Any Historic British or European Rosters?

[marksbros6]

Cheers for the input Grazz. It confirms what I've been reading, I've kinda missed the whole Superleague era!

I've been playing with the League rep setting and it doesn't seem to make much difference in any event. I've been fiddling and starting new seasons and it seems to have no effect on whether a player wants to re-sign a contract? Even whacked the EPIHL's rep up to '20' and no dice?

I shall fiddle around with Player reps next and see what effect that has? Could come in useful for when we are rating the imports in our ersatz 'BISL' and 'BNL'? Don't want all these imports to up and leave once we've got them at the right teams!

[archibalduk]

You're absolutely right and in fact this is something I set up when I was getting the teams in the right leagues and adding the missing teams. I have set it up as follows:

BISL (EIHL): 7
BNL (EPIHL): 5
EPIHL: 3
ED1: 2
SNL: 2

These settings also reflect the reps of the defunct BISL and BNL already in the DB. Also, it makes sense to increase the EIHL from 6 to 7 to reflect the higher level of talent it attracted. Equally, for the EPIHL from 3 to 5 to reflect that all but a very small number of top Brits played in this league because of the huge numbers of imports in the BISL.

Looking in the TBL database the Elite League is rated an '8' and EPIHL a '6'.

This is very interesting. I hadn't appreciated that the reps had been increased in the modern DB. It makes me wonder whether my reps above should be increased. Given that the ECHL in the 1998 DB is a 10, it might make sense to increase the BISL/EIHL to a 9.

One thing I've noticed playing as MK where I've edited the rosters myself is that some of the imports don't want to re-sign at the end of their contracts, whereas it's a bit more common in real life. I'm guessing in-game they're too good for the rep of the EPIHL-level teams?

[...]

Going to have a play with the TBL MK Lightning stats: see how the League 'rep', Loyalty stats and fave-club affects who will re-sign?

This is a long-standing issue with the game. Players are almost always unwilling to re-sign. It seems to relate to the players' Reputation (I would expect the Current Reputation rating is the key one). My brother once experimented with the Saved Game Editor and found that by decreasing the players' Current Rep they were willing to re-sign with the team. This is something I have always wanted to experiment with in EHM and try to fix for the roster updates. But I've never had the chance. If you have the time and willingness to experiment then I'd be extremely interested to know your findings.

For the North American Leagues we normally set the Current Rep to their Current Ability (IIRC) and the Home and World Rep slightly lower. Or something like that - I can't remember for sure. Anyhow, this doesn't seem to work for the Euro leagues. I imagine the Rep settings need to be set lower.

If you need help/guidance on how to edit player Reps in saved games then let me know and I'll explain how to go about this.

I always get the impression that BISL was a higher standard than Elite League though so maybe that should be jiggled as well, though you'll have a better idea once you've got the players rated...

Yeah it definitely was. This was mostly because teams offered much higher salaries than now (hence why the league and many teams (e.g. Manchester) were unsustainable in the long term). IIRC the EIHL salary cap is around £7,500 per week which equates to about £260k per season (assuming players get paid for 8 months of the season). In reality the salary cap isn't enforced and teams such as Nottingham and Belfast exceed this substantially. However, compare this £260k cap with the £400k cap that was in effect during the time of the BISL. And teams such as Manchester in fact had salaries much higher than the cap! Taking into account inflation, £400k in 2000 is the equivalent of £570k today. So the salary cap in the BISL was over double the EIHL salary cap.

Hence the BISL was able to attract players of a much higher calibre. This in turn meant many of the top Brits had to play in the BNL and hence the level of talent in that league was arguably somewhat higher than the EPIHL is today.

Anyhow, this all has a bearing on the Current Ability ranges we'll need to use when rating the players. They will need to be a bit higher than what we use for the modern rosters. I'll need to have a think about this. Once I've come up with a draft set of ranges, I'll post them in here (along with the ranges we use for the modern DB so you can see how I propose to change them).

[archibalduk]

That was the early days and the league did tail off a bit over time but still a higher standard than elite but not very stable and we are much better with the conference system in the elite today.

I couldn't agree more. The league is better than ever IMO. The level seems to be better than it was only a few years ago and the conference system has certainly made the weaker teams (except Edinburgh) more competitive.

I've been playing with the League rep setting and it doesn't seem to make much difference in any event. I've been fiddling and starting new seasons and it seems to have no effect on whether a player wants to re-sign a contract? Even whacked the EPIHL's rep up to '20' and no dice?

