Scouting & Drafting

[Djungelurban]

If you haven't considered it yet you should think about adding support for adding a waiver draft system to your leagues, if for no other reason than that it serves perfectly as a poor man's expansion draft...

[Nathan]

As much as I hate to add to it, I had this thought.

I've done some work coaching football (American football), and there's always a lot of scouting that goes on at every level. NFL teams scout colleges at all levels, colleges scout high schools and military academies at all levels, and even high schools (who are usually locked in via geographic desginations) do their own scouting. In addition, there's a lot of relationships that are developed over time; an assistant coach may become a head coach elsewhere, but he maintains that contact. Or, a high school coach might keep in regular contact with a college coach who recruited one of his players.

So I was thinking about having "unsolicited" scouting advice. Why not have it set up so that that player's coach can drop you a line that says, "I've got a kid who missed some time with injuries and didn't get drafted, but I think you should take a look at him"? To use an example from this past year, Columbus drafted Ryan Johansen from Portland of the WHL. Either he or someone else suggested bringing one of his teammates (Oliver Gabriel) in for rookie camp, which he excelled in and earned an invite to the main training camp. He excelled there as well, and before going back to Portland, had been signed to an entry-level contract.

This type of thing happens all the time in football. A college coach will call up a high school coach and ask for tape on a player, and the coach might say, "I'll send it, but I know you need a player at this position as well and I've got a real good one. I'll send the tape on him as well." And any good college coach, knowing that his own scouting is inherently inefficient to some degree, will usually take a look and just might find another quality player in the process.

[dave1927p]

Great idea. I believe that is what happened with Bobby Orr and one of his coaches with the Toronto GM....but the boys in T.O. decided not to listen to him. One of many mistakes of the franchise...it could be a fun feature but might be somewhat difficult to impletment properly.

[downeaster]

I love ehm and still play it pretty much non stop, and can't wait till we get a new game of that like, but some things that I wish ehm had and I didn't see posted here.

A small thing I would like to see is a more detailed way for a scout to describe a players potential, I like how they do it at hockeysfuture by giving a number out of 10 along with a letter grade. The higher the number the better the scout thinks the player can become, and the letter indicates how likely he thinks the player will reach that level. They explain it http://www.hockeysfuture.com/playerprojections/ example Brayden Schenn's profile http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/brayden_schenn. Additionally, a scout should come back with a report to give me a rank list of his findings not just a tiered by star list.

Another small thing would to have a list of the top prospects like a top 50 published at the start of every year, and maybe top organizations done at the same time, that is something ootp does.

And one more thing although it probably doesn't belong in the scout and drafting thread is that having the U-18 world juniors. That seems to be the biggest stage for the draft eligible kids and much more important to the gms of the world then the u-20

[YZG]

And one more thing although it probably doesn't belong in the scout and drafting thread is that having the U-18 world juniors. That seems to be the biggest stage for the draft eligible kids and much more important to the gms of the world then the u-20

I like this idea

- YZG

[dabo]

Additionally, a scout should come back with a report to give me a rank list of his findings not just a tiered by star list.

What do you mean? Instead of showing 4 stars you want 8.0 B for example?

[downeaster]

I mean that there should be a sortable rating that indicates which player the scout thinks is best like his personal opinion of the value of the players. It would be nice to know which 8.0B he thought was best for example instead of just being able to see the 5 different 8.0Bs. Additionally it would be nice to have a separate current ability rating and a potential rating sort of like football manager that actually could just be stars but with a numerical number raking the players like the ISS ranking but the scouts opinion and then the 8.0 B could be part of the scouting report.

[Javs]

your scouts should also give you a top 200 ranking, and you should be able to view NHL central scouting scouting reports and rankings, ISS scouting reports and rankings, and your scouts scouting reports and rankings

[bruins72]

Essentially, you guys are talking about your scouts' Top 200 vs the ISS Top 200. It would be kind of cool if your scouts ranked the players and you could compare it to the ISS rankings. I'd then like to be able to do my own rankings or my own draft board, using my scouts' Top 200, the ISS Top 200, and scouting reports. For example, there might be a player that's ranked in the Top 20 that slips to the start of the second round. He's still available when you want to pick but you saw some serious flaws in his game or mental makeup thanks to your scouting. You've got him ranked on your draft board to go some time in the third round. You've got other players you value higher that are still available. Imagine going into the draft and being able to sort the players you're looking at by ISS ranking, your Head Scout's ranking, and your personal draft board rankings. I'd definitely use this. Right now I have to put notes in on players I really want and sometimes I still miss players I want because even though they're better than some of the second round guys, they might be ranked to go in the fourth round. Things like that.

For a good example of setting up our personal draft board, look at fantasy hockey. I've played both Yahoo and ESPN's fantasy hockey. They both have a standard ranking for players (which they'll pick your team from if you aren't at the draft). They've also got your personal pre-draft rankings. Essentially, you take their list with the players sorted how they rank them and you can move them up or down or even take them out all together if it's a player you don't want to pick at all. So if we took the ISS Top 200, we could take out guys we don't want, maybe insert guys that weren't ranked, and re-rank the players according to our liking.

