Player Potential / Development / Progression

[Ogilthorpe]

dabo,

When I use NHL EHM I often wonder if it would be possible to have a hidden attribute that would have an effect on how players perform during their careers during the last year of their contract.
It sure seems like some players will have a great year during the last year of their current contract.
It would be interesting to add an hidden attribute that has an effect on this.

Also players who have had a great last year on a contract and sign a new one could start off great and have their play/points slide as the contract goes from year to year and when the last year comes up they go all out to make sure a good contract will be offered to them.
This hidden attribute could be connected to Ambition, Professionalism and Greed.
It would be interesting to sign a player to a multi-year contract and based on a hidden attribute have him start off good then tail off for a year or two and go all out in the last year of his contract.
You could have the majority of players only affected slightly or not at all by this and you could also have the extreme cases on either end of the spectrum who are known to give everything they have each and every year of their contract term and players who are notorious for dogging it until it's the last year of his contract.
Since it would be very difficult to actually rate most real players for such an attribute this hidden attribute could just be randomized.
Trying to find players who have a good or bad reputation for contract years and trying to trade for them or getting rid of them could add a nice layer to the game.

[dabo]

That is something to consider, not in the very beginning though.

[empach]

Really like your phone call idea.

I also really like Ogilthorpe's idea of adding something to affect how players play in the last year of a contract. A lot of players seem to have their best years at the end of contracts. Some research into player histories might be useful here, but it might be worth it to look into something to handle this.

I always wanted something where I could set a desired return for a player. Like how the Thrashers wanted a top 4 d-men, top 6 forward, top prospect and a 1st round pick for Kovalchuk. If there was some kind of system where I could set the desired return that would be really nice.


But this might be stuff to worry about for a future release. Might be best to stick to the basics for the first version.

[Panfork]

One of the things I always really disliked in EHM was how CA/PA was handled, especially with age.

I'm not going to pretend to understand exactly how potential ability works; I'm not sure if it stays a constant number, or if it can actually go down if a player's potential "isn't realized", but I think EHM should really have more prospects not reaching their potential, since there are loads and loads of prospects each year that are picked in the NHL Entry Draft that never reach how good they are. Many players never reach the NHL, and many just don't become as good as they're expected to. In this game, I feel you can definitely achieve a more realistic approach to potential development than EHM had.

And on the other side of things, old age is handled completely wrong in EHM. For some reason, SI found it smart to use a set time for players to stop being able to produce as much. It seems every player would be in their peek between ages 26 and 37. And then when they reach 37-38, the only thing that seems to fade from their attributes is speed? Makes no sense to me that every player suddenly, at the same age, and an old age at that, starts to lose speed and nothing else, and does slightly worse until they retire. Players lose their abilities at really really random ages, and it's not just one thing that goes. Wade Redden showed obvious signs of age as early as 30, while Lidstrom only started to show a real decrease in performance a few years ago.


I just think the decreasing of a player's abilities should be more randomized, and more severe/general, instead of just slight decreases in speed.

[ArtVandelay]

One of the things I always really disliked in EHM was how CA/PA was handled, especially with age.

I'm not going to pretend to understand exactly how potential ability works; I'm not sure if it stays a constant number, or if it can actually go down if a player's potential "isn't realized", but I think EHM should really have more prospects not reaching their potential, since there are loads and loads of prospects each year that are picked in the NHL Entry Draft that never reach how good they are. Many players never reach the NHL, and many just don't become as good as they're expected to. In this game, I feel you can definitely achieve a more realistic approach to potential development than EHM had.

And on the other side of things, old age is handled completely wrong in EHM. For some reason, SI found it smart to use a set time for players to stop being able to produce as much. It seems every player would be in their peek between ages 26 and 37. And then when they reach 37-38, the only thing that seems to fade from their attributes is speed? Makes no sense to me that every player suddenly, at the same age, and an old age at that, starts to lose speed and nothing else, and does slightly worse until they retire. Players lose their abilities at really really random ages, and it's not just one thing that goes. Wade Redden showed obvious signs of age as early as 30, while Lidstrom only started to show a real decrease in performance a few years ago.


I just think the decreasing of a player's abilities should be more randomized, and more severe/general, instead of just slight decreases in speed.

I'm with you. In my opinion, there could be a "Longevity" attribute that determines, for each player, their professional lifespan. Or at least how long their skills will last.

