NHL 2012/13 Updating - Volunteers Needed!

Post by **archibalduk** » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:53 pm

Lidstrom

Ps thanks for the list. I've updated the word censor!

Post by **Manimal** » Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:36 pm

Archi, you Lidstrom!
You are getting VERY off-topic here LOL

Post by **archibalduk** » Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:18 pm

It's all Batdad's fault!!

Hopefully when Daelh posts his DB, we'll get back on track.

Daelh · Post by **Daelh** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:05 am

archibalduk wrote:
Daelh wrote:But Archi, i should say i dont use the same range of CA that you use here. I use like this

Star player(Crosby, Malkin, Quick, Rinne) 170-180
Quality players(Ovechking, Karlsson, Bäckström, Sedins, Nash) 160-170
Top 6 players(Marleau, Brouwer, Backes, Pietrangelo, Richards) 150-160
Avarage players(Raymond, Oshie, Stepan, Dubinsky, Pavelec, Neuvirth) 140-150
Bottom 6 players(Tootoo, Ward, B. Stuart, D'Agostino,) 130-140
Energy players(Shelley, Hendricks, Jurcina) 120-130
Top AHL players(Pääjärvi, Maxwell, Silfverberg,) 110-120
And so on. But its something who is worth to look into.
Very interesting!

I was just comparing your list to our guidelines - it looks like in comparison you've got a lower maximum CA range and higher average range (but the top AHL range is almost identical). It'll be really interesting to see how your DB plays. I think Manimal and/or Alessandro will need to take a look before any decision is taken. How are you finding your DB plays?

Did you stick very strictly to your CA ranges? If we need to adjust it for use with the guidelines we set, then I think this could be a fairly simple conversion exercise via Excel.

So, broadly speaking, what did you update other than CAs?

Daelh wrote:but if you dont know anything about editing why the hell are you opening your stupid mouth?
Let's try to keep this civil, please.

Sorry for the delay, got an invitation after class i couldnt resist if you know what i mean.

Here is the db: http://speedy.sh/h8pJ6/15-maj.rar

So I think its runs very well, for most parts the best teams IRL like Blues, Rangers, Flyers, Canucks and Bruins are the teams who are always fighting for the CUP, teams like Islanders, Canes, Flames, Oilers, Panthers always finish in the bottom the first seasons as they should, maybe not Panthers though. But you get my point. As far as the player performance goes Malkin, Crosby, Sedins, Seguin, Hall, Nash and a couple of others are the ones who battles for the big trophies the first seasons, and on D Weber, Chara, Pietrangelo, Karlsson, Green, Doughty are the best and fights for Norris, on Goalie Rinne, Thomas, Quick, Lundqvist and Miller are the best and perform the best.

Basicly i/we have changed and according to our scouting 90% of the players in the NHL, we have corrected attributes when we thought it was neccesary, we corrected CA/PA, we made a lot of the overrated players worse and made in particulary the young guns better and corrected/updated their attributes. I have the opinion that even if a player has like 120-140 in CA they still has som topskills in some areas and we corrected such things. Like PA Parenteau is not a top quality player and has rather low CA, but his stickhandling and passingskills are top notch and because of that he has well above avarage in playmaking attributes. That is just one of many examples.

We did the same in the swedish elite league, so that would be something to look into to because of Systemfels research on Elitserien and the lack of research on Manimals db.

Last I updated all the rosters in CHL(canadian jr) and made a lot of CA/PA changes and attributes changes. There our range was like.

Star players(Huberdeau, Beaulieu, Grigorenko, Yakupov) 80-90
Top players(MacKinnon, Ekblad, Pearson, Rakell) 70-80
Top 6(Shinkaruk, Shea, Percy, Fucale) 60-70
and so on.

We managed to make the draftday 2012 rather authentic with Yakupov at first, Grigorenko, Koekkoekk, Murray, Galchenyuk, Faksa, Trouba going in the first round, and in most cases top 20. There i used -11 to -15 as PA range because of the uncertainy of players making their potential. But a handful like Yakupov, MacKinnon and Huberdeau has -9 i think. We also added all the rights to the CHL teams like players going in the OHL, WHL and QMJHL drafts 2010 and 11.

