messing it up, and I'm not entirely sure why, just quickly looking over the leagues. *shrug*

I don't think you're understanding yet what you're looking at

The game generated players are the blank database examples I've given (of PeeWee/Bantam level CAs for professional!) & then when we get to 2035/2045 we'll see more game generated players.....almost everything you're looking at from "startup test results" and even "2025 test results" is from the database (in particular in regards to CA)

There's three tests currently being run/compiled/posted

#1 with no players/staff added.....the game adds thousands anyways, but few if any worldwide that would have an impact/show up in the data
#2 with all possible players/staff added.....while this involves adding players of quality, I don't believe the number of added quality players is large (CAs at startup between Test 1 and Test 2 to see any differences)
#3 with only junior players added.....for CA at startup I'd think Test 1 and test 3 would be about the same/the same, but for PA you'll see some additional quality players

When you add players (like in Test 2/Test 3) you'll see more countries with players above 100 CA/PA
Also, players under the age of 14 at startup are almost all/all game generated

Post by **nino33** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:58 pm

Alessandro wrote:it is a process that requires a lot of time, and unfortunately a day has just 24 hours.

Yes it does! As I noted above, I totally agree/understand

Alessandro wrote:Now the KHL has a higher average CA (don't worry, me and Manimal are taking it under control )

Speaking for myself, I totally KNOW you two have it under control

Alessandro wrote:the problems the KHL "technically" has in the game (mostly, teams do nothing on the market, as it is seen by the degradation of the average CA), which need attention by our Riz.

I actually heard from Riz today, and (not surprisingly) he's busy busy - but on his list of things to look at is this thread!
Also, the Test 3 2025 data I'm compiling right now seems to show the issue pretty clearly (I think it may be an issue of not enough quality Russian players are being produced...the data will tell us)

Alessandro wrote:Some of the "low CAs" you see in the KHL, well, they are probably low, but most of them are very young players with teams without a junior affiliation so they were set to the top team. All of this will be fixed/adjusted hopefully for the next version.

Yeah, that's what I thought...but IIRC a 50 CA is a Top Midget (age 16-17) and 70 is a Top Junior A (one step below Major Junior)...so unless they're 14 I think they'd rarely if ever be below 50 for CA

Post by **Primis** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:11 pm

nino33 wrote:What you're saying might be true, but I myself wouldn't even attempt to draw any conclusions without the database starting with complete, researcher rated rosters (and AFAIK that's never been even close to happening with the NCAA/USHL)

Well, to be fair, I've veered a bit off-topic there.

What I'm referring to has little to do with the DB. It's that the game is built around the professional models, and the junior models then are also attended to, but the collegiate system isn't even in there. So what I'm referring to more are game mechanics. I can make NCAA teams playable, but I still have to "sign" players traditionally. It would be nice if I could sign guys to 3 or 4-year deals, but at that low of a level guys won't sign for more than 2 years tops (and those even are hard to get). So you're completely turning over your roster every 2 or so years, and you never get the equivalent of an actual "senior" class.

In the past I've tried to figure out how to kludge some system in-game to force 4-year "contracts" or something, and to not allow trading and whatnot. The means just isn't in there though. I should maybe look into that now again with 1 though...

Anyhow that, more than anything DB-related, is what makes troubleshooting NCAA prospects such a pain sometimes. As Manimal said in the other thread, the career paths for American players really aren't represented in-game and it's maybe something for Riz to look into, but I don't know if it's very doable without majorly changing how the USHL and NCAA are handled in-game, as in having to add in their particular system(s).

nino33 wrote:
Primis wrote:The right column is the user-created players, correct?
No, the left hand column is every player contracted in a League (thus the NHL has 1380 players! an average of 46 per team!) & the right hand column is those players that are essentially actually playing in the league

Because the total contracted players includes so many "extra players" for many leagues I included the data on the right hand side, which I get by first figuring out how many teams are in the league (30 for the NHL), then I multiple the number of teams by 23 players per team (for the NHL 30 x 23), and then I sort the players by CA and take only those that are required to have 23 players per team (for the NHL, 30 x 23 = 690) - so the data on the right hand side is the top players by CA, and thus is a fair/reasonable representation of actual League data

Ahh, that's my bad then. I read the descriptions and I thought that's what you meant as the difference between the two "columns". I'm sorry. :penalty:

I thought you were comparing just the User Created players vs the effect of having Game Gens in, because I thought you were testing how the game generates players for the different levels -- both at game-startup, and then on down the road. I guess had I paid closer attention to the player totals in the columns, that would have maybe tipped me off that it wouldn't match up.

That explains why you kept going back to the values on the right side though, when I was more concerned with the left side.

Post by **nino33** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:44 pm

Primis wrote:I thought you were testing how the game generates players for the different levels -- both at game-startup, and then on down the road

I did recently do such testing at startup (results quoted below)...that's the "blank database" testing, where the database literally has 0 players and 0 staff and you click every possible option to add players/staff & everything you get is what the game created, and the results were the game creates AWFUL players (by CA)

This is why I think "for best results" the researcher created/rated starting database is key & that's why I think the game doesn't generate players well on it's own (but as noted in the quote below, unlike in EHM07 the new EHM actually creates NHL caliber/high PA players!); it's my belief in the idea that at startup "the game doesn't create players/staff well on it's own" that's got me thinking the underdatabase is such a good idea

nino33 wrote:Here's some examples of the quality of player that the game creates with a blank database
Adirondack Red Wings (ECHL) - 17 players, CA average 15.2 (CA range 1-34); PA average 52.4 (PA range 10-95)

AIK (SHL) - 17 players, CA average 11.9 (CA range 1-52); PA average 49.8 (PA range 10-115)

Amarillo Wranglers (ECHL) - 17 players, CA average 13.2 (CA range 1-45); PA average 42.5 (PA range 10-112)

Amos Forestiers (QMJHL) - 10 players, CA average 16.9 (CA range 5-49); PA average 44.6 (PA range 10-121)

Atlanta Flames (NHL) - 17 players, CA average 17.2 (CA range 3-59); PA average 48.1 (PA range 10-114)

Baltimore Clippers (AHL) - 17 players, CA average 12.9 (CA range 1-41); PA average 39.1 (PA range 10-91)

Barrie Colts (OHL) - 9 players, CA average 20.9 (CA range 7-53); PA average 57.4 (PA range 15-119)

Belleville Bulls (OHL) - 6 players, CA average 26.3 (CA range 5-57); PA average 70.0 (PA range 17-125)

Billings Bighorns (WHL) - 6 players, CA average 15.2 (CA range 2-33); PA average 49.7 (PA range 15-106)