By the same token, certain other attributes should increase for certain players (not all). Mental/Intelligence attributes should, in some cases, increase to make up for loss of skill. Think of Steve Yzerman. When the Wings won those Cups late in his career, his skills were nowhere near what they were in his prime. But he dedicated himself to defense and played extremely intelligent hockey in order to stay relevant.

IMO, EHM handled attribute progression poorly.

[philou21]

I don't think their should've that kind of attribute. You never know when a player's gonna fall, it's part of the game in real hockey too, I'm not in for that. Will be too easy to get rid off somebody when he approach 35 if he got a 2/20 longevity.

[ArtVandelay]

Another thing I just remembered that I've always felt simulation games handle incorrectly is general attribute progression during a player's career.

As players get better in these games currently, we see drastic increases in certain attributes - take Speed for instance. When a player is drafted at 17/18 years old, they are probably close to as fast as they may ever become.

What really separates a rookie from a veteran, to me, are consistency, mental attributes, and reaction speed. Don't know how reaction speed could play into it, but Consistency is huge. A rookie with tremendous skill fails because he just can't get it done reliably. The ones who succeed learn to be consistent or are consistent from the beginning.

That, to me, is also something that requires a keen scout to pick up because the top junior players can often excel without giving their all every game. But when they get to the pros, if they don't adjust and go all out every game, they find themselves getting traded and falling in the depth charts until they wind up a power play specialist or go off to Europe.

[ArtVandelay]

I don't think their should've that kind of attribute. You never know when a player's gonna fall, it's part of the game in real hockey too, I'm not in for that. Will be too easy to get rid off somebody when he approach 35 if he got a 2/20 longevity.

How would you know if it's a hidden attribute? Randomness is fine, too. Just not the EHM way that enforces a limit. Gordie Howe is IMPOSSIBLE in EHM. Yet, he was a very real player.

[philou21]

I don't think their should've that kind of attribute. You never know when a player's gonna fall, it's part of the game in real hockey too, I'm not in for that. Will be too easy to get rid off somebody when he approach 35 if he got a 2/20 longevity.

How would you know if it's a hidden attribute? Randomness is fine, too. Just not the EHM way that enforces a limit. Gordie Howe is IMPOSSIBLE in EHM. Yet, he was a very real player.

Sorry body, I didn't notice you've mention hidden attribute.

Edit: You didn't talk at all of an hidden attribute. And hockey from the 50's and the 2000's year is really different too.

[empach]

Gordie Howe is IMPOSSIBLE in EHM. Yet, he was a very real player.

And hockey from the 50's and the 2000's year is really different too.

Well recently we have Chris Chelios playing into his late 40s, and I think Mike Keane is still playing. EHM tends to boot players as soon as they're 40. Not that we need a dozen 40 year olds still playing but it's something to think about.


I'm also in favor of making the draft harder. I find it way too easy in it's current format.
Maybe we should only see the scouting report for a given player and not they're actual attributes. Or maybe instead to distinct attributes we'd only get their colour and more blanks? More dependency on your scouts rather than manually looking at a players attributes is probably the best way to go.


One thing I've always wondered about EHM is how much a good season plays into attribute progression. Like if you take a guy like Rich Peverly in real life how he seemingly came out of nowhere and had a good season, should/does the game weight a player like that for a CP increase?

Sorry Dabo we seem to be using your thread to hash out how to best work EHM. You shouldn't feel any pressure to implement any of this right now.

[philou21]

Well recently we have Chris Chelios playing into his late 40s, and I think Mike Keane is still playing. EHM tends to boot players as soon as they're 40. Not that we need a dozen 40 year olds still playing but it's something to think about.

One thing I've always wondered about EHM is how much a good season plays into attribute progression. Like if you take a guy like Rich Peverly in real life how he seemingly came out of nowhere and had a good season, should/does the game weight a player like that for a CP increase?

Great exemple for Chelios, but didn't make too much things and Mike Keane is playing in the AHL, not the same to me. Back in the 50's is was easier to stay longer. Less physics contacts and slower play were helping I'm sure. Anyway it's not the thread for that.


What you're talking about in the attribute progression....I've always wondering this too. Because even if I got a bad season I've got the impression it got nothing to do with my players development. They always develop well in the summer with the hard training they got. I have the impression it's more about training that the season itself....

[papegojbro]

I'm with you. In my opinion, there could be a "Longevity" attribute that determines, for each player, their professional lifespan. Or at least how long their skills will last.

I think this is a great idea! But maybe it would be even better to have a "player development type". For example:
Early-lasting peak, early peak, normal, late-lasting peak etc. and so on. You get the idea.