I shall fiddle around with Player reps next and see what effect that has? Could come in useful for when we are rating the imports in our ersatz 'BISL' and 'BNL'? Don't want all these imports to up and leave once we've got them at the right teams!

I suspect the players' Reps will have a bigger effect than the League Rep settings. There is a known issue with EHM whereby the League Rep doesn't really have that much of an effect. The game is hardcoded to be NHL-centric. There is a good thread from Primis somewhere which explains various experiments he did. Basically it shows that if you drop the NHL Rep down to 1 and increase the Reps of other leagues, players would sooner rot on free agency than sign with other leagues (even if they have a 20 Rep).

[marksbros6]

I'll have a play with the Player reps then.

Interestingly noticed on one of my older games that Janne Jokila has gone from not wanting to sign, to wanting to sign (but now he 'doesn't believe the club can meet his demands') Lol (He's probably off in real-life for that matter).

I'll keep looking. Will be a pain if we get some decent rosters, players performing to a high standard, and everyone bunks off at contract renewal time!

[marksbros6]

This is a long-standing issue with the game. Players are almost always unwilling to re-sign. It seems to relate to the players' Reputation (I would expect the Current Reputation rating is the key one). My brother once experimented with the Saved Game Editor and found that by decreasing the players' Current Rep they were willing to re-sign with the team. This is something I have always wanted to experiment with in EHM and try to fix for the roster updates. But I've never had the chance. If you have the time and willingness to experiment then I'd be extremely interested to know your findings.

For the North American Leagues we normally set the Current Rep to their Current Ability (IIRC) and the Home and World Rep slightly lower. Or something like that - I can't remember for sure. Anyhow, this doesn't seem to work for the Euro leagues. I imagine the Rep settings need to be set lower.

If you need help/guidance on how to edit player Reps in saved games then let me know and I'll explain how to go about this.

Just been using the pre-game editor and starting new games. It IS related to player reps. Just cut Jokila's reps from 60/60/50 down to 20s and all of a sudden he's happy to sign a new contract on start-up!

[Manimal]

I think league rep is more about the level of players that are interested in signing with you.

I don't think the research Primis did on league rep looked at lower leagues like the ECHL or the UK ones.

[marksbros6]

Make that 'Home Rep' being key?

Set to 20/60/50 and contracts are being discussed.

I think it might have to do with wages? With a rep of 60 he's expecting over £19'000, on the lower rep it's £11'000 to £12'000 and he's happy to take that?

[archibalduk]

By way of an update, I have:

- Removed all non-NHL players/staff from the DB;
- Fixed the player career histories so that the 1997/98 histories appear in game as 2005/06, etc (eventually I'll add career histories for all the UK players - I have them all in a spreadsheet);
- Added as many non-playing staff for all UK leagues (only going by Elite Prospects; I haven't checked the annual yet);
- Added some affiliations;
- Added an Under 19 league with teams for every ISL and BNL team (and all real life U19 teams from 98/99) as I think we'll need those when adding players from future seasons.
- Added all 98/99 UK players to the DB. The rosters consist of all players who played from that season. Once I've rated them, I'll need to move those players to the non-UK rosters on which they started the season.


I'm now working on the three Canadian Major Junior leagues. I'll then go back to the UK leagues and implement all of the arena info Mark recently provided and I'll get the mid-season arena moves done (Belfast, London(?) and Nottingham come to mind). I'll also try to get some U12, U14 and U16 teams sorted (again, for the future season players).

[marksbros6]

Looking good Arch.

I was in the middle of a lengthy report on my experiment with Player Reps/the Re-signing 'bug'... then I had to go put some money in the bloody electricity meter... Bugger!

The short version, using my MK game (TBL 6.1) and Janne Jokila as an example:

Janne started on a rep of 60/60/50 on my database. In-season he was my top scorer, putting up some 20-odd goals, we won the League and were runners-up in the playoffs and cup.

Janne wouldn't re-sign. He 'wanted to stay', 'wanted to negociate a new contract' but 'didn't think the club could meet his terms'. Using the save-game editor his rep had actually decreased by 'half a point' (approx 59.5) which was news to me! I'd assumed his good season had sky-rocketed his rep to the point where he was too 'big' for the EPL.

Conclusions?

As the database has evolved it's apparent that players (particularly Imports from higher-rep leagues and former draftees) while being moved to the correct team and league, have not had their reps adjusted to suit. (NOT A MOAN: frankly everyone does well to just get the rosters correct for each new season!)

The rep seems to relate to how much money the player is allocated in wages on start-up (Janne doesn't have a wage set in the editor, his starting wage generated by the game is £17500 a year). When re-negociating they are asking for even more than that it seems?

