Challenge 25: Detroit Red Wings (Discussion)

[nino33]

Hello to all participating/posting…I’m curious, how are you doing in games against the better Eastern Conference teams? Specifically Montreal, Boston, and Philadelphia (with the Rangers/Sabres close behind…and then a gap, and then maybe Toronto and the NY Islanders)

I ask because I notice the Red Wings are doing well for people (as I expected they would), and I know the Western Conference is weaker (Chicago’s the only top team, and they’re probably about as good as the Leafs/Islanders)…also I’ve noticed comments about unfamiliarity! HaHa and thought some may appreciate the insight (i.e. the Red Wings may not be as good as you think! HaHa)

IRL Berenson and Bergman were at the end of their careers, the goaltending was average, and after 1974-75 Dionne left Detroit (contract dispute)...on wiki 1950-1966 is described as the "Gordie Howe" era (if you don't know about Howe, he's worth looking up) and then wiki describes 1967-1982 as the "Dead Things" era because they were so bad [in EHM #1 the modern Conference division/schedule-playoff format helps a lot (forces the good teams to play each other in the East, protects Detroit) and #2 the "WHA teams" make Detroit seem better]




P.S. In addition to Chicago (with some good vets and Tony O in net) the Jets are the other decent team in the West (and I'm not sure the Jets will "transfer well to EHM" as the Jets success was pretty much all about the specialness of the Bobby Hull-Ulf Nilsson-Anders Hedberg line)

[bruins72]

I'm doing pretty poorly against the Eastern Conference teams. I lost a game to Boston 7-0. I lost to New England. I beat Quebec in OT. Toronto beat me. I beat Washington. I beat Ottawa in a shootout.The Rangers beat me. I haven't played Montreal or the Flyers yet. I don't even see a game on the schedule against the Flyers. On and we just had the All-Star Game. The East beat the West 10-1. That should tell you how lopsided the talent is between the two conferences!

I've definitely Wiki'ed some of these players on the Red Wings to find out more about them. Rutherford is playing extremely well for me. His GAA is under 3.00, around 90% save percentage, and his average rating is over 8.00 so far. He might be benefiting from my safe tactics though. I'm having the team play a fairly conservative game since they're not the most talented.

[nino33]

Thanks for the reply B72!

Rutherford was a good goalie for sure (457 NHL GP)…just not at the Dryden-Parent-Esposito level (of course he played for the Dead Things!)

Rutherford may also be benefiting from a little bit of “missing offense” in the 1974 db…I am very pleased with the results of the 1974 db 1.0, but it may need just a bit of offense added (http://www.ehmtheblueline.com/forums/vi ... 38#p145138)

[bruins72]

Sure, the Blackhawks and Jets are good teams in the West but you can't forget the Kings. They're leading the conference in my game. They've got killer goaltending in Vachon. They've also got some nice talented forwards and a couple good defensemen.

[nino33]

Sure, the Blackhawks and Jets are good teams in the West but you can't forget the Kings. They're leading the conference in my game. They've got killer goaltending in Vachon. They've also got some nice talented forwards and a couple good defensemen.

Agreed! Completely!
In my mind the Kings and Marcel Dionne connect, maybe that's why I didn't include them...I did think about including them to as a "good" team - I should have!


Vachon is (IMO) a Dryden-Parent-Esposito level goalie...When I was a kid Vachon was one of the stars on Canada's 1976 Canada Cup team, and I remember him as an LA King (I was lucky enough to see Vachon in a Kings/Islanders game in the LA Forum)...I never realized until well into my adulthood that Vachon had been on Montreal before he was "the face of the Kings"

[bruins72]

Well we struggled a bit in the 3rd quarter of the season and dropped down to 7th place in the conference. I lost Berenson to injury for 6 games, Hamel is out the rest of the season with a UCL tear, and other players have missed a few games here and there. A lot of my injuries seemed to happen all at the same time. I've been trying to make my adjustments and for the most part they've been okay but losing Berenson really hurt because Charron just plain stinks and Hogaboam belongs on one of the bottom 2 lines. So depth at center is definitely something that will have to be addressed in the off season. Also, my left wings are pretty poor. All of my LWs are 3rd or 4th line wingers.