Birmingham Bulls (NHL) - 17 players, CA average 13.4 (CA range 1-41); PA average 48.9 (PA range 10-90)

Boston Bruins (NHL) - 17 players, CA average 13.6 (CA range 1-45); PA average 46.2 (PA range 10-99)

Brandon Wheat Kings (WHL) - 5 players, CA average 20.4 (CA range 3-34); PA average 66.0 (PA range 17-107)

Brynäs IF (SHL) - 17 players, CA average 13.2 (CA range 1-54); PA average 51.9 (PA range 10-119)

Buffalo Sabres (NHL) - 17 players, CA average 7.0 (CA range 1-22); PA average 41.4 (PA range 10-114)

Calgary Cowboys (NHL) - 17 players, CA average 12.8 (CA range 1-40); PA average 45.5 (PA range 10-126)

California Seals (NHL) - 17 players, CA average 13.6 (CA range 2-40); PA average 50.8 (PA range 10-126)

FYI - the data from above was recently obtained using the current version of EHM

The highest CA worldwide is 78 - the highest CA in the NHL is 68, CA average of the NHL is 14.7.....59 players with a CA of 1, 39 players with a CA of 2, 39 players with a CA of 3, etc (and for PA the NHL average is 51.3, with a range of 10-130)

In the past when I did such testing with EHM07 it was very clear that EHM07 NEVER created NHL caliber players, but that is not the case with the new EHM! For PA there are 2 players in the 190-199 range, 7 players in the 180-189 range, 45 players in the 170-179 range, 60 players in the 160-169 range and 118 players in the 150-159 range

In total the blank database produced 232 players with a PA of 150-200
Looking at TBL 8.2 and adding all players with a 150-200 PA plus all -10 and -9 players totals 287 players (and with some -15, -14 and -8 players getting a PA of 150+ this number would be a bit higher ingame)

Post by **nino33** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:55 pm

nino33 wrote:
Alessandro wrote:the problems the KHL "technically" has in the game (mostly, teams do nothing on the market, as it is seen by the degradation of the average CA), which need attention by our Riz.
I actually heard from Riz today, and (not surprisingly) he's busy busy - but on his list of things to look at is this thread!
Also, the Test 3 2025 data I'm compiling right now seems to show the issue pretty clearly (I think it may be an issue of not enough quality Russian players are being produced...the data will tell us)

FYI - I usually send a summary email once the testing's done, so once we get some more/later date testing posted I'll do so (so key issues don't get lost amidst the data/discussions)

Post by **nino33** » Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:29 am

Here's the results from Test 3 (only Junior Players added) at 2025
.

Definitely some "interesting results"

CA at 2025 by Nation - all players/ages

Nation & CA Range	Austria	Belarus	Belgium	Bulgaria	Canada	Chinese Taipei	Czech Republic	Denmark	Estonia	Finland
190-200	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0
180-189	0	0	0	0	5	0	0	0	0	0
170-179	0	0	0	0	14	0	5	1	0	5
160-169	0	1	0	0	32	0	8	0	0	17
150-159	0	0	0	0	59	0	10	0	0	18
140-149	0	1	0	0	53	0	12	0	0	15
130-139	2	0	0	0	47	0	8	1	0	9
120-129	2	2	0	0	180	0	41	5	0	68
110-119	6	7	0	1	172	1	43	5	0	67
100-109	2	5	1	0	229	1	62	4	1	97

Nation & CA Range	France	Germany	Great Britain	Hong Kong	Hungary	Israel	Italy	Kazakhstan	Latvia	Lithuania	Netherlands
190-200	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
180-189	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
170-179	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
160-169	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
150-159	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	2	0	0
140-149	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
130-139	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	1	0
120-129	0	4	4	1	0	0	0	0	8	0	0
110-119	0	9	7	2	1	0	0	2	6	0	0
100-109	2	13	14	1	3	1	1	5	3	0	1

Nation & CA Range	New Zealand	Norway	Poland	Russia	Slovakia	Slovenia	South Africa	Sweden	Switzerland	USA
190-200	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	2
180-189	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	3	1	1
170-179	0	0	0	4	0	0	0	6	0	10
160-169	0	0	0	5	1	0	0	12	2	12
150-159	0	1	0	12	1	0	0	26	0	33
140-149	0	0	0	18	2	0	0	27	3	29
130-139	0	0	0	13	3	0	0	20	1	38
120-129	0	2	0	26	1	1	0	76	8	95
110-119	0	0	1	29	20	1	1	108	9	93
100-109	2	8	0	54	18	1	1	144	10	150

NOTE - it seems odd that Russia seems to have to few players with a 100+ CA

PA at 2025 by Nation - all players/ages

Nation & PA Range	Australia	Austria	Belarus	Belgium	Bulgaria	Canada	China	Chinese Taipei	Croatia	Czech Republic	Denmark
190-200	0	0	0	0	0	5	0	0	0	1	0
180-189	0	0	0	0	0	15	0	0	0	2	0
170-179	0	1	2	0	0	54	0	0	0	13	1
160-169	0	2	1	0	0	70	0	0	0	15	1
150-159	0	1	3	0	0	174	0	0	0	35	3
140-149	0	2	1	0	0	170	0	0	0	16	3
130-139	0	3	3	0	0	347	0	0	0	73	7
120-129	0	10	10	1	2	579	0	2	2	116	13
110-119	2	22	24	3	1	682	0	0	4	173	21
100-109	2	26	23	4	1	675	1	0	4	158	23

Nation & PA Range	Estonia	Finland	France	FYR of Macedonia	Georgia	Germany	Great Britain	Hong Kong	Hungary	Iceland	Israel
190-200	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
180-189	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
170-179	0	18	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0
160-169	0	23	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
150-159	0	40	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
140-149	0	48	1	0	0	4	0	0	0	0	0
130-139	0	105	2	0	0	13	7	2	0	0	0
120-129	2	194	4	0	1	37	23	3	4	1	2
110-119	4	237	6	1	1	53	25	3	4	0	0
100-109	3	227	8	0	0	71	30	3	4	2	1

Nation & PA Range	Italy	Japan	Kazakhstan	Latvia	Lithuania	Macau	Mexico	Netherlands	New Zealand	Nigeria	Norway
190-200	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
180-189	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
170-179	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
160-169	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1
150-159	0	0	1	5	0	0	0	0	0	0	1
140-149	0	0	0	3	0	0	0	0	0	0	1
130-139	0	0	2	9	1	0	0	0	0	0	4
120-129	4	0	8	16	2	1	0	1	2	0	11
110-119	5	0	15	16	0	0	2	4	3	0	15
100-109	9	1	19	23	1	0	1	5	1	1	23

