Any value to lower draft picks?

miked1991 · Post by **miked1991** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:04 am

As the title says really... looking through the draft each year there never seems to be any valuable players after the first round or so's gone by, and if you want someone to become a decent NHL'er the first rounds the only one to look at. You can find some players with potential 3rd liner or something but I don't see the point in using these. I can trade away my lower picks to get the number 1 overall, and when you've got the top pick each year you can fill the lower lines with the prospects. By the time these prospects develop, I'll have new prospects to go on the bottom lines. By prospects we're talking #1 picks here, and considering my team currantly contains Stastny, Richardson, Stamkos, Tavaras, Wolski, Kane, and Hodgson... I've just drafted Tavaras today so you know how far through the game I am, I've got Richardson playing second line, Stastny on the 3rd, Tavaras jumping into 4th line straight from the draft. Stamkos had a poor year so he's taking another in the juniors (he got 80 points before I drafted him then 50 this year, no major injury either). I've got Sakic on for 1 final year (his stats are deteriorating fast but I can't bring myself to drop someone who got 98 points last season, and anyway he'll make good trade deadline bait for draft picks perhaps). Next season I move Statsny to the top line, promoting Tavaras and Stamkos. That'll settle my forwards development, and ofc I've got the big problem of too many centres, so I can see Richardson and perhaps one other leaving someday due to budget. On right wing I've got St. Louis for about 5 more years before he's too old, Kane on the 2nd line to replace him (although he won't like waiting 5 years for the top line spot!). Left Wing there's Wolski to take the top line this season (well... ruddy Calgary injured him for 8 months in last years playoffs so havn't got him till christmas, ouch for my team there!), and a bit of a gap I was hoping to fill with a FA signing, but see my other thread on that one, none of them seem to want to come so I spent the cap space Rob Blake as I needed some talent on Left D. Ofc there's Hodgson to move up to 2nd line in a couple of years. I did find a couple of leftover first round picks from this years draft to get a couple of 1st round potential wingers, one each side, as my depth on the wings isn't great. Defence isn't too great at all, but my style doesn't really involve much defending lol! Anyway, big FA signings has me covered here for the moment, with the D lining up with Blake, Niedermayer, Chara, and three nobodies, Matviachuk, Trnka, and Boynton. In goal there's Nabokov to keep me going for a few years.

So back to my question - whats the use of those picks from round 3 onwards? Trading them all out for a top 5 pick gets me another 1st line prospect, and 1 big prospect a year will cover me as it takes just 5 years to draft another in each position, each player can have a career of say 15 years, thats 3 lines sorted, all top draft picks. I'll have the vet on the 2nd line, prime player top line, and a developing player 3rd line. 4th line is made up of the 2nd round picks.

I don't see the use of the lower picks. I know I'll hit money trouble trying to hold onto all of these players, but they can be traded out for plenty of cheaper players as I need... and that value 1.5mill a year winger won't be hard to get from another team when I'm throwing Steve Stamkos at them! (and they should give me even more picks, resulting in me having draft day dominance in 20 years time!)

Post by **batdad** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:34 am

Wow! Yet another story about how to exploit the AI and beat the game. It is so amazing to me how everyone thinks that they are the first to discover that the AI is not perfect, and you can trade rubbish for 1st rounders, and Five guys for an Alex Ovechkin who is injured for two weeks.

I tell yah, it makes the game such a challenge to play it that way. Finish first overall, win cup, trade for first overall pick, sign the top UFAs and deal for young superstars with them 3 months later.

I really wish I would see a story...outside of how I play, how Stinson and B72 play in the NHL where you know....Tavares is not on the 4th line at age 26....Where instead you know...maybe it was a Prab Rai or ....an actual fourth liner.

And you know...you develop your own players, and draft 30th when you finish first, and dont trade for Bobby Ryan and Patrick Marleau.

But then again, I am sure if you participated in a TBL challenge you would beat me. Cause you already beat the game.

So sick of superstar stories.

Post by **joehelmer** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:01 am

I agree with Batdad on this one.

Sure, everybody plays the game their way, but I don't see the fun with that way of playing the game.
I did play that way in the earlier versions, but then I realised that it didn't developed my playing the game and I gone tired of the saves after a couple of months, in game that is.

What to do with those picks?
Draft players with them, as you're going to need lower line players, as you say you will get budget problems. The youngsters don't need to be in the NHL team from the juniors as soon as they are drafted, give them one more season in their junior teams and then maybe assign some of them to your AHL team to develop them even more.
The exceptions maybe Tavares and some other great prospects.