[bruins72]

So I wrapped up my first regular season with the Red Wings. We finished 7th in the Western (Campbell) Conference. We're facing the LA Kings in the first round. We actually won the season series against the 2-1-1. Still, I'd say it's a pretty tough match-up.

Over in the Eastern (Whales) Conference, Montreal won the President's Trophy. The Flyers were 2nd in the East, followed by the Bruins and then the Rangers. Boston's Don Marcotte lead the league in points (123) and goals(58). Detroit's Danny Grant finished second in goals with 53 (and had 100 points). Marcotte's linemates Hodge and Esposito were also in the top 5 in points. Detroit's Dionne finished 7th in points. Orr lead all defensemen in points. Detroit's highest scoring defenseman was Thommie Bergman, who was 34th with 32 points. Philadelphia's Bernie Parent had the best SV% in the league and tied for the most shutouts (13). LA's Rogie Vachon had the best GAA.

Let's see if we can make it out of the first round!

[bruins72]

Oh boy! I just got the luckiest of lucky breaks! I went into my first game against the Kings and didn't even look at their roster. I played my game the way I normally do. I won 7-2! So I had to look and see what happened. Apparently, Rogie Vachon is with a UCL tear. He's been out since Feb 18th and he's expected to be out still for 2 more months. Apparently UCL tears are going around like the flu in LA because Gary Edwards (who must be Vachon's backup because he looks good... good enough to be my #1) is also out with a UCL tear. Edwards has been out since Mar 9th and he's expected to be out 3 more months. LA's organization depth at the goaltending position is seriously being tested here because third-stringer Bob Whidden is also out with an injury. He just went out in the past week with a broken finger and is expected to be out another 10 days. So we're facing a tandem of two 22 year old goalies, Ned Yetten and Kevin Neville. Both spent the season in the AHL for the most part. Neither is prepared for what they're facing. Unless we get really stupid, we should actually make it past the first round!

[nino33]

Again I just have to say it's a "dream come true" for me to see such write ups about gameplay with the 1974 database



AND I must say that even with the injury bug really hitting the Kings hard, I'm quite pleased that all of the goalies you mentioned are actual historical goalies from the era!

What's kinda funny is I think when I finish editing the AHL/CHL players that Kevin Neville will likely be contracted to the Detroit Red Wings!
Kevin Neville is part of the large group of AHL/CHL players that require further review of CA/PA + things like Draft History and Team Contracted To.....Neville (who never played an NHL game ) was IRL drafted by the Red Wings in 1973

[bruins72]

So I just victimized a guy who should be on my team? Sorry, Neville!

[bruins72]

And we got matched up with the Chicago Blackhawks in the second round. I almost thought we had a chance after we beat them 1-0 in OT in game 1. That optimism didn't last though. They beat us the next 4 games straight, only one of those games even being close. So now I've just got to get through waiting for the rest of the playoffs to finish so we can draft and get this season in the books. I'm looking forward to getting a start on next season!

[bruins72]

The the rest of the playoffs in my game...

Boston vs Montreal in the ECF. California Seals vs Chicago in the WCF. Blackhawks swept the Seals. Montreal beat Boston 4-1. So it was a Montreal vs Chicago Stanley Cup Final. And the Habs (bleh!) won The Cup in 5 games.

[bruins72]

So the season awards came out. I had guys that were runners up in a couple of them. Grant won the Byng. Dionne was named First Team All-Star. I found it funny that Berenson was a runner up for the King Clancy award, since it's about leadership. He's got very low Influence and Teamwork attributes.

My draft...

