Any Historic British or European Rosters?

[marksbros6]

Hi all, loving the work that has been done editing this game, currently updated the English Premier League rosters myself and am playing an engrossing 13/14 MK Lightning game.

I've recently got interested in the history of the british league and wondered if there were any mods out there for Superleague/BNL-era?

I know most of the modding work is focussed on the NHL (and I'm meaning to try the 96/97 mod to play as Rangers with 'The Great One') but the Brit leagues aren't very big and there are probably more than me who'd be interested in playing through them.

Superleague would be fun, circa late 90's when it was introduced. I'm sure I saw someone on here suggest there was a mod that had replaced the Elite League with the rules from one of the German leagues to simulate the Superleague rules.

Similarly would it be at all possible to set up leagues similar to the old Heineken Premiership/Division 1 with promotion/relegation? Basically hankering to play as the old MK Kings from my youth!

Would love to hear back from anyone who knows about the game, or any fans of Brit Hockey and the older teams!

[archibalduk]

Welcome to the site! Nice to see a fellow EPL fan! Do you get to many of the MK games? I'm a Guildford season ticket holder myself. There have been some very eventful games between the two teams at the Spectrum this season!

Unfortunately there aren't any historic rosters out there for the UK at the moment. However, there is CJ's 1998/99 Mod which covers the NHL (and I think additional North American leagues are in the works). I have been really busy updating the UK rosters for the 2013/14 update (no re-ratings; just adding all of the trades/moves, adding missing players and updating all of the non-playing staff) and also for Franchise Hockey Manager. That said, I have recently been thinking the same as you; it'd be really cool to have a set of ISL-era rosters for EHM. I think CJ's 1998/99 Mod would be the perfect starting point for this.

I was thinking that when I have some more time, I'd really like to start working on adding the ISL and BNL to the 1998/99 Mod. I should have my current UK roster work for EHM complete later this month or in early April. Similarly, I have nearly finished a major milestone with my FHM work (should be complete next weekend) and so I think next month would be an ideal time to start work on this (but my progress will be slow because I will need to split my time with work on my EHM editor). We have a tool for EHM which allows us to do virtually all editing work in Excel. Once the work is done, it could be imported into CJ's existing DB.

The late 90s era is of particular interest to me as that was when I started following hockey. The first game I ever went to see was Manchester Storm v Sheffield Steelers at the MEN Arena in late 1997. So I would love to coach my favourite players like Jeff Jablonski, Troy Neumeier and Rick Brebant. And of course 1998/99 was the season when Frank Pieterangelo joined us ( ). It would also be very cool to have the likes of David Longstaff, Tony Hand and Mike Morin in their youth (or thereabouts). Unfortunately it would be two years too late to include Fred Perlini.

With regards to the old Heineken Premier, BD1, etc, unfortunately it wouldn't be possible to add promotion/relegation to the British leagues. The only way to do it would be to use something like the Finnish leagues and place all of the British teams there. It is possible to do some simple rule swapping, but unfortunately we can't do full-blown league structure swapping (one user achieved it with Austria, but he never really fully explained the process of how he figured it out and he doesn't visit the site very much any more).

[marksbros6]

Hi Archi. I am an MK fan myself, don't live there anymore and have only really got back into hockey this season after becoming a bit disillusioned with supporting Premier League football! Typically I pick the season when the rink is being re-developed to start following my 'hometown' team! Looking forward to next season as I still get back to MK a lot to see family and would be easy to see a game every weekend.

I've been to a few away games this season though, and am off to Basingstoke in a bit for the last game of the (regular) season. Go LIGHTNING!

Guildford isnt too far away though and I'll do my best to pop down there sometime.

I first became aware of the sport in this country when the MK Kings formed when the Leisure Plaza rink was built. Back then before MK 'stole' Wimbledon FC there was no football to report on so the Kings got top-billing in the local papers. I remember the Superleague being talked about before I left MK, and lost track after that.

This year I've been looking back on the history, and can understand it a bit better than back then (I was 10 I think when the King's formed)! Would really like to coach a scenario with my 'hometown' team, sadly I think the Kings were 'on hiatus' (rink was closed) in the 98/99 season, but a Superleague mod would still be fun. The Hockey Annual for that season would be a good starting point I imagine!

Was that Steelers/Storm match you mention the one that set the (British League) attendance record?

