EHM Online Feedback/Ideas

[shooter_80]

I have created this thread to get feedback on what people have liked from playing in online leagues. Please keep this constructive as the goal is to try and improve online play for all of us and make it as fun as possible.

If you are giving feedback, please state the league you played in at the top of your post.

Thanks.

[shooter_80]

For example.

DMHNL

I like playing online play in the DMHNL because you get to play against other real people. I would not go back to playing a solo game as it just wouldnt be the same. Being able to chat/negotiate with other GM's is really fun and I get to chat about real life hockey with these GM's as well.

[drewst18]

Hell yeah I love this Thread..

NBHL/DMHNL/SSHL/HUSL/LSMHL....

some notes;

- Playing against 29 other GMs who are as smart as you and don't make dumb moves that the AI makes is truely the only way to play this game. You can set yourself some house rules, but you still find ways to win when you play offline. It is rare that I don't go all the way to at least the conf finals when I play solo.

-Draft day. There is very little about draft day that isn't AMAZING! Everyone loves the draft, you are together for a few hours looking through 100's of players trying to find just the guy for you. While at the same time that guy who picks one before you might have their eye on the same guy. Or If youre really lucky the guy after you. It is awesome to draft a guy to hear the guy whos up next say "This sucks, there goes my guy" and it is equally as naff when youre the person saying it.

- The big group chats are almost more fun than the game. It is a good time to just sit back play some EHM while the hockey game is on and youre all chatting about hockey.

- I can honestly say over the years of EHM I have made real friends. I know that with some of the guys that I am ever around their parts that I could give em a holler and we could go catch a beer or catch a hockey game..

- That being said we are like a big family and it can get pretty heated sometimes, and we spend a lot of time with each other and even the best of friends can piddle each other off; those times kinda suck. And even to the extreme when you get 30 guys together it is INEVITABLE that you will not get along with all 29 guys so you gotta learn to deal with people you might not get along with; but thats life

Things I miss about offline
- Being restricted to the NHL, I would love to play a league where you can join in any league you want
- Not being able to go at my own pace, we have 4 leagues going (3 if you count dma/b together since they stay at same time) and all of them go at the same pace of 4 days ahead for every real day, it could be becuase its the best system but it'd be nice to have a league go 6 or 7.

Issues with online:
- Some people think of it more as a stock market game rather than hockey. Trade after trade after trade to improve their team slightly each time, no regard or attachment to a player, but just as a stock to trade to get better. Takes the hockey aspect out and ruins the game
- Same note, some people care more than others and it hurts the overall quality of leagues when one person isn't worried if he never wins and the same GM is there to pick up the pieces to ensure that happens. Some people just love to play win or lose, and some are die hard cut throat... and they don't mesh well.

Overall there sin't much I would change about EHM:Online except to find a way to allow 30 GMs to play EHM 07 cause that is a top notch game.

[newsguyone]

SSHL 1,2,3, LSNHL, DMNHL, NBHL, HUSL, UFHL

Offline? Pfft.
Seriously, kudos to anyone who likes offline. But it's not for me.

Online is awesome. The problem, as Drew said, is trying to find competitive balance. I recently vetoed like 7 trades last week. At some point, you wonder what's the point. On the other hand, we see guys quitting leagues because they get sick of watching guys rip teams off and get away with it.
So it's the most challenging aspect.
Ideally, it would be great to have a REAL elite league, by-invite only, with no trade rules. But even then, you gotta be ready to move out GMs who aren't measuring up, or they become targets quick.
I like Drew's idea of a online challenge leagues, too, where you start in europe or in junior or unemployed or whatever.
But I think that would just become a giant "let's screw the AI in trades" effort.

[markiemark66]

DMB, DMA maybe NB in the near future.

Going back to offline is not the same as it was before I played online. Online rules even with it's limitations.

I think a league that has a predefined endpoint would keep things fresh. 20 seasons or so. With an updated db. No limits on the amount of cups you can win, no dynasty rule etc. It could also have a more realistic salary cap that moves every so often.