But this is just my style of playing.

miked1991 · Post by **miked1991** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:43 am

joehelmer wrote:I agree with Batdad on this one.

Sure, everybody plays the game their way, but I don't see the fun with that way of playing the game.
I did play that way in the earlier versions, but then I realised that it didn't developed my playing the game and I gone tired of the saves after a couple of months, in game that is.

What to do with those picks?
Draft players with them, as you're going to need lower line players, as you say you will get budget problems. The youngsters don't need to be in the NHL team from the juniors as soon as they are drafted, give them one more season in their junior teams and then maybe assign some of them to your AHL team to develop them even more.
The exceptions maybe Tavares and some other great prospects.

But this is just my style of playing.

Whats the use of players who my scouts say won't reach the NHL, or those who are just potential 4th liners where I'd much rather be developing future players for the third line or better. However I draft I'm always going to have a first round pick each year with potential for one of the top 3 lines, and this player will want a chance to develop on the 4th line before moving up. And yes I do use the juniors, a lot. Stamkos is using every year of eligability he can, Kane had a year after being drafted. Only Travares has jumped straight in for me (I was going to put Stamkos in and give him a junior year but he's stronger anyway so I'm putting him in now). Back to the point, there's a new first round pick to use each year however I play (even if its the pick from 2 years ago due to juniors), so spaces on the roster aren't really available for the 4th liners.

How many players from the 3rd round and beyond actually develop into anything useful? Scouts say limited potential on pretty much all of them, and whats the point of developing someone who won't ever play for me!

Post by **CeeBee** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:56 pm

IRL there are a few hidden gems like Dave Taylor of the Kings taken with the #210 pick. Every year there's some lower draft pick or two who not only ends up having a good career but sometimes a great career. The big problem is guessing which one will be the lucky one and in EHM I don't know if the chance is there for it to happen as I've not been playing long enough to tell. Good luck on the low draft picks and remember, keep your stick on the ice

Hypnotist · Post by **Hypnotist** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:19 pm

My question would be how extensive your scouting is and how good your scouts are. I use the max number scouts, each with a minimum of 85 (17) in at least one of the scouting stats and a Head Scout with 85+ in both (high Judgement = pro scout; high judge potential = amateur scout) and treat them like rented mules. My scouts are always scouting a team or league. The only break they get is the time between the "finished scouting" news item to the "started scouting" news item, draconian I know but they have to earn their money! I have found that I can find some high risk/high reward players every year in the later rounds. I try to create a team with 2 solid scoring lines, a checking/shut-down line and a development line with a couple of youngsters and a veteran to teach.

To answer your question more directly, later draft picks are good for taking good depth players or to take a flyer on a player who is not good now but may have the potential to become a solid NHLer. I also use them to find "defensive" forwards for future shutdown lines.

That said, the way you seem to play the game, lower draft picks wouldn't have any value other than as bargaining chips to get higher picks. I too played this way for a while in EHM 05 and quickly got bored. There wasn't any tension, drama or uncertainty in the game. After a couple of consecutive 75+ win seasons followed by Stanley Cups every time, it kind of becomes ho-hum. But, more power to you.

miked1991 · Post by **miked1991** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:37 pm

Hypnotist wrote:My question would be how extensive your scouting is and how good your scouts are. I use the max number scouts, each with a minimum of 85 (17) in at least one of the scouting stats and a Head Scout with 85+ in both (high Judgement = pro scout; high judge potential = amateur scout) and treat them like rented mules. My scouts are always scouting a team or league. The only break they get is the time between the "finished scouting" news item to the "started scouting" news item, draconian I know but they have to earn their money! I have found that I can find some high risk/high reward players every year in the later rounds. I try to create a team with 2 solid scoring lines, a checking/shut-down line and a development line with a couple of youngsters and a veteran to teach.

To answer your question more directly, later draft picks are good for taking good depth players or to take a flyer on a player who is not good now but may have the potential to become a solid NHLer. I also use them to find "defensive" forwards for future shutdown lines.

That said, the way you seem to play the game, lower draft picks wouldn't have any value other than as bargaining chips to get higher picks. I too played this way for a while in EHM 05 and quickly got bored. There wasn't any tension, drama or uncertainty in the game. After a couple of consecutive 75+ win seasons followed by Stanley Cups every time, it kind of becomes ho-hum. But, more power to you.