[marksbros6]

Looking at it; Kings were back in the BNL from the 99/2000 season, so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to update the english teams from a 98/99 scenario to include the Kings myself if I was really set on managing them. Or looking at it they could go in with the '98/99 teams anyway as it looks like the BNL only had 9 teams in it that year?

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leag ... 81999.html

If you'd like a hand with it Arch let me know. I'd be limited myself due to job and real-life intruding. Plus I've not really done much editing before and have no idea how to rate players of that era not having seen much of them. Am a fast-study though and have done plentty of editing for my own purposes on FM before.

[archibalduk]

We have 12 spots in the EPL in EHM and, as you say, there's only 9 BNL teams in 1998. I completely agree that it would make sense to include the 1999 BNL teams to the game too. So we'd be looking at MK Kings, Solihull Blaze and Hull Thunder as the additional 3.

Hopefully I'll be ready to start looking at this in a few weeks' time. I'm really looking forward to this! I'll give you a shout when I get started on things.

Btw, I don't think it was the record-setting game I saw at Manchester. I do remember it being a big crowd though!

[archibalduk]

I've started looking into the 1998/99 UK rosters. We've got 10 EIHL slots and 12 EPL slots to fill. The BISL had 8 teams in 1998/99 and the BNL 9 (as we mentioned before). So here's the teams I propose:

EIHL (i.e. the BISL)
1. Ayr Scottish Eagles
2. Bracknell Bees
3. Cardiff Devils
4. London Knights
5. Manchester Storm
6. Newcastle Riverkings
7. Nottingham Panthers
8. Sheffield Steelers
9. Belfast Giants (2000/01 BISL)
10. Coventry Blaze or London Racers???

EPL (i.e. the BNL)
1. Basingtoke Bison
2. Edinburgh Capitals
3. Fife Flyers
4. Guildford Flames
5. Kingston Hawks
6. Paisley Pirates
7. Peterborough Pirates
8. Slough Jets
9. Telford Tigers
10. Hull Thunder (1999/00 BNL)
11. Milton Keynes Kings (1999/00 BNL)
12. Solihull Blaze (1999/00 BNL)

I'm not 100% sure which team to use for the 10th slot in the EIHL/BISL. Coventry joined the BNL in 2000/01 but they were essentially a relaunch of the Solihull Blaze. Alternatively there's the London Racers (joined the EIHL in 2003/04). I'd be reluctant to add an EPIHL team to the BISL because of the skill gap. I'm thinking the Blaze seeing as they're in the EIHL today. I expect they'll largely have a blank roster to start with in-game.

[marksbros6]

Hi archi, sorry for not replying sooner, havent checked the thread lately!

Regarding the BISL I'd not put the Racers in, seeing as they basically took over from the Knights as 'The London Team' in the Elite League. Part of the appeal of the Mod will be seeing how successful you can make the Knights and 'change history'. The mod can only be representative of the BISL/BNL as we are limited by the 'hardcoded' leagues from what I understand, but it should hopefully be close enough to give a 'feel' of that period in British Ice Hockey. Id not over-load London with 2 teams though (if memory serves its traditionally had problems supporting just the one 'big' team!)

For the BISL then there's the option of Coventry as you said. Aside from that maybe put Basingstoke back in the BISL as they'd only just dropped down a level that season I think? Other than that maybe have a team operating out of Braehead arena (I think Aye moved there eventually didn't they?) so perhaps have a 'representative' fantasy team from Scotland? (I do like Braehead Clan, just for having an awesome and fairly-unique Hockey name). If it's just looking for a team name that can be left blank to populate when a new game starts then there were plans for a 'Leeds Lasers' franchise, or I think before they moved to Coventry, Solihull were planning to re-locate to Birmingham at the NEC and run a team there? Birmingham Blaze maybe? I'd be tempted to make it another big arena-team, just depends if you'd prefer Coventry appearing earlier than real-life, Braehead from Scotland, or having teams in that never really got off the drawing board in a Leeds or Birmingham franchise.

As for the BNL teams; I'm glad to see the Kings there! I've done a bit of research in the Hockey Annual for that year and it seems that MK Kings did ice a side that year, so there is a roster available (though they were competing in the EPIHL, back when it was 3rd tier). For that matter London Knights played out of the Bladerunner/Planet Ice/Thunderdome for the start of the year, so we could include that as well maybe, with a move to the London Arena in October as in real life?

