1974/75: Nino's Rosters - Mario Lemieux as an 8 year old

[Manimal]

Unknown team is what the game says if you added stats to a team that has no league or divisions set. To have the team extinct but name showing up, add last division

[Manimal]

And there's the issue with ALL Europeans/Russians under age 20 ALWAYS receiving an "NHL Release Clause" in their contract, and thus they end up in the NHL long before they should - so to have the younger Europeans/Russians show up in game, a user will have to use the SavedGame Editor to edit the Birth Date/Age and PA (I will provide a list of players and what adjustments to make), currently it's only 40 players.....no one will have to do this! All these players will have a PA below 100, and so if not edited, players like Larionov, Krutov, Makorov, Kasatonov, Myshkin, Kurri, Ruotsalainen, Siltanen, Lindbergh, Loob, Nilsson, Gradin and others will simply fade from the game without ever being noticed; and for those that do decide to spend the few minutes editing, a much richer, deeper experience.

This is a bummer for me. Having to fix things via the SaveGame Editor is not of my liking.
I understand that you want them to stay in Europe, but I'd prefer to have them set up from the beginning.
I like it that the game is not exactly as IRL.
I will play along and edit them in the SaveGAme editor for the test but once the real rosters are out I am changing it in the pre-game editor so I don't have to do it every time I start a new game

[nino33]

I'd prefer to have them set up from the beginning.

This was my concern, but I thought you of all people would understand....I think I'll just delete all the players under age 20 (I didn't spend 18 months creating a database so i could hear stories of a HISTORICAL NHL being so affected by Russians after the first season)

I like it that the game is not exactly as IRL

Fair enough...but you can create the players and do the editing yourself! (I'll just have a database for myself with the young players)

[nino33]

Unknown team is what the game says if you added stats to a team that has no league or divisions set. To have the team extinct but name showing up, add last division

Actually I think it might be because I got a very early version of the Hitory Editor, and Unknown Team was not an option.

[Manimal]

I'd prefer to have them set up from the beginning.

This was my concern, but I thought you of all people would understand....I think I'll just delete all the players under age 20 (I didn't spend 18 months creating a database so i could hear stories of a HISTORICAL NHL being so affected by Russians after the first season)

I like it that the game is not exactly as IRL

Fair enough...but you can create the players and do the editing yourself! (I'll just have a database for myself with the young players)

I do understand your point-of-view.
Deleting all European Under-20s is a bit drastic, don't you think?

[nino33]

Deleting all European Under-20s is a bit drastic, don't you think?

No I don't think it's drastic at all. It’s only 40 players.
I haven't spent 3000 hours and 18 months on this project to produce something I can't stand.

This database isn't really for those who don't care about the historical aspect at all...of course they're welcome to use it! But I didn't spend 18 months and 3000 hours to produce a fantasy database (again, people can use it that way, but I don't need/want to be a part of it).
A big part of my initial dream 18 months ago was reading about the Europeans/Russians in International Competitions (many of which they wouldn’t be a part of if they’re in North America!).

I like it that the game is not exactly as IRL

The modern rosters aren't like IRL after a short time, and the 1974 db will be the same!.....but that doesn't stop you from trying to produce accurate modern rosters right? I want to TRY and produce accurate historical rosters too.


It’s not my fault that the changes can't be made using the PreGame Editor.
It's not my fault that EHM has some restrictions that can't be overcome; I tried every way I could think of (a European/Russian teenager with CA/PA/Reputation all set to 1 gets an NHL Release Clause!)
And given the effort I've put in and attention to detail, I do think I have a right to produce something that I'm proud of (not something I'd hate).

Regards

[Manimal]

Set everything as you had planned. Don't change anything just because I voiced my opinion.
My opinion is only just my opinion

[batdad]

My thoughts exactly Nino. I understand where Manimal is coming from on this....I don't even use an editor so I will never get the chance.

My thought is that once you get EVERYTHING else done that you want, and the db is released and done with, and you have some time..maybe have one edition where the 40 Euros go away, and one edition where they start producing in game. Just a thought. Nothing right now....just something in the future.