Nation & PA Range	Poland	Romania	Russia	Serbia	Slovakia	Slovenia	South Africa	South Korea	Spain	Sweden	Switzerland
190-200	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	1
180-189	0	0	4	0	0	0	0	0	0	6	1
170-179	0	0	8	0	0	1	0	0	0	20	1
160-169	0	0	8	0	5	0	0	0	0	31	2
150-159	0	0	30	0	4	1	0	0	0	62	2
140-149	0	0	38	0	3	0	0	0	0	50	8
130-139	0	0	102	0	20	1	1	0	0	176	8
120-129	1	0	112	0	50	5	3	0	0	276	34
110-119	1	0	232	1	85	3	0	1	4	374	46
100-109	3	2	253	0	89	10	3	0	3	344	80

Nation & PA Range	Turkey	Uganda	Ukraine	USA
190-200	0	0	0	3
180-189	0	0	0	4
170-179	0	0	0	34
160-169	0	0	0	48
150-159	0	0	0	102
140-149	0	0	0	75
130-139	0	0	0	191
120-129	0	0	1	337
110-119	1	0	6	363
100-109	0	1	5	340

CA/PA averages at 2025 by League
The left hand side is all players Contracted To (so includes signed minor pros/juniors and is much higher than the number that "play" in the League)
The right hand side is the number of teams x 23 players, so it is reasonably representative of those actually playing in the League)

LEAGUE	Players	CA average	CA range	PA average	PA range	----	Players (23 per team)	CA average	CA range	PA average	PA range
NHL	1846	105.1	1-196	127.4	10-200	----	690	145.6	124-196	159.2	132-200
KHL	841	78.8	8-171	108.4	31-186	----	644	90.1	55-171	118.9	80-186
AHL	508	55.8	1-132	83.1	10-160	----	527
SHL	493	88.8	22-171	116.1	44-174	----	322	105.0	79-171	128.2	100-174
HockeyAllsvenskan	464	74.1	20-136	102.2	45-175	----	322	86.6	60-136	113.9	80-175
Liiga	540	83.1	20-167	110.9	40-197	----	345	100.0	75-167	126.2	100-197
NLA	403	63.4	2-155	92.1	10-175	----	276	76.6	49-155	105.2	60-175
Czech Extraliga	482	70.5	5-144	99.0	19-180	----	322	84.9	5-144	112.9	80-180
DEL	452	70.2	3-153	97.4	13-178	----	322	86.7	50-153	114.7	65-178
Erste Bank Eishockey Liga	406	64.7	1-150	94.4	16-174	----	276	81.6	50-150	112.5	80-174
Slovakian Liga	345	64.6	8-124	93.6	22-158	----	207	80.0	60-124	108.8	80-158
GET Ligaen	322	61.0	3-124	90.3	10-152	----	230	74.5	45-124	105.2	60-152
Metal Ligaen	339	51.9	2-137	81.1	10-177	----	230	66.7	36-137	98.7	60-177
EIHL	236	73.2	5-124	101.6	10-154	----	230	74.9	9-124	103.7	20-154
EPL	332	40.3	1-120	63.5	10-131	----	230	54.2	17-120	81.4	21-131
ECHL	402	84.5	43-128	111.4	65-157	----	437
LNAH	199	68.5	32-124	100.1	61-170	----	172	72.7	49-124	102.8	73-170

LEAGUE	Players	CA average	CA range	PA average	PA range	----	Players (teams x 23)	CA average	CA range	PA average	PA range
WCHA (NCAA)	246	43.4	2-105	70.8	10-120	----	230	46.0	10-105	74.6	22-120
NCHA (NCAA)	123	24.1	2-50	44.3	10-72	----	161
Hockey East (NCAA)	272	51.4	1-100	79.9	10-135	----	276
WHL	589	60.1	21-113	94.1	43-172	----	506	63.1	49-113	97.4	60-172
OHL	502	65.3	22-114	99.5	44-182	----	460	67.4	50-152	102.0	64-182
QMJHL	466	61.3	25-100	94.1	52-168	----	414	63.7	49-100	96.3	63-168
USHL	362	42.7	2-92	74.3	10-176	----	391
J20 SuperElit	513	42.7	4-94	76.6	10-160	----	460	45.6	25-94	80.8	41-160
MHL	594	38.3	1-81	71.4	10-180	----	723
Fin A-Jr SM-Liiga	410	44.2	4-83	76.4	10-146	----	368	47.3	25-83	80.7	42-146

Post by **Alessandro** » Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:09 am

Nino, are you still projecting about getting to 2035?

Post by **nino33** » Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:59 pm

Alessandro wrote:Nino, are you still projecting about getting to 2035?

Yes! Test 2 is already done up to 2035, Test 1 is currently simming and is in December 2033 (and then the tedious, mind numbing "compiling of the data" HaHa)

Post by **nino33** » Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:38 am

Here's the first part of the results from Test 2 (all possible players/staff added) at 2035
.

PA at 2035 - Birth Years 1992-2021

BIRTH YEAR	2012	2013	2014	2015	2016	2017	2018	2019	2020	2021
PA Range/Player Age	22-23	21-22	20-21	19-20	18-19	17-18	16-17	15-16	14-15	13-14
190-200	0	1	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0
180-189	0	0	1	4	1	0	0	0	0	0
170-179	2	1	4	1	4	3	4	3	2	0
160-169	2	3	4	5	6	3	3	7	1	1
150-159	7	8	16	8	7	5	13	9	10	2
140-149	8	15	8	11	9	9	12	12	1	2
130-139	39	43	40	27	28	21	22	36	14	4
120-129	49	58	54	44	48	51	58	84	38	7
110-119	47	70	99	78	87	78	90	110	44	6
100-109	68	77	76	91	70	73	78	110	48	10

BIRTH YEAR	2002	2003	2004	2005	2006	2007	2008	2009	2010	2011
PA Range/Player Age	32-33	31-32	30-31	29-30	28-29	27-28	26-27	25-26	24-25	23-24
190-200	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	0
180-189	2	0	0	0	1	0	0	1	0	1
170-179	5	1	1	0	0	1	0	1	3	2
160-169	12	1	2	2	3	1	6	3	5	2
150-159	10	9	3	5	3	4	4	5	4	5
140-149	14	3	10	6	7	4	6	11	9	6
130-139	33	7	17	12	23	26	25	30	26	32
120-129	52	32	28	32	23	59	33	34	31	47
110-119	57	37	47	46	51	92	80	76	76	55
100-109	58	62	62	56	75	94	99	55	73	60

BIRTH YEAR	1992	1993	1994	1995	1996	1997	1998	1999	2000	2001
PA Range/Player Age	42-43	41-42	40-41	39-40	38-39	37-38	36-37	35-36	34-35	33-34
190-200	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	2	3
180-189	0	0	0	1	1	1	0	0	4	3
170-179	0	0	0	0	0	1	10	4	20	21
160-169	0	0	0	0	0	4	10	7	29	21
150-159	0	0	0	0	4	1	14	16	40	57
140-149	0	0	0	0	3	7	13	13	29	31
130-139	0	0	0	0	0	2	3	13	51	75
120-129	0	0	0	0	1	4	17	43	103	150
110-119	0	0	0	0	0	1	3	10	70	93
100-109	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	9	83	122

Here's a look at the older players and their CA/PA (players with a 150+ PA).....

