Unrealistic Demands to Move Up In the Draft

Marmoset · Post by **Marmoset** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:51 am

Has anyone else find that the asking price from other teams to move up in the draft is significantly unbalanced?

As the Leafs at the 2015 draft, I had the 4th pick and the 26th pick (from Nashville). I like that I could not trade #4 and a couple so-so prospects for #1 and Connor McDavid - sometimes the old EHM would let you do things like that, and maybe that's why I now have the opposite problem. I also wanted Rantanen and he was slipping in the draft, and so I tried to get a pick in the teens. I was offering my #26, a 2nd, and a 3rd, and was being refused by everyone. As I got a little more frustrated, I got to the point where I offered the #26, another 1st (2016), a late 2nd and another pick for #18 - and was still being outright refused. I had to offer about 3 future 1sts to get the other team to seriously consider the offer.

However, it gets weirder. I decided to try offering players instead. So I offered #26 and David Jones (previously acquired from Calgary) for #18, and it was immediately accepted!

This very frustrating for me because the draft is my favorite part of this game, and being so restricted at the draft takes a lot of the fun out of it. I know this is an early access game, but this might be enough to make me put the game aside for a while until it gets cleaned up. Overall my first season went quite well and I didn't have some of the problems I've seen reported. (For example, Nylander and other prospects seem to be developing just fine. Matt Finn is developing the way I'd hoped the real Matt Finn would have this year).

I'm curious if other people have encountered similar issues.

SirMichaelJordan · Post by **SirMichaelJordan** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:23 am

TBH, I don't think none of that is unrealistic at all.

The team that accepted the player over the picks probably weren't looking for picks but was looking for the type of player you offered.

Beggs74 · Post by **Beggs74** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:38 am

Marmoset wrote:Has anyone else find that the asking price from other teams to move up in the draft is significantly unbalanced?

As the Leafs at the 2015 draft, I had the 4th pick and the 26th pick (from Nashville). I like that I could not trade #4 and a couple so-so prospects for #1 and Connor McDavid - sometimes the old EHM would let you do things like that, and maybe that's why I now have the opposite problem. I also wanted Rantanen and he was slipping in the draft, and so I tried to get a pick in the teens. I was offering my #26, a 2nd, and a 3rd, and was being refused by everyone. As I got a little more frustrated, I got to the point where I offered the #26, another 1st (2016), a late 2nd and another pick for #18 - and was still being outright refused. I had to offer about 3 future 1sts to get the other team to seriously consider the offer.

However, it gets weirder. I decided to try offering players instead. So I offered #26 and David Jones (previously acquired from Calgary) for #18, and it was immediately accepted!

This very frustrating for me because the draft is my favorite part of this game, and being so restricted at the draft takes a lot of the fun out of it. I know this is an early access game, but this might be enough to make me put the game aside for a while until it gets cleaned up. Overall my first season went quite well and I didn't have some of the problems I've seen reported. (For example, Nylander and other prospects seem to be developing just fine. Matt Finn is developing the way I'd hoped the real Matt Finn would have this year).

I'm curious if other people have encountered similar issues.

Yes I've noticed that it's virtually impossible to move up. I tried to swap a 27th along with a really good package for a 15-24 and not one team would negotiate. The trading AI is way better than 07, the fact that you can't exploit it can only be a good thing.
One thing I'm slightly disappointed about is the depth of the drafts, I'm finding that beyond the first 20 or so picks there's hardly anyone worth drafting. I'm using the Manimal 7.3 rosters.

Satyr · Post by **Satyr** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:13 am

Well, there are a few good players who don't make the first 200, but I'm sure the CA/PA is random for those guys. I found a Finnish guy who was rated a 3rd liner and he turned out to be a very nice PK guy.

But you have to find them by scouting and some luck.

Daelh · Post by **Daelh** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:57 am

Yes I agree with Satyr. Its not very realistic that you can find first liners in the seventh round EVERY draft like in 2007. Its more realistic that most of the players beyound the first round are long shots and will probably never make it with few exceptions. Ive found a couple of europeans in late rounds that looks like they can fit in my lineup down the road, but its not realistic to find a Crosby or Ovechkin in the seventh round.