So, look into it and get back to me with some feedback. Im not inplying that this is the way to go or that I am better than anyone else. Its just in my mind, who has editing experience and playing experience since 2005 and watched NHL, CHL and Elitserien for 10 years regurlarly is more authentic than the case is with Manimals db as it is right now where some of the leagues are not researched enough.

Post by **batdad** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:22 am

Interesting stuff. I really hope I have some time to get a look at it, and try it out.

In particular the CHL. Right now Manimal's DB has most of the CHL leagues updated....and the new version will have drafts and prospects right through the 2012 drafts for at least the WHL ....but in this case as is the case with all of Manimal stuff only SOME of the attributes have actually been set. Because to him....it takes way too much time to set them all. I hope this is a great db, and am looking forward to actually getting a chance to try it out.

Daelh · Post by **Daelh** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:28 am

Post by **batdad** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:52 am

Looks okay for the most part in this brief snapshot. Cannot really say without going in and looking at all of the young guys and how they develop. But I would say that some of these players that you have mentioned don't make the show all the time should have their PA altered to be more specific if you want to make this as accurate as possible. Without the proper PA being set, you don't get guys developing to their full potential. I realize that your CA scale is lower than the other db's....so that may eliminate some of the issues. Nathan McKinnon is going to be a star...many saying he is basically Sid all over again.and if he has the chance of not turning out as one....or at bare minimum a guaranteed 2nd line guy in the show at age 21....then there is an issue with the accuracy of the DB.

But again...it is your db and you can do with it what you like. In order to really help you meaningfully I would need to get into it and look through the whole thing. But that is not happening right now. These are brief thoughts without seeing the whole.

Daelh · Post by **Daelh** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:01 am

The best players in CHL has -8 or -9, maybe someone at even -10. Its the players behind those who i have less specifik PA on. I maybe wasnt clear enough when I was making my point. Even if Murray has -8 its no guarantee he will become a star, there the AI/yourself development come into hand. But players who got draftet outside round 1 in 2012 entry draft is the one who has -11 to -15 for example. Ofcourse I have MacKinnon on -10. He becomes a star 9 times out of 10 on this DB. Just like Ekblad and McDavid.

Post by **nino33** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:04 am

The first thing I've noticed about your database Daelh is you have some really low CAs in the NHL! 20, 40, 45, 60 (ten players), 63, 70 (ten players), 74, 75 (three players), 80 (four players)...all these low CAs are Contracted To and Playing For NHL teams at start-up - is there a reason for this?

FYI Manimal 4.2 has 7 such starting NHLers (with CAs of 62, 73, 74, 76 [two players], 77 and 80); the 1974 db has 0 such players (lowest CA starting NHLer is 97)

Daelh wrote:Star player(Crosby, Malkin, Quick, Rinne) 170-180

Crosby, Tim Thomas, and Henrik Lundqvist are all at 190. Ryan Miller and Rinne are at 185

Also noticed tons of regens in waiting, like Roy, Lemieux, Sakic, Francis, Hull, MacInnis, Messier, Chelios, Yzerman, Neely, etc...are you concerned at all that your efforts on editing for added realism/authenticity will be destroyed by the dozens of star/superstar regens you're creating at start-up?

Also noticed Jimmy Howard and Jaroslav Halák at 180 CA along with Luongo...I never thought of Howard or Halák to be such elite goalies myself

Regards

Daelh · Post by **Daelh** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:26 am

You know, i didnt thought about that. Actually when you say it I raised all the goalies by 20 to get a more authentic GAA, So Halak and Luongo should ofcourse be on 160 and Rinne etc on 170.

And about the players with low CAs in NHL, no its no reason for this, i think its only that those players were listed for the official rosters at the time beeing. But they would probably not be in the NHL no.

But aside from the goalies, the players who are above 170 in CA is Bäckström, Chara, Crosby, Datsyuk, Kessel(maybe should be 165 instead though), Kovalchuk, Letang, Malkin, Sedins, Stamkos, Suter and Weber.