Rd 1 #16 Doug Wilson LD/RD 6'1" 189 lbs 17 y/o CAN
Strangely, Rod Langway was still available when I picked at #16 (he was ranked around 8th) but Wilson just looked better according to my scouting reports. He also had some incredibly impressive mental attributes. He's the offensive defenseman that this team need.

Rd 2 #46 Dave Semenko LW/RW 6'3" 216 lbs 19 y/o CAN
Toughness. Grit. He's a bad mamajamma! I'm thinking he'll make a nice bodyguard for this team.

Rd 3 #76 Stefan Persson RD/LD 6'1" 202 lbs 20 y/o SWE
Peter Stastny was still available at this pick and I would have loved to have grabbed him but when I started the challenge, I said I was only going to scout areas where I had a scout of that nationality. Most of my scouts were North American. I had one Swedish scout but no Slovakian or Czech scouts, so no Stastny. I wanted to grab a Swede if I could though. Persson has great physical attributes, some nice mental attributes, and pretty good hitting right now. He'll turn into a good 3-4 defenseman for this team.

Rd 4 #106 Mark Toffolo LD/RD 6'2" 198 lbs 17 y/o CAN
Another enforcer. Decent size. Okay physical attributes. Nice aggression. Bravery could really use to be better though. Still, he'll cause some trouble out there.

Rd 5 #136 Chris Rawlings G 6'5" 202 lbs 18 y/o CAN
A big goalie. I just looked him up on HockeyDB and he appears to be a modern player, born in 1988 (as he is in the DB right now) and is actually in his third year at Northeastern University. Anyhow, he's nothing special. He's a backup at best but he appeared to be BPA at the time.

Rd 6 #166 Justin Taylor C/RW 6' 196 lbs 18 y/o CAN
He's another modern player. I looked him up on HockeyDB just now and the birthdates match. He'll probably never make my team though. He's a utility forward with limited potential. There didn't appear to be many other good options available though.

Rd 7 #196 Ken Allen LD 6'1" 176 lbs 17 y/o CAN
Another modern player. Another with limited potential. The late rounds really didn't have much to offer.

So there you have it! That was my draft. Now I've got to get my screenshots and report my stats so I can get a start on season 2.

[thunderbug]

Well looking at the first reporting period, should tell us that in terms of the first season tactics will mean everything. As we will need to get that little bit out of every game. The record for 3 competitors in the first report was exactly the same. (JoeHelmer, Bruins and me) 1 more competitor won a single game more than the other 3. (Eternium) That should tell you how close this one will be. Loosie the only other one to report wasn't that much father off from the rest either. So this should be an interesting one.

[Loosie]

So the 3rd quarter was a disaster. It seemed like after every game I won I got a 'thrilled at turn of fortune' news item. Danny Grant has fallen of the pace he was setting as he was leading the league in scoring and has now fallen back quite a bit. However Marcel Dionne has picked up in that area and has been fighting for the scoring ead. He's currently at 91 points, 1 point ahead of Jacques Lemaire (funny to think of someone known now as a defense first coach at the top of the league in terms of scoring)

We even dropped into to 9th for a bit. It is a tight race for the last few playoff spots though. Chicago and Montreal have been dominant. Chicago is at 89 points and Montreal is at 95 and they haven't reached thier 60th games yet.

[nino33]

Jacques Lemaire (funny to think of someone known now as a defense first coach at the top of the league in terms of scoring)

In the mid/late 1970s he was usually the Habs #1 center between snipers Steve Shutt and Guy Lafleur...a two way center with good hockey sense, a good passer, and a howitzer for a slapshot

[bruins72]

So I signed one UFA during the signing period. I tried to get 2 low priced (under the $525k cap for two) UFAs but only one of them signed with me. I got Ernie Hicke. He had played season 1 with the Islanders but I'm guessing they were fairly deep and he wasn't in a position to do too much. I looked him up on Wikipedia and he didn't seem to have that much of a career. Still, I liked what I saw of his attributes. He's got blazing speed! I figured he'd add a nice defensive element to the top line with Dionne and Grant. So far he's performed very well. He's got 30 points in 22 games.