Changing the rep on start-up means that Janne only earns between 12000 and 14000. He is also willing to re-negociate on start-up as well. This is for a 'Rep' ranging from 20-30.

Moving Forward

I'll experiment with the Reps some more, run some test seasons to see how lower starting reps for imports change over time (I suspect they won't change drastically) and affect whether imports can be re-signed when their contracts are expiring. I'll do this for the Elite and EPL.

Once a baseline for Rep is established for the english Leagues imports hopefully this can inform the 98/99 rosters or at least be a starting point.

Also Arch: I'm not sure if it would be possible as a project to look through the TBL rosters using the updater and seeing if any other player on the EPL rosters (and Elite once ive established a base-line) are 'over-rated' rep-wise as per Janne and Laseck are for MK? It might be an idea to try to re-rate the imports so that they will at least entertain re-signing, or signing for another team in the league. I have a sneaky suspicion (though I've not played that far) that they'll just sit in free-agency as is.

Any idea what a top-line goal-scorer in the EPL should be earning? I don't think any of my Brits are into even the low five-figure salaries?

[archibalduk]

As the database has evolved it's apparent that players (particularly Imports from higher-rep leagues and former draftees) while being moved to the correct team and league, have not had their reps adjusted to suit. (NOT A MOAN: frankly everyone does well to just get the rosters correct for each new season!)

Not taken as a moan! Actually, I adjusted the Reps of many UK players in summer 2012 and early 2013 when I re-rated their CAs. However, I abandoned this work because it needed some in-depth testing of how the Reps affect their willingness to re-sign (something that has been on my to-do list for a year now but has always been low priority to other more pressing tasks). As mentioned, it seems the way in which we set up Reps for NA-based players doesn't work for Euro-based players.

For NHL players, the Reps are set up like this:

Home: CA
Current: CA - 5
World: CA - 20

For example, Brooks Orpik has a Current Ability of 165. His Reps are therefore:

Home: 165 (i.e. the same as his CA)
Current: 160 (i.e. 165 - 5 = 160)
World: 145 (i.e. 165 - 20 = 145)

In the EPL, the CA ranges from 20 - 50 (30 being the CA of an "average" player). In the EIHL it's 20 - 90 (30 being the average). Incidentally, Jokila actually has a CA of 65 which places him above the range of the EPL in terms of CA.

I don't know if this guidance might be helpful:

Home Reputation
How good he is reputed to be by people in the country where he is from. This usually be similar to his ability, unless he is inconsistent or unproven. It will also be the same as current reputation if the player is at a club in his own country. Overhyped prospects might have a higher home reputation than their actual ability or potential suggest.

Current Reputation
How good he is reputed to be by people in the country where he is currently playing. This usually be similar to his ability, unless he is inconsistent or unproven. It will also be the same as home reputation if the player is at a club in his own country. Overhyped prospects might have a higher current reputation than their actual ability or potential suggest.

World Reputation
How good he is reputed to be by people on a worldwide basis. For most players, world reputation will be below 100 – only well-known, NHL-level players will be over 100. As a very rough guide, world reputation will usually be about three-quarters of the current reputation. Overhyped prospects might have a slightly higher world reputation than their actual ability or potential suggest.

Changing the rep on start-up means that Janne only earns between 12000 and 14000. He is also willing to re-negociate on start-up as well. This is for a 'Rep' ranging from 20-30.

You could try using the Saved Game Editor to edit the player's Rep in your saved game. By gradually decreasing the Rep and re-loading your game to see the effect, you might find out at which point the player becomes willing to re-sign.

Also Arch: I'm not sure if it would be possible as a project to look through the TBL rosters using the updater and seeing if any other player on the EPL rosters (and Elite once ive established a base-line) are 'over-rated' rep-wise as per Janne and Laseck are for MK? It might be an idea to try to re-rate the imports so that they will at least entertain re-signing, or signing for another team in the league. I have a sneaky suspicion (though I've not played that far) that they'll just sit in free-agency as is.

Once we've figured out what sort of range the Reps should be, I can easily implement this into the TBL Rosters (and the 1998 DB). It has always been a case of simply finding time to figure out the appropriate settings. Your research will be extremely useful for both roster projects.

Any idea what a top-line goal-scorer in the EPL should be earning? I don't think any of my Brits are into even the low five-figure salaries?

I have been doing quite a lot of research into this for FHM. It's very hard to quantify because imports typically receive various benefits in addition to their salary, such as university sponsorship, free housing, utility bill allowance, free car, healthcare, etc. So this gives their salaries added value. It is partly for this reason why the top British players earn more in terms of net salary than the imports (they don't necessarily get all of these benefits - they just get money instead).