Year of Birth - Name/Nation (League Playing In) CA/PA
1995 - Anthony DeAngelo (NHL) 153/186
1996 - Jack Eichel/USA (NHL) 153/184
1996 - David Pastrnák/Czech Republic (WSM Liga) 110/157
1996 - Kay Schweri/Switzerland (NLB) 114/154
1996 - Brendan Perlini/Canada (GET Ligaen) 114/153
1996 - Mikko Rantanen/Finland (DEL) 109/153
1997 - Connor McDavid/Canada (NHL) 173/189
1997 - Auston Matthews/USA (NHL) 126/172
1997 - Shjon Makarenko/USA (AHL) 128/169
1997 - Mathais Laverdure/Canada (NHL) 140/168
1997 - Reynold Gaudreau/USA (NHL) 136/168
1997 - Ivan Provorov/Russia (NHL) 126/165
1997 - Jeremy Bracco/USA (NLB) 118/154
1998 - Oldrich Nosek/Czech Republic (NHL) 138/179
1998 - Tim Gettinger/USA (NHL) 128/179
1998 - Fredrik Tornberg/Sweden (SHL) 138/177
1998 - Max Jones/USA (NHL) 126/177
1998 - Niklas Lundmark/Sweden (NHL) 136/172
1998 - Patrik Laine/Finland (AHL) 127/176
1998 - Dylen Hahn/Canada (NHL) 164/174
1998 - Kim Lilja/Finland (NHL) 140/174
1998 - Evan Fitzpatrick/Canada (NHL) 135/173
1998 - Nolan Patrick/Canada (NHL) 134/171
1998 - Per-Arne Nordström/Swden (NHL) 134/169
1998 - Joel Back/Sweden (NHL) 142/167
1998 - Joseph Halvarsson/Sweden (NHL) 150/166
1998 - Kasper Pitkänen/Finland (NHL) 140/166
1998 - Otto Lindfors/Finland (Free Agent) 139/163
1998 - Eduard Stepanov/Russia (KHL) 140/162
1998 - Erik Strömberg/Sweden (NHL) 140/161
1998 - Erik Strömberg/USA (NHL) 133/161
1998 - Givani Smith/Canada (NHL) 137/160
1998 - Lubomír Simek/Slovakia (NHL) 135/160
1998 - Vladislav Sukhachyov/Russia (KHL) 118/158
1998 - Dante Fabbro/Canada (Liiga) 114/158
1998 - Tyrone Watkins/Canada (Liiga) 138/157
1998 - Dana Cacaro/USA (NHL) 128/157
1998 - Jonas Furrer/Switzerland (Liiga) 115/157
1998 - Marcus Davidsson/Sweden (NHL) 120/156
1998 - Adam Björk/Sweden (SHL) 115/155
1998 - Kalle Rajala/Finland (Liiga) 115/155
1998 - Griffin Mason/USA (GET Ligaen) 124/153
1998 - Joakim Bengtsson/Sweden (HockeyAllsvenskan) 126/151
1998 - Adam Tilander/Swden (NHL) 120/151
1998 - Jan Jirus/Czech Republic (Czech Extraliga) 118/151
1998 - Miikka Lindlöf/Finland (KHL) 126/150
1998 - Pierre-Luc Dubois/Canada (Slovakian Liga) 118/150
1999 - Lucas Suneman/Sweden (SHL) 143/178
1999 - Matej Jelínek/Czech Republic (NHL) 169/174
1999 - Mirko Lohtander/Finland (KHL) 134/174
1999 - Oliver Mannberg/Sweden (SHL) 134/170
1999 - Ari-Pekka Kurri/Finland (KHL) 155/168
1999 - Antoine Morand/Canada (NHL) 153/168
1999 - Leo Jensen/Sweden (NHL) 141/168
1999 - Jose Fitzgerald/USA (NHL) 140/167
1999 - Britt Murdaca/Canada (NHL) 159/166
1999 - Asher Sanford/USA (Liiga) 133/166
1999 - Christopher Marttila/Finland (NHL) 140/165
1999 - Victor Bäckman/Sweden (HockeyAllsvenskan) 125/159
1999 - Eemeli Ryhänen/Finland (Erste Bank Eishockey Liga) 116/159
1999 - Gabe Vilardi/Canada (SHL) 111/159
1999 - David Farrance/USA (DEL) 120/158
1999 - Michael Pastujov/USA (KHL) 120/156
1999 - Nikolai Kovalenko/Russia (KHL) 125/155
1999 - Saku Rämö/Finland (KHL) 124/155
1999 - Shane Bowers/Canada (Liiga) 122/155
1999 - Ian Blacker/Canada (EIHL) 120/155
1999 - Ilari Vesterinen/Finland (KHL) 124/154
1999 - Stelio Mattheos/Canada (Liiga) 122/154
1999 - Antoine Crête-Belzile/Canada (SHL) 126/152
1999 - Josh Brook/Canada (SHL) 124/151
1999 - Georgy Nikulin/Russia (VHL) 124/151
1999 - Shane Boudrias/Canada (Metal Ligaen) 118/151
1999 - Nikolajs Gailis/Latvia (NHL) 133/150

2000 - 95 players with a PA of 150-200 (the 95 players had a PA average of 163.4 & a CA average of 147.4 and 43 of 95 have a CA of 150+)
2001 - 104 players with a PA of 150-200 (the 104 players had a PA average of 162.6 & a CA average of 146.8 and 51 of 104 have a CA of 150+)
2002 - only 29 players with a PA of 150-200 (the 29 players had a PA average of 163.3 & a CA average of 150.3 and 15 of 29 have a CA of 150+)
2003 - only 11 players with a PA of 150-200 (the 11 players had a PA average of 156.1 & a CA average of 150.3 and 5 of 11 have a CA of 150+)
2004 - only 6 players with a PA of 150-200 (the 6 players had a PA average of 160.5 & a CA average of 151.0 and 4 of 6 have a CA of 150+)
2005 - only 7 players with a PA of 150-200 (the 6 players had a PA average of 158.1 & a CA average of 146.9 and 4 of 7 have a CA of 150+)