This is a freaking labour of love, and I love it dude! you are outstanding.

[nino33]

Set everything as you had planned. Don't change anything just because I voiced my opinion

I think I'll "delete" them - the reason why there are only 40 is because I hadn't truely solved the NHL Release Clause problem (I've got the notes/etc long completed to producce approx 200 more).....I feel I'm still producing a pretty good retro database for others to use if they want (and my personal database will have these youngsters you can bet!)

[nino33]

maybe have one edition where the 40 Euros go away, and one edition where they start producing in game

Actually the more I think about it the more I like the single database just the way it is.
I like the "compromise" I came up with
Those that care and/or know who these young players are can edit their PA when editing the Birth Date (this takes mere minutes!!!)
Those that don't care and/or don't/won't use the SavedGame Editor can play the database perfectly fine the way it is!!! A few Europeans/Russians won't show up after a decade in-game, that's all!!!


FYI I replaced the initial message completely with the message above (I've changed my view.....I'm keeping the "young" Europeans/Russians the way they are)

[nino33]

I'll be making corrections based on what I'm finding in my testing (so far, overwrite Paul Coffey! and add a couple NHL Coaches I thought I'd already added)......plus some work on the Referee Attributes, Team Attributes, and a bit more. I'm definitely on schedule to send it to the testers in a week!

All is going relatively well with my testing...I missed dealing with some IMO well known modern (non-NHL) Staff, so that's what I'm looking to "fix" right now...

Something cool...the two screenshots below are from September 1, 2010 in-game, and they show Frank Mahovlich and Dave Keon entering the Hockey Hall of Fame!!! I'm assuming this is based on their career stats (most which occured before game start-up, and are in the db because of Archi's History Editor!).....this makes me think I might be able to populate the Hockey Hall of Fame by adding career stats to Staff! Currently at start-up the HHOF is empty! As are the History entries of all Staff





Some weirdness too...I wanted to show Gretzky being drafted, but for some reason he signed with the Colorado Rockies of the NHL without being drafted!!! Not sure why yet (it's not the Birth Year issue, and doesn't seem to be a Reputation issue either...the players started in the same created league too, and all moved to Major Junior OK)....see screenshots below; some of the players on the Final ISS Rankings for 2011 have NHL Release Clauses (but haven't signed with an NHL team) and some do not???? Gretzky's not ranked...I'm assuming because he's signed an NHL contract





Back to work!

[Manimal]

Something cool...the two screenshots below are from September 1, 2010 in-game, and they show Frank Mahovlich and Dave Keon entering the Hockey Hall of Fame!!! I'm assuming this is based on their career stats (most which occured before game start-up, and are in the db because of Archi's History Editor!).....this makes me think I might be able to populate the Hockey Hall of Fame by adding career stats to Staff! Currently at start-up the HHOF is empty! As are the History entries of all Staff

Yes, the HHOF is going by career stats. I do not know what the limit is to become added

Some weirdness too...I wanted to show Gretzky being drafted, but for some reason he signed with the Colorado Rockies of the NHL without being drafted!!! Not sure why yet (it's not the Birth Year issue, and doesn't seem to be a Reputation issue either...

I have ran across this too. It has happened when trying to overwrite retired players. I have not found a solution. Some helps by adding birthyear but not all.
You can retire the Gretzky-version that is getting signed and create a player from scratch instead

[archibalduk]

I like the "compromise" I came up with
Those that care and/or know who these young players are can edit their PA when editing the Birth Date (this takes mere minutes!!!)
Those that don't care and/or don't/won't use the SavedGame Editor can play the database perfectly fine the way it is!!! A few Europeans/Russians won't show up after a decade in-game, that's all!!!

It's just unfortunate that we have these various hard coded issues that we have to work around. As you say, it's just a case of finding the compromise you find most suitable. I personally won't be using the Saved Game Editor but I'll be perfectly happy playing along with the compromise you've proposed.