It is also worth noting that players are usually on an 8 month contract (i.e. they don't get paid during the summer). Some lucky ones are however on a full 52 week contract. The figures quoted below are based on a 52 week salary because I think EHM uses this model rather than 8 month salaries.

As a rough guide:

EIHL
- Robert Dowd is allegedly the highest paid player in the league and apparently earns around £1,200 - £1,500 per week. That's £62,400 - £78,000 per annum.
- The average salary in the EIHL is approx £500 per week = £26,000 per annum. However, this is misleading because of the big gap in wealth between the richest and poorest teams. The average salary on the richest teams is much higher than on the poorest teams. For example, the highest paid player for Fife in 2012/13 apparently earned £500 per week (but of course he probably got free accommodation, etc which increases the overall value of his contract).

EPIHL
- The top EPIHL players earn approx £800 per week plus various expenses/benefits (e.g. housing, utility bills, tuition fees, sometimes cars, etc). So that's £41,600 per annum plus expenses/benefits.
- Ignoring players on junior contracts or pay to play contracts (e.g. most Slough players pay to play), the bottom end of the salary range is approx £200 per week = £10,400 per annum.

[marksbros6]

Wow, £41,600? I'll have a look through the database to see if anyone is actually on there. Stanno was highest paid on about £19,500 over my season!

I'll keep playing about with the Reps and see what happens, I've copied the database to a new folder to have a play with.

Don't suppose there's a chance to get a look at the 98/99 database as it stands is there? If you've got the rosters set at the second.

[archibalduk]

Wow, £41,600? I'll have a look through the database to see if anyone is actually on there. Stanno was highest paid on about £19,500 over my season!

In reality they'd earn two thirds of that seeing as they only get paid for 8 months. I can't remember in EHM whether contracts are 12 months or 8 months. I'm guessing they're 12.

Also, it's worth keeping in mind that EHM uses 2006 finances. I used an inflation calculator to see what £41.6k in 2014 was worth in 2006 - the answer is that it's around about £33.7k in 2006. Two thirds of that value is £22.5k - so if we're hitting that sort of wage in the EPL in EHM then that's probably about right.

Another thing is that these are the very top teams paying this sort of money and it's only a very small number of players (e.g. Kristoffersson at Guildford is likely on this sort of money). Tony Hand is apparently also on a similar wage - but he is player/coach.

Don't suppose there's a chance to get a look at the 98/99 database as it stands is there? If you've got the rosters set at the second.

Yes, of course. I'll send you a copy once I've finished working on importing the NA rosters and setting up the arenas. Hopefully I'll have this done within the next few days or so.

[archibalduk]

Btw, I saw this interesting book (interesting for a hockey geek like me anyhow ) chronicling the history of British hockey teams and their arenas from the pre-1900s up until 2005: Homes of British Ice Hockey

It's only a tenner new (including postage) from one of the sellers on Amazon and so I've placed an order. Other than being a fascinating read (), I think it'll be really useful for our 1998 DB.

[marksbros6]

Would it shock you to learn I've already got it?

#guiltyascharged

Blimey this modding lark is turning into a full-time job! Lol

[archibalduk]

Would it shock you to learn I've already got it?

#guiltyascharged

Blimey this modding lark is turning into a full-time job! Lol

Haha! You're one step ahead of me!

[archibalduk]

Just for the heck of it, here's a screenshot showing the now imported jersey numbers, the team colours and some sample logos:

[marksbros6]

Quality! Was going to ask about logos and such but guessing that's all in hand!

In the interests of parity you'd not have a Kings screenshot would you? Lol

[archibalduk]

Of course! See below.

I just did the two logos to test it out. I'll leave the rest until a later date.

[marksbros6]

Looking good mate!

[Mighty Knight]

As a Knights fan, i'm super excited for this update! Paul Rushforth, Trevor Robbins, Neal Martin, those names bring back some memories! If there is any help an idiot like me can provide, feel free to ask!

[archibalduk]

As a Knights fan, i'm super excited for this update! Paul Rushforth, Trevor Robbins, Neal Martin, those names bring back some memories! If there is any help an idiot like me can provide, feel free to ask!

Actually, there is! If you're interested and, if you willing to do so, it'd be great if you could provide me with a list of how you would rank the players in order of defensive and offensive skill. So, taking all of the defencemen, put them in order of overall defensive skill and then a separate list of the defencemen put in order of offensive skill (and then do the two lists for the forwards too). It doesn't have to be precise, but just an idea of what line each player would be placed on if you were looking solely at offensive skill and then solely at defensive skill.