CA at 2035 by Nation - all players/ages

Nation & CA Range	Austria	Belarus	Canada	Chinese Taipei	Czech Republic	Denmark	Estonia	Finland	France	Germany	Great Britain
190-200	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
180-189	0	0	5	0	1	0	0	1	0	0	0
170-179	1	0	26	0	2	0	0	5	0	0	0
160-169	1	0	47	0	8	1	0	13	1	0	0
150-159	1	0	37	0	5	0	0	12	0	0	0
140-149	2	0	72	0	10	0	0	24	0	2	0
130-139	1	2	56	0	4	1	0	16	0	1	0
120-129	4	4	171	0	27	4	0	53	0	3	1
110-119	1	5	211	0	36	4	1	59	1	7	1
100-109	4	1	273	1	57	1	0	83	1	14	8

Nation & CA Range	Hong Kong	Iceland	Israel	Kazakhstan	Latvia	Lithuania	New Zealand	Norway	Romania	Russia
190-200	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
180-189	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	2
170-179	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	1
160-169	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	3
150-159	0	0	0	0	2	0	0	0	0	7
140-149	0	0	1	0	1	0	0	1	0	11
130-139	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	9
120-129	0	1	0	2	3	0	0	1	0	56
110-119	0	0	0	3	6	1	1	4	0	42
100-109	3	0	0	2	7	0	0	2	1	57

Nation & CA Range	Serbia	Slovakia	Slovenia	South Africa	Spain	Sweden	Switzerland	USA
190-200	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1
180-189	0	0	0	0	0	3	0	2
170-179	0	0	1	0	0	4	1	13
160-169	0	4	0	0	0	9	0	23
150-159	0	2	0	0	0	21	1	36
140-149	0	2	0	0	0	21	3	29
130-139	0	2	0	0	0	24	2	26
120-129	0	4	0	0	0	62	6	110
110-119	1	8	1	0	1	71	13	114
100-109	0	2	1	2	0	126	12	158

PA at 2035 by Nation - all players/ages

Nation & PA Range	Armenia	Austria	Austria	Belarus	Belgium	Bulgaria	Canada	Chinese Taipei	Croatia	Czech Republic	Denmark
190-200	0	0	0	0	0	0	6	0	0	0	0
180-189	0	0	0	0	0	0	11	0	0	1	0
170-179	0	0	3	0	0	0	66	0	0	7	0
160-169	0	0	1	0	0	0	85	0	0	12	1
150-159	0	0	1	1	0	0	183	0	0	27	4
140-149	0	0	4	3	0	0	163	0	0	24	3
130-139	0	0	6	5	0	0	356	1	0	67	5
120-129	2	0	11	7	1	1	598	1	1	111	8
110-119	0	2	20	27	4	0	665	1	5	188	21
100-109	1	3	23	27	2	1	703	0	4	194	26

Nation & PA Range	Estonia	Finland	France	FYR of Macedonia	Georgia	Germany	Great Britain	Greece	Hong Kong	Hungary	Iceland
190-200	0	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
180-189	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
170-179	0	21	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
160-169	0	20	1	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0
150-159	0	49	0	0	0	1	1	0	0	0	0
140-149	0	39	0	0	0	2	0	0	0	0	1
130-139	1	99	1	0	0	20	0	0	1	0	0
120-129	0	215	4	0	0	30	24	1	4	3	2
110-119	0	225	5	0	0	55	29	0	5	6	2
100-109	2	258	4	1	1	81	40	0	4	3	1

Nation & PA Range	Israel	Italy	Japan	Kazakhstan	Latvia	Lithuania	Macau	Mexico	Netherlands	New Zealand	Nigeria
190-200	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
180-189	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
170-179	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	0
160-169	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
150-159	0	0	0	1	4	0	0	0	0	0	0
140-149	1	0	0	0	4	0	0	0	0	0	0
130-139	0	0	0	2	10	1	0	0	0	0	0
120-129	4	3	0	7	18	1	0	1	2	1	0
110-119	4	6	0	14	19	0	0	0	4	3	0
100-109	1	9	2	17	23	3	2	2	5	1	1

Nation & PA Range	Norway	Poland	Romania	Russia	Serbia	Slovakia	Slovenia	South Africa	Spain	Sweden	Switzerland
190-200	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
180-189	0	0	0	2	0	0	0	0	0	6	1
170-179	0	0	0	2	0	0	1	0	0	14	2
160-169	0	0	0	13	0	6	0	0	0	36	1
150-159	1	0	0	30	0	5	0	0	0	43	6
140-149	1	0	0	38	0	3	0	0	0	60	8
130-139	5	0	0	88	2	25	2	0	0	179	12
120-129	13	0	2	118	1	44	4	3	1	295	47
110-119	12	1	2	241	0	83	3	2	2	372	50
100-109	26	3	3	258	2	100	9	1	1	377	90

Post by **nino33** » Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:06 am

I think I had poorly/incorrectly labeled the BY LEAGUE data, indicating it was from the "League Playing In" column
What is should have said/what is correct is the data is from "League Contracted In" column (and on the right side is the data that represents the "League Playing In" data)

Here's what I added to previous BY LEAGUE data posts.....
The left hand side is all players Contracted To (so includes signed minor pros/juniors and is much higher than the number that "play" in the League)
The right hand side is the number of teams x 23 players, so it is reasonably representative of those actually playing in the League)

It's been a tough day dealing with the EHM update & my three computers

My wife's computer that EHM hasn't worked on in many months is still not playing EHM! I even tried uninstall/reinstall twice, it still crashes when you try to advance.......my computer was suddenly started doing the same thing today! And uninstall/reinstall (twice) made no difference - I eventually figured it out, and have discovered that I can still test AND work on my excel sheets compiling data, but I can NEVER actually look at the test! The moment I minimize all my excel files (so I can see the game simming) it immediately crashes! So I've learned to deal with it, and can even use youtube for audiobooks/music, but I can't look at the sim! HaHa.......and my laptop is still working, but I can't have it hooked up to my TV or use it for youtube anymore

It took me hours to figure this all out! HaHa

Post by **nino33** » Fri Jul 29, 2016 7:45 am

Here's the rest of the results from Test 2 (all possible players/staff added) at 2035
.