I actually think PES6 had something similar...

By using this system you may have a better chance drafting late round gems. Maybe some players will not get drafed at all and later become good NHL-players.

[empach]

By using this system you may have a better chance drafting late round gems. Maybe some players will not get drafed at all and later become good NHL-players.

This I really like. It's always bugged me that EHM doesn't seem to have much of the Gustavsson types. At least I haven't noticed them

[alexob18]

No worries Mark, neither have I

I'd love to see the St. Louis-esque player come out of nowhere. Or a Bozak. Late bloomers.

[drewst18]

This might not go here, but couldn't find out how to post a new topic.

Would we be able to fix the regen system to either (A) Include physical and mental ratings so that we don't get regens comming back who have 4 speed. Really kills some intrest when I get a guy like alexander ovechkin come back with 2 creativity
or (B) go a step further and try and have the player come back as the same type of player (sniper, passer, speedster, leader)

Anyway I do think the regen system needs a little fixing.

[ArtVandelay]

Can we please make consistency (hidden) an attribute that can improve or decrease over time? It seems like EHM, FM, CM, whatever, all have an assumption that it stays the same for the life of a player.

I thoroughly disagree. To me, it's the skill whose development most leads to skilled players becoming great players. A guy can have tons of skill but due to lack of consistency, he's a 4th liner/power-play specialist. When it clicks for him and he starts putting in a consistent effort, he becomes an all-star. If it never clicks for him, then he languishes on the 4th line or goes from team-to-team as each one thinks they can motivate him.

[philou21]

I agree with the consistency. Young players can have a weaker one but over the years if they become good players I think this can raise but I would like to let it hidden until the regen's appear, like in EHM. Just easier to sport regen.

[laskey 16]

I believe I've read about Football Manager having a 'mentor' feature, where you can assign an older veteran to look after and assist a prospect/younger player. Any chance this could be included?

[dabo]

This might not go here, but couldn't find out how to post a new topic.

Would we be able to fix the regen system to either (A) Include physical and mental ratings so that we don't get regens comming back who have 4 speed. Really kills some intrest when I get a guy like alexander ovechkin come back with 2 creativity
or (B) go a step further and try and have the player come back as the same type of player (sniper, passer, speedster, leader)

Anyway I do think the regen system needs a little fixing.

I have to admit I don't understand the whole regen thing, I assume it is retired players being regenerated as new younger players? Why is it used really? That is not how I want new players to be created.

I believe I've read about Football Manager having a 'mentor' feature, where you can assign an older veteran to look after and assist a prospect/younger player. Any chance this could be included?

Is this relevant in hockey? I have no idea I am just asking.

I agree with the consistency. Young players can have a weaker one but over the years if they become good players I think this can raise but I would like to let it hidden until the regen's appear, like in EHM. Just easier to sport regen.

I want to keep it hidden.

[philou21]

Yeah good job.

[laskey 16]

I don't know, maybe it's not very relevant. It was just an idea I had, don't know how much appeal it would have to most people.

[dabo]

Does anyone know if it is a common thing irl?

[empach]

Well I do occasionally read articles that will mention how a veteran is helping out one of the young kids. Sometimes they'll live at their house for their rookie season. Seems kinda like a mentor idea, but maybe it should happen automatically as part of the influence ratings rather than having a user assign people? I'm not sure.

[drewst18]

Regens are the way the game keeps the player pool full and generally talented.

When a player retires he (AFAIK) immediatly is "regen"erated into a player who has random name, and atts. What carries over is the player information page. Height, Weight, Nationality, Position, Offense and Defensive role and Potential ability.

The O/D role will assure that the player plays a similar role as before so that you won't get a guy like Mike Komisarek come back and be the top point producing dman. But the flaw here is that the mentals and physicals don't carry over. A player like Ovechkin or Crosby could regen with 2 agility and 6 speed and over time this drastically diminishes the talent pool. Best way is to have a Physical role to give people a skating role to regen for.

[laskey 16]

Well I do occasionally read articles that will mention how a veteran is helping out one of the young kids. Sometimes they'll live at their house for their rookie season. Seems kinda like a mentor idea, but maybe it should happen automatically as part of the influence ratings rather than having a user assign people? I'm not sure.

Better idea! Mental attributes should probably just rub off on youngsters and improve their own mental attributes. I think in Football Manager the user has to assign a mentor (I think that, don't know for sure) but I don't like the idea of that. I'm sure it definitely helps some young guys in real life in the NHL, builds their confidence and improves their game.