[Panfork]

I get what he's saying. When you have a Scout do his entry draft scouting, he rates all the prospects by stars, and when you see a list of them, it orders them by stars, then alphabetically. So basically, you don't get the "best" of the 5-star prospects, 4-star prospects, etc on top. You get whoever comes first in the alphabet.

The suggestion is that, instead of ordering by stars, and then alphabetically, it orders from who's truly the best, to the worst. More detailed ordering. That's actually something I'd also like.

[scout1982]

As much as I hate to add to it, I had this thought.

I've done some work coaching football (American football), and there's always a lot of scouting that goes on at every level. NFL teams scout colleges at all levels, colleges scout high schools and military academies at all levels, and even high schools (who are usually locked in via geographic desginations) do their own scouting. In addition, there's a lot of relationships that are developed over time; an assistant coach may become a head coach elsewhere, but he maintains that contact. Or, a high school coach might keep in regular contact with a college coach who recruited one of his players.

So I was thinking about having "unsolicited" scouting advice. Why not have it set up so that that player's coach can drop you a line that says, "I've got a kid who missed some time with injuries and didn't get drafted, but I think you should take a look at him"? To use an example from this past year, Columbus drafted Ryan Johansen from Portland of the WHL. Either he or someone else suggested bringing one of his teammates (Oliver Gabriel) in for rookie camp, which he excelled in and earned an invite to the main training camp. He excelled there as well, and before going back to Portland, had been signed to an entry-level contract.

This type of thing happens all the time in football. A college coach will call up a high school coach and ask for tape on a player, and the coach might say, "I'll send it, but I know you need a player at this position as well and I've got a real good one. I'll send the tape on him as well." And any good college coach, knowing that his own scouting is inherently inefficient to some degree, will usually take a look and just might find another quality player in the process.

I really like this idea. Junior camps are filled with Invites for the spring camp and the best of them get invited back for the Main camp in August. I am sure some of these kids are getting the initial invite because he was recommended by a former coach or former player.

[scout1982]

I love ehm and still play it pretty much non stop, and can't wait till we get a new game of that like, but some things that I wish ehm had and I didn't see posted here.

A small thing I would like to see is a more detailed way for a scout to describe a players potential, I like how they do it at hockeysfuture by giving a number out of 10 along with a letter grade. The higher the number the better the scout thinks the player can become, and the letter indicates how likely he thinks the player will reach that level. They explain it http://www.hockeysfuture.com/playerprojections/ example Brayden Schenn's profile http://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospects/brayden_schenn. Additionally, a scout should come back with a report to give me a rank list of his findings not just a tiered by star list.

Another small thing would to have a list of the top prospects like a top 50 published at the start of every year, and maybe top organizations done at the same time, that is something ootp does.

And one more thing although it probably doesn't belong in the scout and drafting thread is that having the U-18 world juniors. That seems to be the biggest stage for the draft eligible kids and much more important to the gms of the world then the u-20

I like the detailed ratings that Hockeys Future does. It really gives the GM the resources he needs to make a decision on a kid. Someone like Kabanov where he had top 5 ability, but had major issues with his character. He could be a High Risk/High Reward type of player. Instead of a 4 Star Rating, you rate him a 8.0 C. He has the talent, but with the risk he has a chance at developing very marginally. It kind of puts pressure on you during the draft decision making process.

[LordTC]

I posted a bit about this elsewhere, but I think the optimal way to go here is to have a noisy "PA" that changes year to year, based on random updates. The scouts can give you guesses at what their current potential is but it will move up and down with yearly updates. Ideally I'd like a system that does that with potentials for each ability rather than just overall potentials.

If you wanted to incorporate this with the risk/reward ratings (great idea) you could have different update distributions based on whether the player is an A,B,C,D, etc..

[batdad]

The * system in EHM has always widdled me off. I can guarantee you there is not a scout in the world worth his or her salt that does not send in a list of players to his/her boss without a ranking system. Top players ranked 1-10000 or however many players that scout has deemed worthy. It will vary from scout to scout obviously, but each scout in an organization should be ranking the players he/she has seen. Absolutely no question. That also will help you identify which scouts are any good, and will tell you how well the scout attribute system works

[dave1927p]

i believe the (amateur) scouts get together with each other at various meetings throughout the year and compile a list ranking them. And ultimately if a GM thinks one player should be ranked higher, his opioun matters the most but the scouts combine their lists with the help of the Head Amatuer Scout to make a team list of top players for the seven rounds. Most of the time, the GMs listen to their scouts. (although, Doug Maclean didn't when they drafted a talented russian named Nikolai Zherdev over Vanek, Sutter, or Phaneuf.) In ehm, i rarely listen to them and almost always better for it (no matter how great the scouts are rated)

[Alessandro]

Well, in EHM you can get a ranking, just get the stars and click on the column to sort by them.