Sixth rounder

Seventh rounder

Fourth rounder

Fifth rounder

These guys are by no means stars, but down the line with the right development can fit in the lineup in depths roles or maybe some top minutes, so there is some interesting players in the late rounds to. You just have to look for them.

Satyr · Post by **Satyr** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:43 am

Before the game was updated to 15.0.2, I traded the 17th + 30th + Kapanen for the 1st overall. The board and fans went crazy btw

Marmoset · Post by **Marmoset** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:34 pm

Thanks for the feedback. I actually tried getting a pick in the teens with about 5 teams and not just one, and none of them would even talk to me until the offers became crazy.

I also found something even stranger; I loaded a save and went back to the draft and tried a couple of things, and I found that trying to move up lower down in the draft seemed even more unbalanced. As an example, I offered three 4th round picks (2 slightly later, one future) to move up for a higher 4th round pick, and I was completely dismissed by the other GM.

For me, the problem isn't simply that the other teams wouldn't make the trade, it's that they outright refused the offer and didn't even ask to negotiate. I understand that not all teams will want to deal, but to me it seems like it's an issue with the game itself rather than specific teams or GMs. Then there's the fact a mediocre player got the deal done, while a juicy package of picks couldn't.

On the other hand, as I mentioned with McDavid and as I see in posts above, I agree that it's good that I can't acquire a superstar or the 1st overall for a package of mediocre assets as in the old game. In 2007 low-round picks were overvalued, it just seems maybe the correction has gone too far the other way. I'm sure these types of things will work themselves in various updates.

SirMichaelJordan · Post by **SirMichaelJordan** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:46 pm

Marmoset wrote:Thanks for the feedback. I actually tried getting a pick in the teens with about 5 teams and not just one, and none of them would even talk to me until the offers became crazy.

I also found something even stranger; I loaded a save and went back to the draft and tried a couple of things, and I found that trying to move up lower down in the draft seemed even more unbalanced. As an example, I offered three 4th round picks (2 slightly later, one future) to move up for a higher 4th round pick, and I was completely dismissed by the other GM.

For me, the problem isn't simply that the other teams wouldn't make the trade, it's that they outright refused the offer and didn't even ask to negotiate. I understand that not all teams will want to deal, but to me it seems like it's an issue with the game itself rather than specific teams or GMs. Then there's the fact a mediocre player got the deal done, while a juicy package of picks couldn't.

On the other hand, as I mentioned with McDavid and as I see in posts above, I agree that it's good that I can't acquire a superstar or the 1st overall for a package of mediocre assets as in the old game. In 2007 low-round picks were overvalued, it just seems maybe the correction has gone too far the other way. I'm sure these types of things will work themselves in various updates.

What were the team's needs though?

Its not unrealistic for a team to value a player that will give them depth now over some late round picks that won't be able to contribute for them (or if ever) for 3-4 years or so.

If this was a team looking for picks them I would say we have a problem. I rather the AI behave this way than to just being able to throw unneeded picks at them for a trade that the user wants.

I suggest there should be interest stars for draft picks.

Marmoset · Post by **Marmoset** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:52 pm

SirMichaelJordan wrote:What were the team's needs though?

Its not unrealistic for a team to value a player that will give them depth now over some late round picks that won't be able to contribute for them (or if ever) for 3-4 years or so.

If this was a team looking for picks them I would say we have a problem. I rather the AI behave this way than to just being able to throw unneeded picks at them for a trade that the user wants.

I suggest there should be interest stars for draft picks.

As far as I can tell, team needs don't seem to matter. While not every team needs picks, in real life normally no team is going to refuse to even discuss an offer, unless it's a very high pick like McDavid. In the real NHL draft we regularly see a team move up something like 8 spots in the first round for their later 1st and a 2nd. If I'm offering twice as much and no team will even talk to me, it doesn't seem realistic.