And yeah well, Crosby is Crosby. And about the retired players like Lemieux, I never really thought about it. They has been there for a long time and i think we always seen those players retire at the first day of the save every time we play. But as you pointed out, maybe they will spoil a bit of the work done in the DB. Probably should be kept out.

Post by **nino33** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:30 am

FYI I took a quick look at the PAs for the WHL and the QMJHL (I only looked at the variable PAs that could result in a CA greater than 100)...

WHL
[table][tr][th]PA[/th][th]Daelh 15-maj[/th][th]Manimal 4.2[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]-15[/td][td]16[/td][td]0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]-14[/td][td]105[/td][td]14[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]-13[/td][td]225[/td][td]103[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]-10[/td][td]0[/td][td]0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]-9[/td][td]2[/td][td]5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]-8[/td][td]9[/td][td]12[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]-7[/td][td]6[/td][td]19[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]-6[/td][td]15[/td][td]52[/td][/tr][/table]

QMJHL
[table][tr][th]PA[/th][th]Daelh 15-maj[/th][th]Manimal 4.2[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]-15[/td][td]75[/td][td]1[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]-14[/td][td]215[/td][td]16[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]-13[/td][td]128[/td][td]115[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]-10[/td][td]1[/td][td]0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]-9[/td][td]1[/td][td]1[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]-8[/td][td]1[/td][td]1[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]-7[/td][td]3[/td][td]21[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]-6[/td][td]2[/td][td]34[/td][/tr][/table]

Post by **batdad** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:55 am

I cannot recall and archi's most recent chart only shows -10 to -4 for PA. What are 11,12,13,14,15. I believe they are randomizers? cannot recall. But anywaY...from looking at the chart here it seems maybe a bit more research to specify what a player is likely to develop into has been done.(at least in the WHL case). More pinpointing of a player potential. As long as it is accurate, and from playing the WHL a bit in the Manimal 4.2 db it appears pretty good.....this would be preferable for me.

Post by **nino33** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:57 am

Daelh wrote:aside from the goalies, the players who are above 170 in CA is Bäckström, Chara, Crosby, Datsyuk, Kessel(maybe should be 165 instead though), Kovalchuk, Letang, Malkin, Sedins, Stamkos, Suter and Weber.

Here's what I see using the EHM Updater ; this list shows all NHLers whose CA is 160-200 (excluding the goalies)

EDIT - I've added the Manimal 4.2 CA in blue font

190 Sidney Crosby 190
180 Evgeni Malkin 175
170 Kris Letang 170
170 Steven Stamkos 178
170 Shea Weber 162
170 Phil Kessel 155
170 Ryan Suter 158
170 Nicklas Bäckström 174
170 Pavel Datsyuk 175
170 Ilya Kovalchuk 160
170 Zdeno Chára 174
170 Daniel Sedin 185
170 Henrik Sedin 185
165 Erik Karlsson 162
165 Claude Giroux 160
165 Patrick Kane 175
165 Duncan Keith 162
165 Jonathan Toews 175
165 Corey Perry 180
165 Chris Pronger 160
165 Martin Saint-Louis 175
165 John Tavares 165
165 Joe Thornton 170
165 Keith Yandle 165
165 Zach Parise 165
165 Mikko Koivu 163
165 Marian Gáborík 168
165 Anze Kopitar 175
165 Nicklas Lidström 175
160 David Backes 168
160 Patrice Bergeron 160
160 Dan Boyle 168
160 Drew Doughty 160
160 Ryan Getzlaf 175
160 Mike Green 154
160 Rick Nash 170
160 Dion Phaneuf 154
160 Brad Richards 170
160 Marc Savard 165
160 Jason Spezza 157
160 Eric Staal 173
160 Ryan Kesler 173
160 Joe Pavelski 160
160 Thomas Vanek 167
160 Jaromír Jágr 158
160 Tomás Plekanec 158
160 Loui Eriksson 163
160 Alexander Ovechkin 177
160 Alexander Edler 160
160 Tobias Enström 160

Here's the goalies...