CA/PA averages at 2035 by League (as of October 2035)

LEAGUE	Players	CA average	CA range	PA average	PA range	----------	Players (teams x 23)	CA average	CA range	PA average	PA range
NHL	1279	124.6	32-199	142.8	66-199	----------	690	145.0	120-199	157.0	124-199
KHL	856	77.2	5-176	105.9	10-178	----------	644	89.1	70-178	116.5	70-178
AHL	182	81.6	44-132	104.9	65-150	----------	527
SHL	516	93.9	31-165	123.2	58-178	----------	322	110.8	84-165	134.4	100-178
HockeyAllsvenskan	494	74.6	1-126	103.6	13-159	----------	322	88.0	66-126	115.4	81-159
Liiga	545	83.7	8-156	112.5	35-190	----------	345	101.3	73-156	127.1	83-190
NLA	389	65.6	5-151	93.6	16-179	----------	276	78.7	50-151	106.4	64-179
Czech Extraliga	486	70.5	5-140	99.7	16-158	----------	322	85.9	56-140	114.4	80-158
DEL	436	71.0	2-157	96.9	12-179	----------	322	88.1	40-157	113.8	56-179
Erste Bank Eishockey Liga	406	65.4	2-140	92.6	10-171	----------	276	82.0	49-140	109.7	70-171
Slovakian Liga	338	67.4	8-128	97.0	24-152	----------	207	83.3	60-128	111.4	80-152
GET Ligaen	297	60.6	3-140	89.8	10-164	----------	230	71.1	37-140	100.8	60-164
Metal Ligaen	346	54.2	1-128	82.7	10-158	----------	230	69.9	41-128	100.6	60-158
EIHL	341	57.8	3-136	85.4	10-179	----------	230	76.9	34-136	108.3	60-179
EPL	338	37.4	1-114	66.9	10-140	----------	230	49.6	23-114	84.6	30-140
ECHL	407	81.1	34-128	105.6	65-156	----------	437
LNAH	188	77.0	32-126	106.6	62-153	----------	172	79.6	55-126	108.5	80-153

Looking at "Playing For" an NHL team

Breakdown of 690 NHL players (CA range 100-199): 20 players 100-109, 51 players 110-119, 147 players 120-129, 84 players 130-139, 122 players 140-149, 97 players 150-159, 101 players 160-169, 14 players 180-189, 2 players 190-200
TBL 8.2 breakdown of 677 players (CA range 112-190): 0 players 100-109, 3 players 110-119, 175 players 120-129, 209 players 130-139, 136 players 140-149, 81 players 150-159, 44 players 160-169, 18 players 170-179, 9 players 180-189, 1 player 190-200

Based on the combined old/new CA guidelines of 100 Poor/120-140 Average/160 Good/190 Top

2035 save has 71 Poor players (100-119), 231 Average players (120-139), 199 "above average" players (140-159), 115 Good players (160-189) and 2 Top players (190-200)
TBL 8.2 has 3 Poor players (100-119), 384 Average players (120-139), 217 "above average" players (140-159), 71 Good players (160-189) and 1 Top player (190-200)
I think the TBL CA distribution seems likely better than the 2035 save produces…..it certainly makes sense/seems realistic to me that "the lower end of talent" has caught up (so fewer Poor players)

LEAGUE	Players	CA average	CA range	PA average	PA range	----------	Players (teams x 23)	CA average	CA range	PA average	PA range
Atlantic Hockey (NCAA)	226	24.5	1-50	46.0	5-75	----------	253
Big Ten (NCAA)	161	48.1	4-116	77.0	10-153	----------	138	53.1	27-116	83.0	45-153
ECAC (NCAA)	270	52.5	2-124	82.0	10-156	----------	276
WHL	546	63.6	22-126	98.2	50-174	----------	506	65.5	46-126	100.4	62-174
OHL	522	66.3	16-147	99.6	38-184	----------	460	69.8	48-147	103.6	61-184
QMJHL	452	62.0	23-138	95.9	45-173	----------	414	64.3	43-138	98.3	61-173
USHL	356	41.7	1-111	72.0	10-156	----------	391
J20 SuperElit	466	49.8	4-106	91.0	10-176	----------	460	50.4	10-106	92.0	20-176
MHL	552	38.6	1-88	70.6	10-153	----------	736
Fin A-Jr SM-Liiga	435	45.7	2-110	81.3	10-138	----------	368	49.9	33-110	87.0	50-138

Post by **nino33** » Sat Jul 30, 2016 5:11 am

Here's the first part of the results from Test 1 (no players/staff added) at 2035
.

PA at 2035 - Birth Years 1992-2021

BIRTH YEAR	2012	2013	2014	2015	2016	2017	2018	2019	2020	2021
PA Range/Player Age	22-23	21-22	20-21	19-20	18-19	17-18	16-17	15-16	14-15	13-14
190-200	0	1	1	1	0	0	0	0	0	0
180-189	0	0	2	3	1	1	0	1	2	0
170-179	5	1	0	4	2	8	7	4	6	0
160-169	2	5	7	7	5	1	6	3	2	1
150-159	12	10	13	18	17	18	23	11	5	2
140-149	13	19	17	15	14	17	18	6	19	2
130-139	53	50	76	37	36	26	35	39	13	3
120-129	67	63	80	65	63	90	60	75	30	13
110-119	96	80	100	87	77	116	103	102	41	11
100-109	93	91	98	87	92	76	81	121	51	12

BIRTH YEAR	2002	2003	2004	2005	2006	2007	2008	2009	2010	2011
PA Range/Player Age	32-33	31-32	30-31	29-30	28-29	27-28	26-27	25-26	24-25	23-24
190-200	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
180-189	1	1	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	4
170-179	6	1	2	1	1	0	1	2	3	2
160-169	4	2	3	4	3	5	4	3	6	5
150-159	9	9	4	2	6	11	11	4	11	5
140-149	9	5	12	12	13	8	16	11	14	17
130-139	30	26	26	27	23	37	36	30	38	41
120-129	57	41	46	42	46	48	37	46	46	56
110-119	72	73	75	93	78	78	72	95	80	102
100-109	97	74	108	127	80	114	112	89	96	100

BIRTH YEAR	1992	1993	1994	1995	1996	1997	1998	1999	2000	2001
PA Range/Player Age	42-43	41-42	40-41	39-40	38-39	37-38	36-37	35-36	34-35	33-34
190-200	0	0	0	0	1	3	0	0	0	1
180-189	0	0	1	0	0	1	1	2	1	1
170-179	0	0	1	2	0	2	8	7	12	15
160-169	0	0	0	2	3	4	8	8	10	12
150-159	0	0	1	0	7	14	16	16	28	36
140-149	0	0	0	2	8	10	13	7	32	19
130-139	0	0	0	2	3	11	16	21	54	54
120-129	0	0	0	1	4	17	28	61	101	105
110-119	0	0	0	0	0	0	8	16	114	118
100-109	0	0	0	0	0	1	2	9	99	162