Solihull was also in the EPIHL that year, so maybe just add them and MK to the BNL for the mod (finished 1st and 2nd, so will likely prop-up the standings in a BNL season) and then one other of Blackburn Hawks, Chelmsford Chieftans or Invicta (finished 3rd - 5th respectivly)? Or Hull as you suggested (again it's going to 'represent' british ice hockey of the period as opposed to being a replica of the exact standings that year).

Let me know how I can help. I can see a lot of players having to be created as a quick check showed a lot of the older ones not being in the database. And I have no idea how to rate them!

[archibalduk]

Yeah I agree about the London teams. I like the sound of adding Braehead. I think that's a better solution than adding Coventry (seeing as they're essentially already in the BNL as the Solihull Barons).

I think I'd rather see Hull in the BNL seeing as they were in that league from 1999/00 onwards. That would then allow us to get the EPIHL set up correctly as a non-playable league with Invicta, Chelmsford, etc along with the ED1.

I have the rosters in a spreadsheet already. I think the starting point is to get the teams set up correctly in the DB and to see what British players currently exist in game. I'll need to check with Nino and CJ that I can borrow the DB and that they're happy for me to add the relevant teams.

And yes, we can add mid-season arena moves.

Yeah rating in EHM is a bit difficult (it's much easier in FHM!). I know the top players, but the rest will be case of looking at their stats/history and and how their teams performed. I'll have a think about how we could get this done together. I'll try and get back to you later this week or next about this.

[CJ]

I'll need to check with Nino and CJ that I can borrow the DB and that they're happy for me to add the relevant teams.

That's no problem at all to get a more accurate DB!

[nino33]

I'll need to check with Nino and CJ that I can borrow the DB and that they're happy for me to add the relevant teams.

That's no problem at all to get a more accurate DB!

I agree!

[archibalduk]

Thanks guys!

Let me know when there is a convenient time to borrow the DB and drop me an email with it. I'll also fix the player histories as well (so that they're correctly adjusted for the 2006 start date).

[marksbros6]

Tres cool!

This is going to be fun!

[archibalduk]

Nino has emailed the DB to me and I have set up the ISL and BNL. All of the teams already exist in the DB as defunct and so it was pretty quick and easy to get the teams in the correct leagues. I'm just running a 1 year sim to make sure there are no crashes (changing teams and leagues can sometimes cause instability - but it's usually if you rename existing teams, so we should be okay).

Something that has come to mind is that the foreigner limit in game for the EIHL is 10. However, the ISL teams tend to have around 15 - 20 imports.

[marksbros6]

Is there any way to change the league rules? I've seen it be suggested around here before?

Other than that...maybe re-classify some with GBR as a second nationality?

[archibalduk]

Is there any way to change the league rules? I've seen it be suggested around here before?

Other than that...maybe re-classify some with GBR as a second nationality?

Yeah it is possible to change the league rules. The easiest way would be to modify the ehm2007.exe file. We could then include the exe file with the DB so that anybody with the elicense version (which is almost everybody) can use the unrestricted rules.

Incorrect second nationalities is the softer option in that the exe won't need tweaking. But I think it'd make things feel less realistic. I'll see if I can figure out how to modify the exe correctly in the first instance.

The test sim was successful and there were no issues (I simmed until May of season 2). I have added some colours to each playable team (see screenshot below). They're very much in draft form and will need some adjusting. I have come across a very useful website which will help me finalise the colours for many teams: http://hockeyphotos.com/hockey_9899/

The next step is to set up the non-playable teams. This shouldn't take too long. The non-playable teams will consist of the Scottish National League, English Premier Ice Hockey League and English Division 1. Are you aware of any other leagues in existence in 1998/99? I think to start with we use the in-game ENL to house the EPIHL and ED1 teams.

Do you have any arena and attendance data in your Hockey Annual? If so, would you mind posting a list here for each of the playable teams? I think I have one or two annuals somewhere but the earliest one I have is from 2000/01. The 1998/99 annual is sold-out, but I have ordered the 1999/00 annual because I think that will have the data from the 1998/99 season (IIRC the annuals are always published at the beginning of the season and contain data from the previous season).

Anyhow, once I've got all the teams set up, I'll work on the arenas. There are also lots of players on the UK rosters already (presumably the 2006/07 rosters but I haven't looked yet). I think the easiest thing to do would be to delete them all from the DB. I think it would be less work than going through them all and figuring out where they were in the 1998/99 season. Also they'd all need their ratings downgraded and there would be the risk of duplicates when I import the 1998/99 rosters.