And then there's the fact an average NHL forward seems to be worth more than a collection of first, second, and third round picks.

My issue is not that the AI wouldn't accept a trade I wanted to make, it's that unless I made offers that are totally unrealistic it wouldn't even talk to me. I feel like the AI is not placing the value on picks and players that most NHL teams would, based on following the (actual) draft for many years.

On the depth of the draft, I thought I found some good prospects in rounds 2 and 3. Round 4 seemed to be thin, but that's not so different from real life.

SirMichaelJordan · Post by **SirMichaelJordan** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:11 pm

Marmoset wrote:
SirMichaelJordan wrote:What were the team's needs though?

Its not unrealistic for a team to value a player that will give them depth now over some late round picks that won't be able to contribute for them (or if ever) for 3-4 years or so.

If this was a team looking for picks them I would say we have a problem. I rather the AI behave this way than to just being able to throw unneeded picks at them for a trade that the user wants.

I suggest there should be interest stars for draft picks.
As far as I can tell, team needs don't seem to matter. While not every team needs picks, in real life normally no team is going to refuse to even discuss an offer, unless it's a very high pick like McDavid. In the real NHL draft we regularly see a team move up something like 8 spots in the first round for their later 1st and a 2nd. If I'm offering twice as much and no team will even talk to me, it doesn't seem realistic.

And then there's the fact an average NHL forward seems to be worth more than a collection of first, second, and third round picks.

My issue is not that the AI wouldn't accept a trade I wanted to make, it's that unless I made offers that are totally unrealistic it wouldn't even talk to me. I feel like the AI is not placing the value on picks and players that most NHL teams would, based on following the (actual) draft for many years.

On the depth of the draft, I thought I found some good prospects in rounds 2 and 3. Round 4 seemed to be thin, but that's not so different from real life.

IDK, I've had good success with making trades with a team's need taking into consideration and the AI seem to based their trades on that rather than randomly making moves between each other. I was still able to steal a trade from the AI in one deal but that was because I offered them something they wanted and then took advantage of the AI and ironically It was me offering them a late pick for a very good player who they might wanted to dump salary as they seem to be in rebuild mode.

all and I'm saying is that I've notice that trade value are varying team by team this year.

Beggs74 · Post by **Beggs74** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:12 pm

Daelh wrote:Yes I agree with Satyr. Its not very realistic that you can find first liners in the seventh round EVERY draft like in 2007. Its more realistic that most of the players beyound the first round are long shots and will probably never make it with few exceptions. Ive found a couple of europeans in late rounds that looks like they can fit in my lineup down the road, but its not realistic to find a Crosby or Ovechkin in the seventh round.

Sixth rounder

Seventh rounder

Fourth rounder

Fifth rounder

These guys are by no means stars, but down the line with the right development can fit in the lineup in depths roles or maybe some top minutes, so there is some interesting players in the late rounds to. You just have to look for them.

I'm scouting the whole draft multiple times with a number of 20 20 scouts and not seeing anything decent outside the top 20, in fact beyond the first round most scouting reports say "limited potential". I think I'm up to the 2018 - 19 season.

Post by **batdad** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:55 pm

It is somewhat realistic to find later round studs at times. Not ALL the time, but occasionally.

It is also very good that you cannot move up in the draft willy nilly. Love that. It happens in the top round...what once every 2-3 years or so? And I believe the last time there was a big splurge for top 5 picks in moving up it was for the Sedin twins? Maybe something since then but not sure. Schneider-Horvat deal as well but that was #10.

It should be hard and realistic to move up in the draft. I am not sure even the deal you made with the player involved (who to my knowledge is not a great one, but maybe a third line guy) is not that real either. But I am very very hard on guys who trade around willy nilly and make superstar teams.

I like to play as close to real as possible, and every time I think about an UFA or a trade or draft move....I think would this really happen?

SirMichaelJordan · Post by **SirMichaelJordan** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:59 pm

batdad wrote:It is somewhat realistic to find later round studs at times. Not ALL the time, but occasionally.