Year of Birth - Name/Nation (League Playing In) CA/PA
1994 - Hampus Lindholm/Sweden (NHL) 177/180
1994 - Seth Jones/USA (Free Agent) 154/170
1994 - Elias Lindholm/Sweden (NLA) 120/152
1995 - Nathan MacKinnon/Canada (NHL) 153/175
1995 - Sam Reinhart/Canada (NHL) 153/171
1995 - Shea Theodore/Canada (NHL) 149/168
1995 - Julius Honka/Finland (NHL) 155/161
1996 - Jakub Vrána/Czech Republic (NHL) 176/184
1996 - Nikolaj Ehlers/Denmark (NHL) 155/168
1996 - William Nylander/Sweden (NHL) 155/164
1996 - Mikko Rantanen/Finland (NHL) 151/161
1996 - Vince Dunn/Canada (NHL) 138/159
1996 - Nick Schmaltz/USA (Liiga) 116/159
1996 - Christian Dvorak/USA (Serie A) 117/158
1996 - David Pastrnák/Czech Republic (SHL) 120/157
1996 - Kay Schweri/Switzeland (NLA) 120/156
1996 - Liam Pecararo/USA (DEL) 117/156
1996 - Haydn Fleury/Canada (NLA) 120/151
1997 - Auston Matthews/USA (NHL) 176/195
1997 - Connor McDavid/Canada (NHL) 175/195
1997 - Yakov Trenin/Russia (NHL) 177/190
1997 - Julien Gauthier/Canada (NHL) 177/181
1997 - Mihajlo Ohlsson/Sweden (NHL) 166/177
1997 - Jakub Zboril/Czech Republic (NHL) 155/176
1997 - Zach Werenski/USA (NHL) 155/167
1997 - Matthew Tkachuk/USA (NHL) 154/166
1997 - Noah Hanifin/USA (NHL) 156/165
1997 - Michael McNiven/Canada (NHL) 160/160
1997 - Wictor Molin/Sweden (GET Ligaen) 120/159
1997 - Anthony Carmine Cooke/Canada (Erste Bank Eishockey Liga) 120/158
1997 - Lawson Crouse/Canada (DEL) 120/157
1997 - Juho Raatikainen/Finland (NHL) 140/156
1997 - Steivan Schneiter/Switzerland (Erste Bank Eishockey Liga) 135/155
1997 - Sebastian Aho/Finland (KHL) 120/154
1997 - Felix Sandström/Sweden (SHL) 120/154
1997 - Mitchell Marner/Canada (Liiga)
1997 - Carl Grundström/Sweden (NHL) 128/152
1997 - Rudolfs Balcers/Latvia (NLA) 120/151
1997 - Rasmus Asplund/Sweden (NHL) 116/151
1997 - Baker Hughes/USA (NLA) 122/150
1997 - Aleksi Saarela/Finland (GET Ligaen) 120/150
1997 - Pavel Zacha/Czech Republic 118/150
1998 - Tim Gettinger/USA (NHL) 180/187
1998 - Olli Juolevi/Finland (NHL) 155/176
1998 - Jakob Chychrun/Canada (NHL) 155/175
1998 - Nolan Patrick/Canada (NHL) 158/174
1998 - Casey Lane/USA (NHL) 166/172
1998 - Marwin Ducommun/Switzweland (liiga) 159/171
1998 - Luke Green/Canada (NHL) 157/171
1998 - Miska Timonen/Finland (NHL) 170/170
1998 - Lukas Vladar/Czech Republic (NHL) 170/170
1998 - Max Jones/USA (NHL) 154/167
1998 - Flavian Aebi/Switzweland (NHL) 166/166
1998 - Bernt-Ola Lindblad/Sweden (NHL) 155/165
1998 - Jaromir Evan/Czech Republic (NHL) 157/163
1998 - Joakim Järlefelt/Sweden (NHL) 162/162
1998 - Clayton Keller/USA (NHL) 158/160
1998 - Michael McLeod/Canada (NHL) 157/160
1998 - Connor Bunnaman/Canada (NHL) 156/160
1998 - Marcus Davidsson/Sweden (NHL) 141/158
1998 - Alexander Nylander/Sweden (NHL) 138/158
1998 - Vreni Bolliger/Switzerland (NLA) 124/158
1998 - Dante Fabbro/Canada (Czech Extraliga) 120/158
1998 - Edgars Treijs/Latvia (KHL) 128/157
1998 - Jean-Paul Hamilton/USA (DEL) 124/157
1998 - Pekka Niukkanen/Finland (NLB) 120/156
1998 - Dmitri Sokolov/Russia (KHL) 119/155
1998 - Ales Stejskal/Czech Republic (DEL) 150/154
1998 - Kale Clague/Canada (NHL) 130/154
1998 - Jirí Lipták/Slovakia (Liiga) 130/152
1998 - Matt Hotchkiss/Canada (Metal Ligaen) 120/152
1998 - Jesse Puljujärvi/Finland (Liiga) 120/152
1998 - Patrik Laine/Finland (DEL) 115/151
1998 - Patrik Laine/Finland (NHL) 126/150
1998 - Tanner Kaspick/Canada (EIHL) 120/150
1999 - Urho Vaakanainen/Finland (NHL) 189/189
1999 - Barry Bellamy/USA (NHL) 179/180
1999 - Eugene Hamilton/Canada (NHL) 174/178
1999 - Filip Hellström/Sweden (NHL) 174/178
1999 - Mauritz Palm/Sweden (NHL) 174/177
1999 - Zbynek Straka/Czech Republic (NHL) 170/177
1999 - Jukka Pekka Tolvanen/Finland (KHL) 164/175
1999 - Erich Gibbons/USA (NHL) 171/172
1999 - Ilari Lukkari/Finland (NHL) 168/171
1999 - Zikmund Racansky/Czech Republic (NHL) 168/168
1999 - Tommi Andersson/Finland (NHL) 164/168
1999 - Gabe Vilardi/Canada (NHL) 155/168
1999 - David Farrance/USA (NHL) 158/165
1999 - Viljami Salonen/Finalnd (NHL) 159/164
1999 - Sébastien Reeves/Canada (NHL) 160/161
1999 - Nico Hischier/Switzerland (NHL) 159/160
1999 - Nikolai Kovalenko/Russia (NHL) 156/160
1999 - Matvei Zaseda/Russia (KHL) 124/157
1999 - Patrik Hrehorcák/Slovakia (SHL) 124/157
1999 - Rudolf Lendak/Slovakia (SHL) 121/157
1999 - Stanislav Sinyugin/Russia (NHL) 153/155
1999 - Louis-Filip Côté/Canada (Liiga) 122/155
1999 - Connor Owre/USA (NHL) 139/154
1999 - Isac Lundeström/Sweden (SHL) 138/154
1999 - Antoine Morand/Canada (Liiga) 120/154
1999 - Ian Blacker/Canada (Liiga) 138/152
1999 - Timothy Liljegren/Sweden (NHL) 124/151
1999 - Santeri Ropponen/Finland (KHL) 150/150
1999 - Steeve Fidanza/Switzerland (NHL) 140/150
1999 - Shane Boudrias/Canada (Liiga) 127/150
1999 - Jonas Røndbjerg/Denmark (KHL) 124/150
1999 - Ondrej Stloukal/Czech Republiuc (Czech Extraliga) 124/150
1999 - Greg Meireles/Canada (DEL) 122/150