"high judge potential = amateur scout" - Is that a mis-typed? Surely when looking at youths judging potential is the most important stat. I certainly don't use scouts as much as you, I just don't know what to do with them! How many scouts is the maximum? And where do you go to scout? I tend to struggle to find things to be scouted! The best season I've had was a while back with the Rangers, something like a 70-6-6 season, and that was with a good shut down line as you describe. But my currant game is going terribly, and although I've got plenty of long term stars in the making, short term things aren't going well. Wolski's missing the first half of the season due to an 8 month injury, and Sakic's out for 3 months. Richardson's development seems to be going backwards, my coaches say they don't think he's worth a spot on the roster, but he's my 2nd line centre! Problem is just that nobodies producing... coaches were telling me to give Kane a more important role on the team after he was a third liner last year, but up to second line this year he's on 9 points from 18 games and not putting in good rating. Most games I'm losing out about 5-3, concerning to be letting so much in with Niedermayer, Blake and Pronger at the back (Traded Chara for Pronger to get under the cap early on). I just don't think my teams good enough, McCaulley playing top line left winger with Wolski out, I signed him to be a 3rd line checker a couple of seasons back (the one and only year I won the cup, and that was an underdog win).

Some might consider my approach cheating, but considering I'm struggling to reach a playoff spot so far this season its not exactly going well! I think I need to go through the staff and get better coaches, scouts, everything.

Post by **batdad** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:46 pm

Noone said it was cheating. The AI is there to do the trading thing, so you can...so it is not cheating. Just boring to do things over and over that a real NHL GM would never be able to do. Absolutely no way Marleau (an old example from many other threads) gets dealt for a first rounder and 3 fourth liners and 2 minor leaguers. And less if Marleau is hurt for a week

You would have to give something up for sure. Unless of course, Keenan or Milbury are the other team's GM.

LoXish · Post by **LoXish** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:44 pm

I've had quite a few really nice surprises in the late rounds. I typically gamble in the late rounds with playesr that maybe ONE of my scouts has a 5 Star for and no one else even rated him -- usually these are overaged players that have been passed over in the previous draft, but I've had 4 or 5 that got some playing time with me and then helped as a sweetener in a deal later down the road. And I'm talking about Round 5-7.

miked1991 · Post by **miked1991** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:06 pm

At least now I know how to go about using them probably for future games. As I'm not winning in my currant game yet I think I'll save this approach until I'm convinced I've reached some form of domination in my currant game. Complete lack of currant depth on the wings is killing me at the moment, too much time given to prospects who aren't quite there yet.

Hypnotist · Post by **Hypnotist** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:26 am

miked1991 wrote:"high judge potential = amateur scout" - Is that a mis-typed? Surely when looking at youths judging potential is the most important stat.

Not amateur as in "second-rate" amateur as in they scout amateur players (Canadian juniors, US college, Euro juniors, etc.) Pro scouts evaluate professional players (NHL, AHL, ECHL, Euro pros, etc.) It is the most important stat if you want to look at a players potential. If you are interested in seeing how good a player is now, then Judging Ability is more important.

miked1991 wrote:How many scouts is the maximum?

14 + 1 Head Scout

miked1991 wrote:I certainly don't use scouts as much as you, I just don't know what to do with them!...And where do you go to scout? I tend to struggle to find things to be scouted!

While in the game, click on the binoculars in the upper left corner (below the search box) or hit F5. This will take you to your scouting screen. Along the top, there are several buttons one of which is "Scouts" with a drop list. Select the scout you want. In the lower left menu click "Assign Scout" and choose if you want them to scout a team, league, prospects, Entry Draft, etc. Then choose the team, league nation etc. and set any scouting parameters if applicable. Only "Intensive" scouting will give you full scouting reports. Lesser intensities are faster to complete, but give you incomplete info. I always use intensive.

The Head Scout will have a report on any player that has been scouted by any scout in your employ. So if a player is scouted by Scout 2, when he reports on that player, you will be able to see not only what he thinks, but what your Head Scout's impression is as well. This is why it is important to have a HS with high numbers in both judgment stats.

As for which teams or leagues to scout, scout each team in your league individually at the beginning of each season (usually start right before training camp) which takes about 2 weeks. When a scout is finished with a team, I save it as [Team Name] [Season Year] (ex. Detroit 06-07). Saving isn't mandatory, but it helps to look back sometime as scouting reports don't stay forever. Reassign the scout to another team in your league until all teams have been scouted. This allows you to have a solid base of info on the players in the league.