I really enjoy playing with players I know. Do you DMA guys remember what a player or coach profile looks like with a picture of a real actual guy? Or players with high influence stat? I still have my DMB team and can say I like those Wings more than any other team I have virtually Gm'd. I got them from the start and molded them to my vision. I didn't have the feeling that the team I was taking over had been abused and neglected for decades. For me it can never be as good as being able to trade for my favorite player, even at a loss.

I totally enjoy the A league. The people are great and the challenge is high. The game runs smoothly, is quick in response time and I wish sometimes it would be simmed more often. I think there is a good thing going on here and I enjoy being a part of it. But I think you established gms should share your staff with the other teams. Haha. Seriously why are so many coaches conditioning? With a defense style of play? I think the game is on a slow downhill where every player is named Jared Smith.

[batdad]

Posting this here. Hi guys,
Posting here, because i could not post somewhere else...
I had been considering joining up and trying out online play. Things that started to bother me were:

1. The constant phrase "The more rules we have, the less likely people will play". Not in my case. The rules you were discussing...to make the game fair for everyone..were rules that should be put into place

a. The no trading of recently signed RFA's...for me that would be up to the trade deadline. Then go ahead and move the guy if you are out of playoffs. This to me would apply for UFA's as well. Made me lose some interest.

b The exception rule--giving new GM's a couple years to redevelop a team. Well...I was fine with one year, until I started to see the raping of AI teams as though you were playing the game solo. Two trades in particular come to mind. And I don;t even have to look at the game itself and the stats of the players involved to know. All that does is make life a nightmare for the new GM coming in. Sorry...made me lose some interest. But was still thinking about it,

c. Finally...the thing that totally did me in. The idea that people would take advantage of the AI to sign people at the highest possible staff position (AGM) for the highest salary...and then immediately demote that person. THis totally circumvents the game and the whole point of it. To compete. Gives someone an unfair advantage in development of players and performance of his team. No way that should be allowed. Especially considering the person or people doing this are probably already the GM of a top level or prestige team, that staff members are probably more interested in signing with anyway. Most likely become a more prestigious team just because of this practice.

So...I am now no longer interested. And you can ask Manimal if you don't know me. Having me would have made it even more competitive. But...no thanks. This just looks silly now and childish. Hard to believe that you would even have to have rules to make people not take advantage. But the clear reality is .... you do.

DMA And DMB could have been right up my alley. But ... this just makes me say no. It would be more frustrating than interesting for me.

And again...FOR ME. I am sure many enjoy it and will continue to. I can tell from the threads on the above 3 subjects though, that many will not.

[thayner]

Say wha?

Well, if you were interested in playing, I'd urge you to re-consider. Things can get.. lost in translation on message boards, especially when people get heated. The ultimate goal is a fair, level playing field. It really is great fun. For me anyway, once you have played online, the offline version really pales in comparison.

In regards to the points you made;

1. Not sure what to say about that. I helped run a league once, and it eventually got to the point where the rulebook was just way too long. Increased the learning curve for incoming GMs... I assume that is what people are referring to when they say that.

a. Not sure what you are talking about, to be honest. There is no restriction on trading recently signed RFAs. There was sort of an unwritten rule against trading recently signed UFAs, but there was no official rule against it. Looks like it may be made into an official rule soon.

b. I may be misinterpreting what you are saying, but there are people in place in both leagues that are charged with protecting AI teams. They have to OK every AI trade. There are some other stipulations too... AI teams 1st round picks are off limits, for example. Aside from the Kovalchuk deal in DMB, I don`t recall ever really seeing the AI get a bad deal. Any questionable deals are typically veto'ed.

c. There was one team in both leagues taking advantage of this loophole. The vast majority of GMs were not even aware you could do this. Not sure exactly how it will be dealt with going forward... I'd guess there will be a rule put in place against it.