After October 15th, I started looking at trade possibilities. I decided that I should replace Mickey Redmond with a better 2nd line RW. So I set out looking and most of the guys I wanted I wasn't going to get with a 1 for 1 deal without giving up Dionne or Grant. It just wasn't going to happen. Then I came across Bob Kelly on the Flyers. He was a LW/RW. The Flyers were good with it, so I ended up trading Redmond for Kelly. Then I realized he was just "Competent" at RW and I probably wouldn't get his best out of him that way. So I've started shuffling my lines around to find a way to play him at LW without losing out on getting the most out of all of my players. Of course, Red Berenson is out injured again and not due back for a couple more weeks, so I'll probably have to shuffle things again when he comes back. So far Kelly has 3 points in 3 games with us.

The move that's really impressed me was signing Stefan Persson, who I drafted in the 3rd round of my first draft. I'm only drafting players from areas where I have a scout that is a native of it. So we had a Swedish scout to start and I drafted Persson because he looked like my best Swedish option in that draft by the time I got to the 3rd round. He had some great physical and mental attributes but he hadn't developed his technical attributes yet but he was a very good hitter, so I decided to sign him in the summer before the transfer window hit. I got him to come over and play for us and I haven't been disappointed! He's been a rock. I've got him in my first defense pairing with Gary Bergman. I figured he'd benefit from Bergman's tutelage. Persson is playing in that first defensive pairing and in the first PP unit. He's got 16 points in 22 games with a -3 so far and his Average Rating is 8.55! I'm very pleased with him. He was also the rookie of the month in the NHL for October. He's definitely going to be a part of my defensive core for years to come. Now I'm just bummed that I can't draft another Swede in the next draft. My Swedish scout decided to retire and I couldn't find another.

I almost signed Semenko out of camp because I really liked how he was playing in the preseason but I figured he'd be better off with at least another year in juniors. I thought about signing Doug Wilson too but he also seemed like he needed more time to develop. Wilson is strong and has good stamina but he's not much of a skater yet and his technical attributes haven't developed yet. For defensemen, I just thought Persson was further along and more ready for the NHL. Of course, Persson is also older.

[Loosie]

BTW how is Lynch doing for everyone? How are you using him? He went down just around training camp with an 8-month injury so I won't have him at all for the season. I had him penciled in as my 7th Dman.

[bruins72]

I haven't used Lynch at all in my game. He spent the entire first season in Virginia and he's still down there so far in the second season. I can't imagine bringing him up unless I have a really dire emergency.

[joehelmer]

For the second season I'm using Hank Nowak as first line LW with Dionne and Grant, that has worked pretty well, especially in PP.

But the player that is really making strides is Terry Richardson who is now the starting goalkeeper in Virginia, during season 1 he was third in Virginia and sent to Kalamazoo so he could play some matches, no he looks like he is going to be starter in NHL next season, if I don't manages to draft or sign a better goalie for the third season.

I also managed to beat Montreal with 4-0 in Detroit Olympia, a result that really shocked me as Montreal had Ken Dryden who at the time had GAA of 1.55.

[bruins72]

I used Nowak with those guys in season 1 but I've kind of moved away from him in season 2. He's been stuck on 4th line duty mostly. Richardson does look very good! The scouts still say he's a backup but he's dominated in the minors.

I've been struggling in season 2. It's been a constant battle to stay in at least 8th place in the conference. I don't know if I've messed with my lines/roster too much and ruined chemistry or if the other teams in the conference just got better in the off-season. My top line with Hicke-Dionne-Grant is killing it. My second line has struggled though. It's been changing a lot. Berenson missed a good amount of time early in the season and I dealt Redmond without having a true 2nd line RW. I've just re-signed my old-timers (Berenson and G.Bergman) for one more season but I think I might need to find a real 2nd line center (along with a real 2nd line RW) in season 3 or I'm going to continue to struggle.