[nino33]

In looking closer at the 2011 Final ISS Rankings screenshot, I’ve confirmed something I’ve long expected was going to happen…by 2011 at least some of the top players in the draft were NOT in the database at start-up!

This is fine with me, as it was expected, and I think THIS is the “variation” from real life that will make the game much more than a “recreation sim”…….
I am NOT trying to “recreate” an entire era really…..more like trying to recreate a starting point AND trying to avoid “too much modern” taking one out of the retro mood/feel

Players that confirmed this for me include #8 ranked G Thierry Desjardins, #13 ranked C Stuart Fleck, and #16 ranked RD/LD Geoff Beaudin…..none of these players are in the starting database!

[nino33]

You can retire the Gretzky-version that is getting signed and create a player from scratch instead

Thanks so much for letting me know!
I've always suspected that some things sometimes "don't really erase" when deleted...

[Manimal]

In looking closer at the 2011 Final ISS Rankings screenshot, I’ve confirmed something I’ve long expected was going to happen…by 2011 at least some of the top players in the draft were NOT in the database at start-up!

This is fine with me, as it was expected, and I think THIS is the “variation” from real life that will make the game much more than a “recreation sim”…….
I am NOT trying to “recreate” an entire era really…..more like trying to recreate a starting point AND trying to avoid “too much modern” taking one out of the retro mood/feel

Players that confirmed this for me include #8 ranked G Thierry Desjardins, #13 ranked C Stuart Fleck, and #16 ranked RD/LD Geoff Beaudin…..none of these players are in the starting database!

Yeah, regens of retired player will come up. Nothing we can do about it

[nino33]

Hello

More weirdness than I expected with Staff (though it still functions, so I’m still going ahead with testing, but Staff names will still likely be a work in progress when I send it out Tuesday).

I have a few Free Agent staff with names like “ASSISTANT COACH 146” in the database, and those that are Invalid do not have any numbers (i.e. they’d be called just “ASSISTANT COACH”)…..so in this way I can see what the game is doing using the in-game Player/Staff Search function, and what I’ve found is at start-up the game seems to be
1. Creating players by randomly combining first and last names of both Players and Staff!
2. Creating staff by taking Invalid Staff and putting them back into the game!

Not really a big deal as I think it’s just a matter of ensuring all the prospective historical Staff I have ready are all created and placed in-game as Free Agents (not done yet), and then use random/typical names for the Invalid Staff the game is using…….everything takes time though.

[nino33]

Has anybody ever noticed any gameplay differences when changing database size? A long time ago I selected Full (using “Preferences” on the main/opening screen) database size because I thought that was the only way all my really young players would show up – I don’t think that’s what it did though….from my actual testing results quite clearly what it did was include those listed as “Invalid” (in the Editor) in the game!

I have spreadsheets listing names/jobs of those I’ve made Invalid, and in most cases I’ve changed the name in a clear way (i.e. “John Doe” becomes “John SCOUTDoe”)….so it was really easy for me to see the game was including those I’d made Invalid.
And just now I did a quick check with database size set to “Minimum” and my youngest player currently in the 1974 db, 7 year old Luc Robitaille…he was there! So was 13 year old Wayne Gretzky!

Eventually I don’t think this’ll be an issue, as once I get a chance to better populate North American minor leaguers (who never really made the NHL) and additional Europeans/Russians, these Invalid players/staff will be overwritten and returned to the database…..but right now, if one uses a Minimum sized database I think it might be VERY playable…if not I’ll need probably 6-8 weeks more time to edit all these Invalid players/staff that the game is including… So I’m wondering what would be drawbacks, if any, of playing EHM with the database size set to Minimum?




EDIT

FYI When testing I’m setting the NHL, AHL, ECHL and CHL (Major Junior) to Enhanced…then using “Player & Staff Search” in-game I’m seeing
- Minimum has 522 pages of Players. 108 of Staff
- Normal has 711 pages of Players, 237 of Staff
- Large has 714 pages of Players 241 of Staff
- Maximum has 797 pages of Players, 333 of Staff
- each page shows 26 names

Given the number of Players/Staff I've made Invalid I know 100% for sure the 1974 db currently has less "filler" than a normal database, and it currently has far fewer good Europeans/Russians playing in Europe/Russia....so it makes sense a Minimum database would work best at this time in development - as long as there's no gameplay issues!