Frankly I do not get what's all this need of a fixed ranking system. Should you have let's say 5 scouts to advice you on pick #37, and they list 5 different players, what will you do? I talk for me, but from scouts I need opinions, not a draft robot which would pick all the players without noticing me.I just get scouts' opinions and mix them up with mine, then decide. I'm not going to pick a player because scout X ranked him 36th and scout Y 38th.

[IceTimer]

I would like to see the overall teams draft list, not just the individual scout's list, but when you combine all the scouts lists together what that list is, just like in the NHL when teams meet to decide their overall team draft list.

[dave1927p]

alessandro, i agree with you. Having a completely ranked list by your scouts would take the fun out of it and lets face it, who would really go 100 percent by that list? Either way some realism will be lost ; i'd rather it be lost to fun.

With that said, perhaps a list not ranking each player from 1-100 but from Top 3, Top 5, Top 10, first rounder. second rounder (early or late), third rounder (early or late), forth rounder ...etc This would be "the list" compiled by your scouts who they think will be drafted in that order. So in other words, if player X is a top 3 pick, if you want him you'll have to trade up or hope that he won't be picked if you have a 5th overall pick.

Then maybe next to those predictions, that's where your scouts general opioun of: Generational Player, Franchise Player, First Liner, Second Liner, OR "borrow" how The hockey news do their preditions on that part.

DOB--Player--------------team--league---GP-G-A-PTS--CPTst.-----pl. stats.----scouts pred.--scouts assessment----play. comparison
'91 - RW S. Couturier - Drumm qmjhl - 58 36 60 96 - 'Capt.' - playoff stats. - Top 3 Pick - First Line Scorer - a poor mans player x

'89 - LW D. Dave1927p--LON---OHL----61 24 55 79 ------------DNQ------------ 7th Rounder---Generational Talent----Wayne Gretzky


need to add height and weight as well....then maybe grades on categorys but that could be different screen. Just some ideas to think about

[downeaster]

I guess I wasn't clear enough I didn't mean that each scout would give you his personal list of all players (although I don't see how that is any different then in EHM getting a scouts choice for each draft choice that was in the game) A scouts list at draft time could just be their top picks (10-30) for the draft, another of their top 5 or so available when your pick is up. Maybe having a personnel tab on the draft screen that we could access the opinions of our scouts. I don't think any gm (and I certainly) would use it to just blindly make a pick but right not the scout's role is minimized and would be nice to have them be a bit more dynamic.

I think a list if much less important if the game adopted the 1-10 and A-F scale that would relate to the scout's opinion on the players potential (1-10) and their likelihood of reaching it (A-F).

[batdad]

What would be really cool...is a device which tracks a draft pick's career-and where your scout had him set to go. That way if a scout recommends alot of guys who turn out to be great players...you can pat him on the back. Conversely, if it turns out he was a Maple Leaf, or Flame scout...you could can his arse for recommending a bunch of twits.

[dave1927p]

tbatdad, yeah i really like that. So if your scouts recommends taking one player and then you take him it goes on his "resume" and it could be sorted by how many NHL games they play.

Scout A
12 years with Toronto
NHL Drafts: 10
Recommened Players Taken: 20 --2.00 per Draft
---Did Not Play in NHL: 10
---------Under 100 GP : 5 ( Players name in brakets with links to their personel profiles/stats)
----------------250 plus: 3 ( )
----------------500 plus: 1 ( )
---------------1000 Plus: 1
Sucess Rate: 50%


That would be pretty awesome....but don't see it ever happening here. Heck, even OOTP doesn't do that and theirs been soon to be 12 versions

[Alessandro]

Looks good. Although you should define what is "recommended". Is it a player ranked (every scout in the world would have Crosby as recommended, tho) or what?

[philou21]

I think he means when you are in the draft and you're picking at the 8 spot, he recommanded you the players #13 to pick.

[batdad]

It is partly why each scout should have a list that sticks to him. a ranked list from a scout that allows you to go back...look at his ranked list and the picks you made. Just like we do with Central scouting lists, and the way the actual draft went. we go back and look and say...oooh Boston sucked that year picking so and so...look who went after him. We could then do the same with our scouts as the GM. Go and look at his record and how he set things up...and our draft picks..how are they doing compared to what this scout said?

As it stands in the games now...you cannot really do that. This ranked list provided by each scout holds the scout accountable. You had Patrick Stefan ahead of the Sedin twins? What the Dickens? And why isn't our man Zetterberg even on your list? Are you dumb? Or OMG--YOu are the only scout in the world who had Zetterberg and Edler ranked in the top 400. Way to go buddy.want a raise?

A **** list does not allow to hold the scouts accountable. No history of their work..cannot tell how he/she really ranked that player. With a ranked list that stays in the scout history you can...and you can kick the rubbish out of the scout or you can praise the rubbish out of the scout.

See what I mean? It helps you as a GM find out who is making you look good, and who is holding you back. You cannot do that right now in EHM. No accountability for scouts, or really even coaches (Although you can tell a bit with coaches when your players Attributes drop or don't go up)

[philou21]

Scouts aren't reliable at all in EHM it's a fact. I basically just use them to find players and I take my own decision. Like Batdad is saying the *** system suck, it isn't accurate at all.