2000 - 51 players with a PA of 150-200 (the 51 players had a PA average of 161.6 & a CA average of 151.8 and 28 of 51 have a CA of 150+)
2001 - 65 players with a PA of 150-200 (the 65 players had a PA average of 162.2 & a CA average of 154.7 and 44 of 65 have a CA of 150+)
2002 - only 20 players with a PA of 150-200 (the 20 players had a PA average of 164.5 & a CA average of 167.2 and 13 of 20 have a CA of 150+)
2003 - only 13 players with a PA of 150-200 (the 13 players had a PA average of 158.4 & a CA average of 152.5 and 9 of 13 have a CA of 150+)
2004 - only 9 players with a PA of 150-200 (the 9 players had a PA average of 163.3 & a CA average of 155.5 and 6 of 9 have a CA of 150+)
2005 - only 8 players with a PA of 150-200 (the 8 players had a PA average of 164.1 & a CA average of 164.0 and 8 of 8 have a CA of 150+)

With players with a PA of 150-200…..as with Test 2, Test 1 strangely shows far fewer players in the 30-33 age range than there are in the 33-38 age range

CA at 2035 by Nation - all players/ages

Nation & CA Range	Austria	Belarus	Belgium	Canada	China	Croatia	Czech Republic	Denmark	Finland	France	Georgia
190-200		0	0	2	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
180-189	0	0	0	8	0	0	0	0	1	0	0
170-179	0	0	0	21	0	0	6	0	3	0	0
160-169	0	0	0	26	0	0	5	1	7	0	0
150-159	1	0	0	32	0	0	11	3	15	0	0
140-149	1	0	0	57	0	0	6	2	19	0	0
130-139	1	4	0	59	0	0	9	0	16	1	0
120-129	0	9	0	191	0	1	35	3	39	1	0
110-119	5	4	1	170	1	0	29	2	45	1	0
100-109	4	6	0	273	0	0	58	5	48	1	1

Nation & CA Range	Germany	Great Britain	Hungary	Italy	Kazakhstan	Latvia	Lithuania	New Zealand	Norway	Poland	Romania
190-200	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
180-189	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
170-179	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
160-169	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
150-159	1	0	0	0	0	2	0	0	1	0	0
140-149	1	0	0	0	1	1	0	0	1	0	0
130-139	3	0	0	0	0	2	0	0	0	0	0
120-129	9	0	0	0	4	8	0	0	1	0	0
110-119	6	0	0	0	2	11	1	0	0	1	0
100-109	21	2	3	1	5	4	1	1	6	0	1

Nation & CA Range	Russia	Slovakia	Slovenia	Spain	Sweden	Switzerland	Ukraine	USA
190-200	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
180-189	2	0	0	0	1	0	0	1
170-179	2	0	1	0	7	3	0	18
160-169	4	2	0	0	10	1	0	22
150-159	14	5	0	0	14	2	0	30
140-149	16	3	1	0	16	4	0	31
130-139	9	3	0	0	17	5	0	38
120-129	48	18	3	0	55	7	2	97
110-119	52	15	0	0	93	16	0	137
100-109	101	24	0	1	119	19	1	124

PA at 2035 by Nation - all players/ages

Nation & PA Range	Australia	Austria	Belarus	Belgium	Canada	China	Croatia	Czech Republic	Denmark	Estonia	Finland
190-200	0	0	0	0	5	0	0	0	0	0	0
180-189	0	0	0	0	13	0	0	1	0	0	1
170-179	0	0	0	0	38	0	0	7	0	0	10
160-169	0	1	0	0	45	0	0	8	2	0	9
150-159	0	0	3	0	105	0	0	21	3	0	27
140-149	0	2	1	0	142	0	0	18	2	0	30
130-139	0	4	4	0	263	0	0	50	6	0	71
120-129	0	7	14	3	458	1	1	74	5	0	89
110-119	1	18	27	0	486	1	6	145	17	1	135
100-109	1	21	19	1	557	1	2	146	27	2	149

Nation & PA Range	France	FYR of Macedonia	Georgia	Germany	Great Britain	Hong Kong	Hungary	Iceland	Italy	Japan	Kazakhstan
190-200	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
180-189	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
170-179	0	0	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
160-169	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
150-159	1	0	0	3	0	0	0	0	0	0	1
140-149	0	0	0	4	0	0	0	0	0	0	1
130-139	2	0	0	13	1	0	0	0	1	0	1
120-129	2	0	2	22	3	1	2	0	2	0	12
110-119	3	0	0	40	9	2	3	3	5	0	12
100-109	9	1	0	66	6	2	3	1	4	1	17

Nation & PA Range	Latvia	Lithuania	Luxembourg	Mexico	Netherlands	New Zealand	Nigeria	North Korea	Norway	Poland	Romania
190-200	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
180-189	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
170-179	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
160-169	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
150-159	5	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	0
140-149	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	0
130-139	10	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	5	1	0
120-129	17	2	1	0	0	1	0	0	6	0	1
110-119	16	0	0	1	0	0	0	1	16	2	1
100-109	32	1	0	1	1	0	1	1	16	0	0

Nation & PA Range	Russia	Serbia	Slovakia	Slovenia	Spain	Sweden	Switzerland	Turkey	Ukraine	United Arab Emirates	USA
190-200	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1
180-189	2	0	0	0	0	3	0	0	0	0	5
170-179	7	0	0	1	0	10	4	0	0	0	25
160-169	5	0	3	0	0	16	2	0	0	0	34
150-159	29	0	8	0	0	35	6	0	1	0	70
140-149	36	0	5	1	0	39	7	0	1	0	57
130-139	89	0	19	1	0	147	9	0	0	0	145
120-129	123	0	41	3	2	198	41	1	1	0	252
110-119	239	0	79	4	1	277	46	0	4	1	285
100-109	247	3	93	8	0	300	70	2	4	0	256