190 Tim Thomas 188
190 Henrik Lundqvist 184
185 Ryan Miller 182
185 Pekka Rinne 181
180 Jonathan Quick 180
180 Jimmy Howard 165
180 Roberto Luongo 181
180 Jaroslav Halák 164
175 Carey Price 179
175 Niklas Bäckström 160
170 Brian Elliott 126
170 Tuukka Rask 155
170 Mike Smith 155
170 Miikka Kiprusoff 167
170 Marc-André Fleury 170
170 Jonas Hiller 170
165 Martin Brodeur 157
165 Cory Schneider 154
165 José Théodore 148
165 Cam Ward 175
165 Ondrej Pavelec 142
165 Tomás Vokoun 161
165 Nikolai Khabibulin 156
165 Semyon Varlamov 151
160 Craig Anderson 160
160 Josh Harding 125
160 James Reimer 146
160 Kari Lehtonen 162
160 Ilya Bryzgalov 168

ALSO there are another 41 players in Manimal 4.2 that are rated 160-170

Post by **nino33** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:59 am

batdad wrote: What are 11,12,13,14,15. I believe they are randomizers?.

-15 is 110-190
-14 is 90-160
-13 is 60-130

I didn't look at players rated -12 (40-80) or -11 (20-80)

Post by **nino33** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:44 am

I just noticed the player DOBs are the actual IRL DOBs (i.e. the CSD Patch is required, and a 2011 start-date)

Post by **nino33** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:01 am

Here's the earlier default/Manimal example comparisons with the numbers/data added from Daelh’s database (I did not include the 13 players with CAs below 63, and I did not include the retirees/regens) - this looks just at those players Contracted To and Playing For NHL teams at start-up

The default database has 762 players who are on an NHL team at start up...69% are rated below 140 for CA
Manimal 4.2 has 753 players on an NHL team at start-up...59% are rated below 140 for CA
Daelh 15-maj has 787 players on an NHL team at start-up...57% are rated below 140 for CA

There are 68 players in the default database with a starting CA between 160-200
There are 102 players in Manimal 4.2 with a starting CA between 160-200
There are 84 players in Daelh 15-maj with a starting CA between 160-200

In the default database there are 51 NHLers with a CA of 150-159.
In Manimal 4.2 there are 90 NHLers with a CA of 150-159.
In the Daelh 15-maj there are 81 NHLers with a CA of 150-159

The average CA in the default db is 125
The average CA in Manimal 4.2 is 135
The average CA in Daelh 15-maj is 136

In the default database there are 128 NHLers with a CA of 110-119.
in Manimal 4.2 there are 82 NHLers with a CA of 110-119.
In the Daelh 15-maj database there are 81 NHLers with a CA of 110-119.

In the default database there are 85 NHLers with a CA of 100-109.
in Manimal 4.2 there are 31 NHLers with a CA of 100-109.
In the Daelh 15-maj database there are 17 NHLers with a CA of 100-109.

The average OFF Role in the default db is 12.7
The average OFF Role in Manimal 4.2 is 13.8
The average OFF Role in Daelh 15-maj is 13.4

The average Passing rating in the default db is 12.4
The average Passing rating in Manimal 4.2 is 13.0
The average Passing rating in Daelh 15-maj is 13.1

The average Wristshot rating in the default db is 11.6
The average Wristshot rating in Manimal 4.2 is 12.3
The average Wristshot rating in Daelh 15-maj is 12.3

Post by **Manimal** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:01 am

batdad wrote: In particular the CHL. Right now Manimal's DB has most of the CHL leagues updated....and the new version will have drafts and prospects right through the 2012 drafts for at least the WHL ...