It would be much better somebody like yourself doing this rather than me relying on my limited knowledge of that era, stats and books.

_____________________________________________________________________

On a separate note, my Homes of British Ice Hockey book arrived today. What a cracking book! It has absolutely everything needed to things set up in the DB (right down to rink measurements and how much standing and seating there was). Plus, it's an interesting book for a hockey geek like myself!

[marksbros6]

Great, can't work out how to post tables on here? Oh well...

Arch: Simmed a few games usuing your database. Got generally similar results, even when adding a GM to each team at start-up?

Glad you like the book, it is a fun, if geeky read!

I'm still waiting for 'approval' on the MK Ice hockey forum, but once I'm in I'll start canvassing opinion on the Kings/Pirates etc, as you suggest above.

[Mighty Knight]

As a Knights fan, i'm super excited for this update! Paul Rushforth, Trevor Robbins, Neal Martin, those names bring back some memories! If there is any help an idiot like me can provide, feel free to ask!

Actually, there is! If you're interested and, if you willing to do so, it'd be great if you could provide me with a list of how you would rank the players in order of defensive and offensive skill. So, taking all of the defencemen, put them in order of overall defensive skill and then a separate list of the defencemen put in order of offensive skill (and then do the two lists for the forwards too). It doesn't have to be precise, but just an idea of what line each player would be placed on if you were looking solely at offensive skill and then solely at defensive skill.

It would be much better somebody like yourself doing this rather than me relying on my limited knowledge of that era, stats and books.

I'll give it a go mate, I was around 11/12 in '99 so i'll have to do some research, but i'll try and rig something up for you!

[archibalduk]

I'll give it a go mate, I was around 11/12 in '99 so i'll have to do some research, but i'll try and rig something up for you!

That'd be great. Thank you.

[archibalduk]

I have split off our discussion about League/Team Reps to a separate thread: http://www.ehmtheblueline.com/forums/vi ... 73#p171373

I've been thinking about the CA range we want to use for the UK leagues. Here's how the CAs look for the 2013/14 TBL Rosters:

[table][tr][th]League[/th][th]Poor[/th][th]Average[/th][th]Good[/th][th]Top[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]NHL[/td][td]100[/td][td]120[/td][td]160[/td][td]190[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AHL[/td][td]70[/td][td]85[/td][td]100[/td][td]120[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DEL[/td][td]50[/td][td]70[/td][td]90[/td][td]115[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ECHL[/td][td]55[/td][td]65[/td][td]75[/td][td]90[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]EIHL[/td][td]20[/td][td]40[/td][td]65[/td][td]90[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]EPIHL[/td][td]20[/td][td]30[/td][td]40[/td][td]50[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]NIHL-1[/td][td]10[/td][td]20[/td][td]25[/td][td]30[/td][/tr][/table]

With this in mind, here's what I was thinking for the UK leagues in the 1998 DB:

[table][tr][th]League[/th][th]Poor[/th][th]Average[/th][th]Good[/th][th]Top[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]ISL[/td][td]50[/td][td]65[/td][td]85[/td][td]105[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]BNL[/td][td]20[/td][td]40[/td][td]50[/td][td]65[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]EPL[/td][td]20[/td][td]30[/td][td]35[/td][td]40[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ED1[/td][td]10[/td][td]20[/td][td]25[/td][td]30[/td][/tr][/table]

So this would place the ISL ever so slightly lower than the DEL. A "poor" ISL player (50 CA) would compare with an above "average" EIHL player (40 CA). I think this makes sense seeing as the quality of the ISL was much higher than the EIHL and was broadly comparable with the DEL. I'm mindful that I don't want to overrate the ISL and make it disproportionate to the rest of the hockey world in the DB. Hence I was in two minds as to whether a "poor" ISL player should have a 45 or 50 CA. I'm leaning towards 50 because of how few British players were in the league and it'll ensure that only the very top Brits from the BNL could make it in the ISL (which is how it should be).

As for the BNL, it makes sense to make the "Top" players equivalent to "Good" EIHL players. When you take away the top 10 or so Brits (on the assumption they're ISL material - e.g. Tony Hand and David Longstaff) then I think you're left with the sort of players we'd regard as "Good" EIHL players. I think the average and lower end of the range of the BNL is broadly comparable to the EIHL/EIPHL. Equally, the EPL and ED1 are broadly comparable to the NIHL-1.

Let me know what you think.