[nino33]

It appears the game creates A LOT of players/staff at start-up by randomly combining first/last names...examples of teams where this is happening: the Utah Stars of the United States U16 West League have no players showing in the Editor, and in my most recent test they have "Clark ASSISTANT" on the roster.....in the United States High School East League "GoalieCOACH Anderson" plays for Buckingham Browne & Nichols...."SCOUT Annis" plays for South Shore in the Nova Scotia Major Midget Hockey League, etc etc


I'm not sure that database size makes any difference to my problem....I think the game might just combine any/all available names when "creating" players/staff at start-up (currently the 1974 db has well over a thousand players LESS than a typical database! And hundreds LESS Staff than a typical database....these factors may be playing a part in things too)


So it looks like I'm going to have to use a Random Name Generator and overwrite many of the names I've made Invalid.
I didn't intend to do this particular job this weekend, but I did intend to work all out on the db.....so I'll see where I'm at with the task of overwiting names in a couple days...



EDIT
Ii just occured to me that maybe I can make the changes a lot faster using the Forenames/Surnames tabs in the Editor....

[Manimal]

I can't really see what you are asking on the names. You write to much and I am too tired right now.
Yes, the game uses all names from the editor when creating re-gens and new-gens

I have never used the form 'Invalid' when it comes to staff. I only set them as retired

[nino33]

I can't really see what you are asking on the names. You write to much

I write so much because #1 I've found so little about actual editing posted (I know others who edit enjoy my posts) #2 I know some do enjoy just reading my posts.....if over the years others had posted more about editing experiences, I wouldn't be...


I wasn't asking anything about names
I did ask

Has anybody ever noticed any gameplay differences when changing database size?

I am too tired right now

Maybe that's the problem!

[Manimal]

I am too tired right now

Maybe that's the problem!

So true!

[archibalduk]

I'm not sure that database size makes any difference to my problem....I think the game might just combine any/all available names when "creating" players/staff at start-up (currently the 1974 db has well over a thousand players LESS than a typical database! And hundreds LESS Staff than a typical database....these factors may be playing a part in things too)


So it looks like I'm going to have to use a Random Name Generator and overwrite many of the names I've made Invalid.
I didn't intend to do this particular job this weekend, but I did intend to work all out on the db.....so I'll see where I'm at with the task of overwiting names in a couple days...

Database size plays no part in the generation of names. Every time you enter a first name or surname for a player, these names are added to the database (first_names.dat and second_names.dat). The database keeps track of what names exist and how many players/staff have those names. Presumably the reason for keeping track of how many players have those names is to weight the probability of each name being used for a new-gen / regen.

To prevent any generated players from having those names, you'll need to rename all of the invalid players/staff.

Presumably you're keeping the invalid players/staff for some later purpose and cannot simply delete them?

EDIT
Ii just occured to me that maybe I can make the changes a lot faster using the Forenames/Surnames tabs in the Editor....

I think you may run into problems with this. As mentioned above, each first name and surname is stored in two tables in the database. Each name has as an ID number. For each staff in the database, the first name and surname fields simply store the corresponding ID numbers for those names. For example, if 'Alexander' is ID# 1000, 'Ovechkin' is ID# 3000 and 'Edler' is ID# 3100 then the staff details/data in the database for Alexander Ovechkin will store the corresponding ID numbers (i.e. ID# 1000 for the first name and ID# 3000 for the surname) and for Alexander Edler it would be ID# 1000 and ID# 3100. I'm not sure how well I'm explaining this, but what I'm trying to say is that the staff details store the corresponding ID numbers for those names and not the text itself.

So if you remove names from the names tabs in the Editor then what will happen to those staff whose ID numbers correspond to the deleted names?