[marksbros6]

Sounds cool. Yeah the 99/00 annual is what I have and it covers the 98/99 season. There are some attendance figures for the season but not all teams, just a representation. But this should give a ballpark starting point?

[archibalduk]

Sounds cool. Yeah the 99/00 annual is what I have and it covers the 98/99 season. There are some attendance figures for the season but not all teams, just a representation. But this should give a ballpark starting point?

Yeah anything you have would be really helpful.

[marksbros6]

if you PM me an e-mail address i'll see about putting together a spreadsheet with attendances and capacities while you wait for your copy?

[marksbros6]

Just noticed that 'Kingston Hawks' became Hull Thunder in the 99/00 season?

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leag ... 82000.html

Maybe put Dundee in the BNL instead? 00/01 season?

[archibalduk]

Of course they did! I have replaced them with Dundee like you suggest.

I have improved the team colours for the ISL and ENL teams. I'm sure they'll need more polish, but hopefully they're a good start. I have also set up the arenas for the ISL teams; I just need to do the same for the BNL now. All of the SNL, EPIHL and ED1 teams are also in the DB, but I don't plan to get their colours or arenas set right now.

I'm just working on the rosters now. All I need to do is correct some birthplaces and then they'll be ready to import (obviously they have no ratings right now).

[marksbros6]

So pretty much just rating to do after that then? Cool.

the Hockey Annual lists the top 3 'stars' for each team in the season, so at least we can have a good idea who the top 3-rated players for each team should be?

I'll pop on to the MK Ice Hockey boards and see if i can scope out any Kings and Peterborough fans on there who might help having seen those teams play?

Soz for not being in touch sooner today, but just got back from Basingstoke...again. Saw Oxford clinch ENL D.2 title which was very cool. Also saw the Premier League Cup and EPIHL Playoff trophy in the cabinet there. Was pretty cool, don't get the trophies displayed in the foyer when you go to a football ground!

[archibalduk]

There's still a bit more to do before the rating. I need to sort out the arenas for the BNL teams (your spreadsheet contains all the info I need), fix some birthplaces for some players (won't take long) and create the non-playing staff for the ISL and BNL (GMs, head coaches, etc). Then on to the rating!

I don't expect the rating work to be completed very quickly. I'm going to remove the non 1998 players from the DB first and also populate the main North American and Euro rosters. Then after that I'll get the CAs, PAs and Def/Off Roles done. Hopefully I can get some basic CAs done reasonably soon (end of May maybe?). Any info you can find about Peterborough, MK or any other teams would be of huge help. The top 3 sounds really good too (I think my copy of the annual was dispatched today so I'll check that out too).

I'm really looking forward to getting the basic initial ratings completed. It's nice to have someone to discuss this and help with - usually I do the modern UK work on my own.

Once the UK rosters are properly finished, I think it would be neat to go through season by season and add all of the players who have played in the ISL/EIHL/BNL/EPL over the years.

[marksbros6]

Would be good to be able to play the Superleague through to present-day and see where things would have ended up. Is it possible to change the League reputation at all? I seem to remember looking at the 'extinct' BISL competition in the database and it was ranked a few points above the Elite league in 'rep' IIRC? Would that effect the caliber of player you could attract to the league for a long-term game?

One thing I've noticed playing as MK where I've edited the rosters myself is that some of the imports don't want to re-sign at the end of their contracts, whereas it's a bit more common in real life. I'm guessing in-game they're too good for the rep of the EPIHL-level teams?

[marksbros6]

Looking in the TBL database the Elite League is rated an '8' and EPIHL a '6'.

The Extinct BISL is a '7' and BNL '5'.

Don't know how these ratings affect the leagues? ECHL is rated a '10' mind... NHL naturally '20' and KHL '18'.

I always get the impression that BISL was a higher standard than Elite League though so maybe that should be jiggled as well, though you'll have a better idea once you've got the players rated and see who will re-sign after a play-through I suppose?

Going to have a play with the TBL MK Lightning stats: see how the League 'rep', Loyalty stats and fave-club affects who will re-sign?

[grazza]

Yeah Superleague significantly higher standard probably not far off DEL or AHL. Ayr Scottish Eagles beat AK Bars Kazan the then Russian Champions home and away in the European hockey league in 1998. That was the early days and the league did tail off a bit over time but still a higher standard than elite but not very stable and we are much better with the conference system in the elite today.