Anywho, the system is constantly being tweaked, and it is far from perfect. Always going to have disagreements when you have 25-30 guys competing, even if the competition is friendly. Trust me though, it`s a good time : )

Cheers

[batdad]

The drama on the message boards is not lost. It is present...sorry ever present from the posts being made, I can tell that this league would not be for me.
*I know there are people charged with dealing with AI trades, but there is constant (at least lately) bickering and drama about dealing with the AI. Annoying. Sorry...but it is for me.
* THE UFA/RFA signing and trading was just a minor irritant, but when each week there is another irritant that arises--it is not for me.

I get the idea that rules and too many rules can be annoying, trust me..I ran the challenges with B72 for some time. It is a constant irritant. But...simple things that are put in place to keep people from being silly need to be made as rules. The three things I mentioned, are things that would need to be dealt with.

Sorry...but it was just me stating that I have enough drama in my life with a teenage son playing hockey, and a daughter rapidly approaching teenage years, and any extra drama...no matter how minor some may perceive it to be...is not for me. And the drama around some trading, and some of the AI advantage taking is not for me.

Like I said, many may be fine with how things are going...but I am not interested now.

[Cap'n]

I guess I'm confused as to why you took the time to compose such a long post if you're not interested. If it's not for you... move on. Don't read the posts. But you obviously have invested a lot of time reading the boards and following what's going on in the leagues. If you're going to invest that much time, you may as well give it a shot and at least see the positives as well. IF you don't like it, and all the minor irritants get in your way.... then quit. But at least you would have gotten a look from the inside as opposed to just following posts which are obviously only going to illuminate the negative. It's kinda like watching the news on TV. You know there are good things going on in the world, but what gets the press coverage is the negative.

[nino33]

I'm happy to see these posts have been moved to this thread (from the GM Sign Up thread)
IMO this thread is a '"feedback" thread.....and Batdad provided feedback!

I myself did take the time to try it out, and I ended up quitting after only 6 in-game months, and I for sure had some similar thoughts and feelings to those Batdad expressed...

Regards

[batdad]

I guess I'm confused as to why you took the time to compose such a long post if you're not interested. If it's not for you... move on. Don't read the posts. But you obviously have invested a lot of time reading the boards and following what's going on in the leagues. If you're going to invest that much time, you may as well give it a shot and at least see the positives as well. IF you don't like it, and all the minor irritants get in your way.... then quit. But at least you would have gotten a look from the inside as opposed to just following posts which are obviously only going to illuminate the negative. It's kinda like watching the news on TV. You know there are good things going on in the world, but what gets the press coverage is the negative.

Wow. How much did you read Cap'n? Did you actually read the part where I stated I had become somewhat interested in checking out the online games? Right at the start of my message?

I am confused why you took such a long post to tell me to eff off.

And BTW--The posts that illuminate the negative are not all I read. I read tons of positive interesting stuff in terms of the game...the Bruins monthly blog, the recaps, the draft highlights. I apologize for not mentioning that there are positive aspects to it as well...the things that got me originally interested in maybe spending some time in the game.


Oh and thanks to whoever moved the posts here...they do belong here. I made a rookie mistake after all these years...but I also felt I wanted to be sure that people such as Shooter saw what someone was thinking about the game so they could take it into account for future thought patterns.

As for just diving in and starting to play then realizing it is not for me...I don't feel that is the right way to go about it. Plus...I did not want to invest a bunch of time until I had an idea.

Unfortunately, posts like the one you just made are the ones that make me feel I do not want to be part of the league at this time. Some day maybe....but not now. I know there are negative people and points to everything, and that they are my perceptions of what is going on. However..people who feel the need to be defensive about the way things are done because that is how they have always been done make me nutso.

If you read anything else on this forum or participate anywhere else...you would realize what I am about. But I don't see many posts from you. Thanks for your time and enjoy EHM!!!!