I don’t think that’s what it did though….from my actual testing results quite clearly what it did was include those listed as “Invalid” (in the Editor) in the game!

Setting those players/staff to retired rather than invalid might be the solution for this.

Has anybody ever noticed any gameplay differences when changing database size? A long time ago I selected Full (using “Preferences” on the main/opening screen) database size because I thought that was the only way all my really young players would show up – I don’t think that’s what it did though….from my actual testing results quite clearly what it did was include those listed as “Invalid” (in the Editor) in the game!

It is my understanding that it doesn't affect gameplay per se. I suppose there may be some very minor / negligible effects by having a larger database because you will have more players for leagues not loaded on standard/enhanced. I suppose with a larger pool of players for unselected / unloaded leagues, those national teams may do better (as they'll have a larger talent pool). Also, there will be more players to draft. I suppose if a player has a high potential but low reputation he won't appear in game unless you have his nation's leagues loaded and so that's one less high potential player available for the draft. But this is the only effect on gameplay that I can really envisage (but maybe someone else may have a different view / more knowledge).

I believe the two big factors affecting gameplay are:

1) Not loaded / Selected / Enhanced: This determines whether the games for the league are simulated and to what level. 'Selected' = quick sim and 'Enhanced' = full sim. Not loaded = games not simmed at all. Page 9 of the EHM manual (section 2.2.1) is the place to read about this (although it says little more than what I've said. I just include the reference for completeness).

2) Detail level configuration: When playing a loaded game in EHM, click on Options -> Detail Level. You can set the detail level (i.e. quick sim or full sim) for each loaded league here. Again, for completeness, this is mentioned on page 13 of the manual (section 3.4).

This information is probably not entirely relevant to your question, but I thought I'd explain in case it is of any use. There's a thread here which discusses quick sim / full sim etc: http://www.ehmtheblueline.com/forums/vi ... f=3&t=7728

[nino33]

Thanks for the response Arch

To prevent any generated players from having those names, you'll need to rename all of the invalid players/staff.

That's what i'm doing right now! It's going quite well/quickly too!

Presumably you're keeping the invalid players/staff for some later purpose and cannot simply delete them?

There is no way to truely "Delete" a player/staff using the Editor as far as I know (there's a button that says Delete but it doesn't work).
I gave them the weird/identifying names as I thought it would make further editing in the future easier.
Now I'm just clearing identifying fields (like Likes/Dislikes) and overwriting the known/weird names with common names...I should be finished tonight!

So if you remove names from the names tabs in the Editor then what will happen to those staff whose ID numbers correspond to the deleted names?

What I'm doing is changing names like "SCOUT" and "ASSISTANT" back to common/normal names like John and Steve (and I didn't end up using the Forenames/Surnames tabs).

Setting those players/staff to retired rather than invalid might be the solution for this.

I can't recall specifics, but it seems to me I had an issue with this (last summer) + as I've been going down the individual lists (by "Job") I've just been overwriting every known "modern" player I see.......guys like Laurie Boschman, Brian Hayward, Jim Kyte, Barry Pederson, Ken Linesman, Tony Tanti and John Ogrodnick are low rated modern scouts who are also better rated historical players.....all is good!



Regards


EDIT

if one uses a Minimum sized database I think it might be VERY playable…if not I’ll need probably 6-8 weeks more time to edit all these Invalid players/staff that the game is including…

Fortunately I was completely out to lunch earlier....should be done tonight/this weekend!

[archibalduk]

Presumably you're keeping the invalid players/staff for some later purpose and cannot simply delete them?

There is no way to truely "Delete" a player/staff using the Editor as far as I know (there's a button that says Delete but it doesn't work).

I never knew this! Well, I'd seen the odd mention here and there that users were renaming rather than deleting players but it never clicked why this was. I suppose this is because I've never worked on a major roster update before.

Thanks for pointing this out. I think it may well be very useful for some of my future editing/programming exploits (e.g. it makes me wonder whether player/staff IDs ever change when new players are added)...