[joehelmer]

I felt I needed a better first line LW than Nowak, so I managed what I believe is the steal of the year, for Redmond I got Ftorek from Phoenix.
So now my first line is Ftorek-Dionne-Grant, do I need to say they are killing it in both 5 on 5 and in PP?

In Virginia I'm struggling, but that is because both my goalies there are injured at the moment, Richardson got a UCL tear and was out for 4 months, "only" 3 months left now. And Grant was out for a ACL sprain for 3 weeks, but is back soon. It's hard to win with two grey goalies.
I wanted to call up McKenzie from Kalamazoo, but I couldn't so I had to use the grey goalies..

Really to rub it in Richardson was the rookie of the month in AHL the same month as he got injured.

[joehelmer]

So, for the second season in a row I got to playoffs, ended 5th in the Conference.
In the Campbell Quarter Final I was going up against fourth ranked Phoenix Roadrunners, we won the first three games with 2-1, 8-2 and 9-2, but then we lost the fourth match at The Olympia. Both Dionne and Gary Bergman got injured in the fourth match, Dionne out for ten days and Bergman out for a month.
Before this match Dionne had 10 points in 3 games in the playoff and was our best player, but when both he and our best defenseman got injured we didn't had much to put up against Phoenix and lost four games in a row, going from 3-0 in games to 3-4.

For next season I really need a top 2 defenseman and also a top 4 defenseman on top of that so we are covered if Bergman gets injured again.

Richardson missed the remainder of the AHL season after that UCL tear, Virginia ended up 4th in their division and went up against Baltimore who won the Division. Virginia lost 4-1 in games. I can't help thinking about the season would have gone with a healthy Richardson in the net for Virginia.

[Primis]

Both Dionne and Gary Bergman got injured in the fourth match, Dionne out for ten days and Bergman out for a month.
Before this match Dionne had 10 points in 3 games in the playoff and was our best player, but when both he and our best defenseman got injured we didn't had much to put up against Phoenix and lost four games in a row, going from 3-0 in games to 3-4.

DISCLAIMER: I am not playing the Challenge. I *am* playing as DET in the 74 DB though and my understanding is that there is no appreciable difference.

My experience is that Dionne always gets hurt in a critical time in the playoffs. It's happened to me twice now where I was behind in a playoff series, rallied back, only to have him get hurt in Game 5 or 6 and be screwed for Game 6 or 7 and drop the series. He'll go the whole season without as much as a nick but boy, come playoff time he's lost at a critical juncture.

[joehelmer]

Both Dionne and Gary Bergman got injured in the fourth match, Dionne out for ten days and Bergman out for a month.
Before this match Dionne had 10 points in 3 games in the playoff and was our best player, but when both he and our best defenseman got injured we didn't had much to put up against Phoenix and lost four games in a row, going from 3-0 in games to 3-4.

DISCLAIMER: I am not playing the Challenge. I *am* playing as DET in the 74 DB though and my understanding is that there is no appreciable difference.

My experience is that Dionne always gets hurt in a critical time in the playoffs. It's happened to me twice now where I was behind in a playoff series, rallied back, only to have him get hurt in Game 5 or 6 and be screwed for Game 6 or 7 and drop the series. He'll go the whole season without as much as a nick but boy, come playoff time he's lost at a critical juncture.

So you're saying that it is the game that is screwing me out of playoff......I KNEW IT!!!

And I wanted to sign either Paul Holmgren or Larry Patey when they bacame free agents, but they are both under 24 years old and I can't find a top 2 defenseman who is free agent at the moment so I might have to trade for one later on.
But according to my assistant I don't need a better goalie than Andy Brown, but I still feel we need a better goalie and hopefully I will get Dunc Wilson on free agency. I will probably use Terry Richardson as a backup for this season, Jim Rutherford has not been good for me when I've gave the chance to shine when Andy Brown has been injured or when I wanted to rest Brown. So he might end up in Virginia.
So for season 3 Andy Brown might end up being traded away for a defenseman.