[Cap'n]

You certainly make out like you're God's gift to EHM. Two consecutive posts where you've let us know how much of a loss it is to our community that you haven't graced us with your enrollment. As for reading anything else? I have no interest. I'm one of the most involved GM's in online EHM, yet have no interest in playing offline. The only reason I'm on the TBL site is because DM moved their boards to this site.

If you actually read my message you'll see that I actually was urging you to join. But after reconsidering... I think maybe you're right... you should just "Eff off!"

[shooter_80]

Oh and thanks to whoever moved the posts here...they do belong here. I made a rookie mistake after all these years...but I also felt I wanted to be sure that people such as Shooter saw what someone was thinking about the game so they could take it into account for future thought patterns.

I moved the posts here. Thanks for the feedback and I will certainly keep it in mind. I also chased up nino33 for feedback when he resigned. We are always trying to improve the DMHNL and make it as fun and as fair for everyone involved.

I can vouch for Cap - he meant well by his original post in encouraging you to try it out before making judgement. He is an experienced EHM Online GM who is highly active and has the league and its best interest at heart over his own team. He is a good guy and someone who I would trust running the DMHNL.

If you have any further interest or specific questions batdad - please feel free to PM me.

[batdad]

Cap'n...there is alot more here than offline EHM stuff. Alot more. No hard feelings towards you at all. And no not god's gift to EHM for sure, but do know a few things about it and what makes a good player. Not exactly a noob here. No question. Again, the others who poke around more than the online threads can fill you in on how much knowledge and understanding I have of the EHM and real life hockey game. I mentioned what others would say because I know precisely that Cap'n and many of the onliners in here have no knowledge of what goes on outside the online forum.

It is funny actually...because there was one online guy who used to jump all over TBLers for not knowing anything about online... But it seems the online community (even some of those here) have no idea that TBL is not just an EHM forum. It is somewhat if not completely ironic.

No need to vouch for him Shooter...I know he knows a bit about what he is doing in the game, as I said before--I read through a ton of stuff, and it is not a widdling contest for me. Others seem to think it is ( a widdling contenst in general, just like many think everything is a widdling contest in real life).

Again...some day when I have more time and inclination I may relook at EHM online, and I hope Cap'n is still around the game, so we can have some fun. No need for anyone to be defensive about how things are. I just gave my thoughts as to why I rejected the idea of joining. Not meant to be a " go to hell EHM Online people".... meant to help EHM online for the future in recruiting new members. There is a reason not everyone joins, and these were my reasons.

You enjoy the online the way it is, and don't want it to change. Others such as myself (and clearly Nino) feel that for us to enjoy it, and make it worth our time...it does need some changes.

[-BEHR-]

Wow! Batdad, you shouldnt be a part of any online league because u cant even ASK about the league without being insulting. These leagues are for fun people who like to interact with other human beings, not for Egos. I think u should stick to your little challenges and leave the online play to the big boys. hahahah

[batdad]

I really think my posts are being taken the wrong way by a few people. It was not to upset or anger those who have been involved in online for some time. It was to point out why I was not going to join...I am sure there are others out there who would have similar things to comment about. It was supposed to be constructive help for you as to why some people don't join up and play.

Again...some day my time constraints will be better (ie when my son gets his driver's license and I am not his chauffeur anymore), and I may give it a go. I look forward to seeing that this is a fun thing to do, but for now with my time issues, and the slight criticisms above, I just don't feel interested.

My intent was not to have onliners circle the wagon and defend their positions...it was to help and to point out why I was not joining, since there are some teams apparently available. Again...apologies if writing taken the wrong way. Let's give this a rest now. Clearly onliners do not want someone who was looking into joining, or someone who tried it and did not like it to comment and provide info as to why. I will now go back to my horribly isolated world of the offline EHMers and leave the onliners to their enlightened forums and positions.

[shooter_80]

Clearly onliners do not want someone who was looking into joining, or someone who tried it and did not like it to comment and provide info as to why. I will now go back to my horribly isolated world of the offline EHMers and leave the onliners to their enlightened forums and positions.