Once all league teams have been scouted, start scouting feeder leagues either team by team or the league as a whole. Once I get all the NHL teams scouted, I then scout the AHL, QMJHL, OHL & WHL team by team. This will give you lots of info on other NHL team's prospects as well as prospects for the drafts. Sometimes I'll scout the ECHL team by team, but there isn't typically a lot of NHL-level prospects playing there. Once those are done, I look at the NHL ISS rankings and see which leagues the players are in and how many are in each league. Canadian Jrs obviously have the most, you can re-scout them as a league if you want, but look at the Euro leagues and scout the leagues that have players ranked. This is typically where you can find diamonds in the rough or low rep players who are good talent. If you want, I can send you a spreadsheet I use to keep track of who I've scouted in a particular season.

Most importantly, keep your scouts assigned, don't let them rest on their behinds. Work them like circus monkeys!!! They like it.

miked1991 wrote:Some might consider my approach cheating, but considering I'm struggling to reach a playoff spot so far this season its not exactly going well! I think I need to go through the staff and get better coaches, scouts, everything.

Not cheating since you are playing within the parameters of the game. It's just that that style of play can get old pretty quick and gets a little tiring to hear about. Don't worry about batdad, he's almost always like that. We've had a run-in or two

Hope this helps.

Franck · Post by **Franck** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:55 am

CeeBee wrote:IRL there are a few hidden gems like Dave Taylor of the Kings taken with the #210 pick. Every year there's some lower draft pick or two who not only ends up having a good career but sometimes a great career. The big problem is guessing which one will be the lucky one and in EHM I don't know if the chance is there for it to happen as I've not been playing long enough to tell. Good luck on the low draft picks and remember, keep your stick on the ice

The Red Wings have been building a dynasty out of late round draft picks in real life so what you are saying is true.
The problem with EHM in this regard is that the draft ranking is made by the game looking at the current ability (CA) and potencial ability (CA) and player reputations and then listing them up with the highest rated coming in first. This obviously means that there is absolutly no way that you'd get a Zetterberg, Lundqvist or Datsyuk with your 190th pick in EHM as all the high PA guys would have gone by the third round.
Some guys with low PA but the stats in the right places might go late in a draft though.

Post by **batdad** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:06 am

Don't worry about batdad, he's almost always like that. We've had a run-in or two

And in the end, batdad was right!!! I even got a semi apology once. Heh.

Miked1991--I am grumpy..yep. And new guys who come in and talk about their superstar teams is really really old around here. Say oh...3 years old. So it gets really annoying. It is funny though when they cannot win with them, and wonder why. Sorry, but it is. Especially when there are guys around here who win with teams who have noone better than a third liner.

Franck · Post by **Franck** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:10 am

Who said that you need talent to win the Cup?

In the world of EHM all you need to have is some great skating!

miked1991 · Post by **miked1991** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:30 am

batdad wrote:
Don't worry about batdad, he's almost always like that. We've had a run-in or two
And in the end, batdad was right!!! I even got a semi apology once. Heh.

Miked1991--I am grumpy..yep. And new guys who come in and talk about their superstar teams is really really old around here. Say oh...3 years old. So it gets really annoying. It is funny though when they cannot win with them, and wonder why. Sorry, but it is. Especially when there are guys around here who win with teams who have noone better than a third liner.

I wouldn't call my team a superstar team, maybe a potential superstar team... bit like the Blackhawks or Penguins from a couple of years back, looking good but not there yet.

If anyone is at all interested in how my games going, 60 games in battling over a playoff spot, there's 9 teams getting away and I'm one of them, but 4th through 9 is tight. Was looking terrible at first but an injury to Sakic and Richardson playing badly got me to play Stastny on the top line and he hasn't looked back. I probably should have tried this before lol! Was on course for a 100 point year but a couple of injuries may halt that. Wolski came back from injury and is on 100 point year form although he's only playing the second half of the year. Beyond the top line is where the talents missing, Sakics just too old now (scouts rate him a 3rd line talent) and Richardson just not doing too great. I think I should have waited before playing Travares, given him another junior year. I'm probs going to get rid of Stamkos come the end of the year as he'll never get a top line chance with the other players coming through, see what picks I can get for him, and will use them on defencive positions, my weakness once my currant players leave. I did trade Blake for Vainanen (my spellings awful) so my D would just last a few more years before it retires... Niedermayer is the only cruicially old one, the rest can hopefully hold on until some draft picks come along, but I may well get D prospects for Stamkos to speed up development here. Hodgson moved back to juniors 20 games in as he just didn't fit.