Sorry to dissapoint you but it is not certain that the WHL-draftees will be part of 5.0. I have added the top three rounds of OHL and QMJHL but not the WHL. Barzal is the only one right now that is in.
I have now retired from the editing so it is up to Alessandro (and Archi, to some extent) what gets done before the release

Post by **nino33** » Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:22 pm

I took a look at some specific Attributes (the visible Technical Attributes), comparing the averages for forwards only (G/D removed); I only looked at start-up NHLers

This data looks at all NHL forwards…

NHL Forward Technical Att Averages
[table][tr][th]Attribute[/th][th]Daelh 15-maj[/th][th]Manimal 4.2[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Checking[/td][td]12.8[/td][td]12.4[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Deflections[/td][td]11.8[/td][td]11.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Deking[/td][td]12.7[/td][td]11.9[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]FOs[/td][td]10.9[/td][td]11.0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]FOs (C only)[/td][td]14.2[/td][td]13.6[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Movement[/td][td]12.9[/td][td]12.5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Passing[/td][td]13.2[/td][td]13.9[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Pokecheck[/td][td]12.2[/td][td]11.1[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Positioning[/td][td]13.0[/td][td]11.8[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Slapshot[/td][td]11.9[/td][td]11.9[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Stickhandling[/td][td]13.2[/td][td]12.6[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Wristshot[/td][td]12.9[/td][td]13.1[/td][/tr][/table]

This data looks only at the top 60 NHL forwards (by CA)…

Top 60 NHL Forward Technical Att Averages
[table][tr][th]Attribute[/th][th]Daelh 15-maj[/th][th]Manimal 4.2[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Checking[/td][td]13.0[/td][td]13.4[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Deflections[/td][td]14.5[/td][td]14.2[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Deking[/td][td]16.4[/td][td]15.2[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]FOs[/td][td]12.4[/td][td]13.0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]FOs (C only)[/td][td]15.4[/td][td]15.0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Movement[/td][td]16.3[/td][td]15.7[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Passing[/td][td]16.7[/td][td]16.0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Pokecheck[/td][td]13.4[/td][td]12.8[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Positioning[/td][td]14.5[/td][td]13.1[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Slapshot[/td][td]15.5[/td][td]14.9[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Stickhandling[/td][td]16.9[/td][td]15.9[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Wristshot[/td][td]16.7[/td][td]16.5[/td][/tr][/table]

Post by **nino33** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:00 am

FYI I took a look at defenseman too http://www.ehmtheblueline.com/forums/vi ... 84#p146484

Post by **Manimal** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:32 pm

Daelh wrote: Last I updated all the rosters in CHL(canadian jr) and made a lot of CA/PA changes and attributes changes. There our range was like.

I have started to look at the Q and the O and my first thought is that the PA seems too high for lesser players.
Too many -15. I will look further into this

Post by **nino33** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:47 pm

Manimal wrote:I have started to look at the Q and the O and my first thought is that the PA seems too high for lesser players.
Too many -15.

I thought the same thing...I wonder what percentage of -15 rated players actually reach the upper levels? I wish I had the time to do some tests/research (i.e. start a few new games and check the actual PAs that are generated for these -15 players...when the range is 110-190, what percentage actually get 160-190 and what percentage get 140-159?)

While the game may only start with a handful of players rated 170+ I suspect after a few years there'd be over 100...

Daelh · Post by **Daelh** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:07 pm

In my experience only 10-15 percent of the players with -15 gets a PA of 170 or greater.

Post by **nino33** » Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:14 pm

Daelh wrote:In my experience only 10-15 percent of the players with -15 gets a PA of 170 or greater.

Hmmm...170 or greater is the -10 PA (170-200), which is described as "extremely rare top player, not available every year"

The -9 PA is 150-180 and described as "very rare, top 10 NHL prospect who can't miss"

MapleLeafs9 · Post by **MapleLeafs9** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:43 am

How far along is Manimal 5.0?

This is a great project you guys do, can't wait for it to be finished!

Post by **archibalduk** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:21 pm

Manimal has taken a brief look at Daehl's DB and suggests we import his attributes (but we'll leave the CA/PAs as they are). I'm going to run a couple of sims just to take a cursory look as we want to get the DB released sooner rather than later. The only thing that really stands out so far is that the Leafs seem a little overpowered - although that is based on just one sim thus far... Maybe it was a fluke.

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