As mentioned above, on behalf of the DMHNL, I appreciate the feedback. I try myself or get one of my VP's to get feedback anytime a GM leaves the league. It was also why this section was added. We are constantly trying to improve the league and do it at an appropriate pace and keep things active and fair. We want the DMHNL to be a fun and enjoyable experience.

Thanks again.

[-BEHR-]

I also would like to point out to Batdad that if u think your point is being taken the wrong way, isnt there a chance that u yourself have taken the league postings the wrong way for the same reason? Message boards are very misleading sometimes and in my year or so of being in the league, i have not only encountered zero problems, but i have also been helpped and taught by a number of helpful GMs. This league is an excellent hobby and without trying it out, u will never know if its for u or not. Go Flames! Cheers!

[batdad]

True it could happen. But...tis hard to mistake the facts. That Kovalchuk deal with the AI was pretty venomous on the boards. And the stuff about the hirings and the subsequent posts about my comments are not hard to mistake. It is not a personal thing for me...just not something I want to get involved in. So let's just leave it at that.

[-BEHR-]

Yes. Lets.

Anyway, as a far as the true reason for having this thread, the thing i like about the NBhL specifically is that there is generally a live sim everyday. This keeps me really hands on with my team, if im able to make the sims. I would love to see DMA have more live sims, but i realize its time consuming and doesnt work out well for some european GMs. The way i see it, if a GM cant make it to a sim, its really no different than the usual offline sim we have now. Just my opinion, though.

[aussiehabit]

From my discussions with new GMs, they have stated that the A league is quite challenging in terms of tactics/player development/scouting and so on. Since everyone in the league is pretty active so you can't easily win by just fielding a decent lineup without tactics or draft gems readily away from the other AI teams. One GM went as far as saying that he has learned so much more in 1 season in the A than all his EHM experience combined.

The idea of the online league is to have fun and compete with other like minded hockey nuts though competitive at times, we all get along 99% of the time

Keep your feedback and ideas coming.

[archibalduk]

I don't wish to fan flames, but it really does seem that Batdad's comments have been taken the wrong way by some. He's clearly taken time to read up on the DM and tried to provide some constructive comments. I know shooter is really keen for feedback - as he and aussihabit have repeated in this thread several times. It doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with the DM - it's just one person's take on things. Still, its useful to know what people think because it can identify areas that might need some work. Anyway, water under the bridge now.

Anyway, the reason I wanted to post is simply to say that I know the difficulty about trying to legislate for lots of different aspects without making the rules to long or complex. We encountered similar difficulties with the TBL Challenges. New loop holes in EHM's AI were being found in every Challenge we played; and as a result the game's rules became larger and larger to the point where it was extremely complicated. New users were complaining that the rules were just too much reading, too complex and too easy to forget - and so they were really put off joining. Thus we had to rewrite the rules from scratch by condensing everything down and concentrating on just the key points. We actually found many rules could be merged into one simpler rule. It was a pretty tough and long task (IIRC we went through many, many re-drafts), but it really helped make the Challenge rules much simpler. We also wrote a one-page "cheat sheet" which summarised the key rules for easy reference.

I'm not suggesting that the DM needs to do this (because I don't know enough about your league anymore). I'm just saying that if you find one day that the rules have become too much, you might find it helpful to try rewriting and condensing things somewhat.

[thayner]

That's a great idea, really.

I know EHM freeware had so many loopholes, that after a few years the league rule page was almost a novel. It was insane, and I'm sure a big deterrent to those who wanted to join. EHM 05 isn't quite as bad, but there are more loopholes being figured out all the time. It's a fine line to walk... trying to create an even playing field without making a cumbersome and overly long rulebook.

[nino33]

Just thought I'd note that I'm returning to the DMB.

As I noted in my recent PM to Bear/Shooter.....while “it ain’t perfect” I think I better understand what I’m getting into now, and I can live with what I dislike.....AND I miss checking in daily, and planning long term, and the idea of playing within a community of human GMs.


Regards

[thayner]

Glad to hear it : )