I'll reply to the great help from Hypno tomorrow, 2:30am and getting sleepy!

binchnunker · Post by **binchnunker** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:44 pm

it may be frowned upon, but in one of my games I use the saved game editor to view player potentials during the draft. I'll see how it plays out for me

jbsnadb · Post by **jbsnadb** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:22 pm

It amazes me how many people are so willing to exploit loopholes to take away the challenge.

I felt guilty trading up for John Tavares, but I traded up ONE SPOT to get him.

johnny_rudeboy · Post by **johnny_rudeboy** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:04 pm

It takes the fun out of playing when you always trade up to get top picks year after year. And there is hidden gems in the later rounds. But even if my 5th round draft pick "only" becomes a 4th liner I see that as a success since he made it to the NHL and I have had several "love affairs" with my lower picks if I train them and follow their virtual careers.

LoXish · Post by **LoXish** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:56 pm

Everyone plays their own way, we all paid for the game and are allowed to play how we wish, just remember that.

Richie Daggers Crime · Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:50 pm

Perhaps you'd find more reward in finding that hidden gem in the late rounds rather than packing them up for a high-percentage 1st rounder. I've found a few good ones, like the defenseman I picked 150th who is now scouted as a "franchise defenseman" ... or the 105th pick winger who has had five 30g+ seasons.

harmonica · Post by **harmonica** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:04 am

As long as you are having fun, play the game the way you want to.

For most people in this thread, they have been there and done that, but it does get boring. Forcing yourself to follow rules and succeed in this game is what makes it challenging for me and so much more enjoyable.

There is nothing more rewarding than drafting somebody in the 4th (or later) round and developing them into somebody who makes it to the pros.

Sometimes I get attached to guys I have drafted and refuse to give up on them. Most of the time it doesn't work out. But sometimes it does. My biggest accomplishment was finally getting a guy to play on my team at the young age of 27. Eventually he became a 55+ point guy on my second line. After that he cashed in big and I had to let him go. He continued to get 35-45 point seasons for the AI and I was proud of the guy. By the end of his prime, he had a high reputation for somebody of his skill level/stats.

selne · Post by **selne** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:36 am

harmonica wrote:... Forcing yourself to follow rules and succeed in this game is what makes it challenging for me and so much more enjoyable. ...

What are these rules? Is there any guide how to play the game fair?
If not why can't we just create one? It could sound like:

"Rule 1.1: Every year use at least 7 picks and one pick from each round to draft talent. The 1st round pick must be the team's original one."

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:12 pm

selne wrote:
harmonica wrote:... Forcing yourself to follow rules and succeed in this game is what makes it challenging for me and so much more enjoyable. ...

What are these rules? Is there any guide how to play the game fair?
If not why can't we just create one? It could sound like:

"Rule 1.1: Every year use at least 7 picks and one pick from each round to draft talent. The 1st round pick must be the team's original one."

We have rules for our challenges and a lot of people like to follow those rules even on games they play on their own. One of the rules is a budget limit, so even if your board allows you to spend the full cap, you're not allowed to go over a certain number. Another rule is that you have to retain your 1st and 2nd round picks. You're also not allowed to stockpile picks via trade. No more than 2 picks allowed per round. In our last NHL challenge, we even had an optional method of play that allowed you to go over the budget (but not the cap) but you weren't allowed to trade or sign free agents. You had to develop all of your own talent. These things all helped make the game more interesting.

Coyote of the Sea · Post by **Coyote of the Sea** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:21 pm

i'll trade for a first rounder sometimes, usually for a first round pick or a few 2nd and thirds. never look to get more then 2 or 3 first round picks. I might also take a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd round draft pick for a player i need to get rid of, or just don't need on my team. Nothing wrong with that imo, since its plausible to happen in real life.

I have found it fun in my current Coyote game to work more on getting talent from within then have a bunch of superstars, just been working a few different guys (though i almost got Malkin on RFA, but he decided to stay with the Peguins

) Plus being the coyotes singing UFAs is a pain to begin with.

On topic, i use late round picks to look for guys with decent work ethic and determination and see if they can become anything worthwhile to me

jbsnadb · Post by **jbsnadb** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:39 am

I too, try to work guys through my system than to sign guys as free agents.

To stick with the original topic, I took Ryan Wilson 68th overall (3rd round). I could have taken him in the 4th, but I felt he was best player available at the time. He just won the Norris trophy for me in his 6th season.