It is also very good that you cannot move up in the draft willy nilly. Love that. It happens in the top round...what once every 2-3 years or so? And I believe the last time there was a big splurge for top 5 picks in moving up it was for the Sedin twins? Maybe something since then but not sure. Schneider-Horvat deal as well but that was #10.

It should be hard and realistic to move up in the draft. I am not sure even the deal you made with the player involved (who to my knowledge is not a great one, but maybe a third line guy) is not that real either. But I am very very hard on guys who trade around willy nilly and make superstar teams.

I like to play as close to real as possible, and every time I think about an UFA or a trade or draft move....I think would this really happen?

Yea I've seen a guy streaming move up in the draft to take McDavid so its not impossible to do he had to give up a lot (he already had 2 1st and I forgot what else he gave up but it was some players) but that is expected. But even then no way that trade should have been accepted by the AI unless Nylander was involved in it. He were the Leafs (seem to be the most popular team to use)

Post by **batdad** » Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:01 pm

Yeah trading up to get McDavid is unrealistic period.

gareth_14 · Post by **gareth_14** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:42 pm

SirMichaelJordan wrote:Yea I've seen a guy streaming move up in the draft to take McDavid so its not impossible to do he had to give up a lot (he already had 2 1st and I forgot what else he gave up but it was some players) but that is expected. But even then no way that trade should have been accepted by the AI unless Nylander was involved in it. He were the Leafs (seem to be the most popular team to use)

Playing as the Oilers, I was able to move up and get McDavid for two firsts (#12 & #30), a second (#55), and the rights to Roman Horak. So it is very doable. The most unrealistic part of the whole trade was that my board and fans were outraged.

Satyr · Post by **Satyr** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:53 pm

[quote="SirMichaelJordan"

Yea I've seen a guy streaming move up in the draft to take McDavid so its not impossible to do he had to give up a lot (he already had 2 1st and I forgot what else he gave up but it was some players) but that is expected. But even then no way that trade should have been accepted by the AI unless Nylander was involved in it. He were the Leafs (seem to be the most popular team to use)[/quote]

That was me, The 17th + 30th overall + top prospect Kapanen for the #1 pick. But that was the 15.0.0 version. And the board and fans were furious, haha.

SirMichaelJordan · Post by **SirMichaelJordan** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:01 pm

LMAO The board must not have known about McDavid

There should be some sort of draft pick value that changes based on the quality of the draft. I know FM has something along those lines for MLS draft picks.

madball1982 · Post by **madball1982** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:45 am

It's a good thing that it's harder to move up in the draft. But darn, there goes that "cheat"

madball1982 · Post by **madball1982** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:13 am

Well I thought I'd give it a go. Granted the draft list isn't out yet, but I traded with 30th BUF -
CGY: 2015 1st Rnd, 2017 4th Rnd, 2019 2nd Rnd + Ladislav Smid
for
BUF 2015 1st Rnd

PHX finished 29th, but they were asking the above plus Jonny Gaudreau. Nope.

EDIT: PHX won the lottery, I've got the 2nd pick.

golfgod04 · Post by **golfgod04** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:15 pm

I've had zero luck trading draft picks either. I even tried trading 2 3rd rounders for a 2nd to almost every team and got no takers. I do like that it is harder to trade up in the draft than in previous version but this is reallly hard. I've even tried a 1st and 2 2nds to move up from 14th to 12th in the draft and had no luck.

SirMichaelJordan · Post by **SirMichaelJordan** » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:36 pm

after watching this video I think it should be harder..

https://youtu.be/zD4ThJ6tiKI

Semjuel21 · Post by **Semjuel21** » Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:54 pm

I hope getting McDavid will be possible after todays patch

(bought the game later )

Post by **Peter_Doherty** » Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:09 pm

I hope not, because it should not be possible to get McDavid, there is no GM in the world that would take the risk of trading away McDavid...

golfgod04 · Post by **golfgod04** » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:00 pm

even with the update, I am having an impossible time trading for anyone really. I see what trades the computer is making, I make a better offer and I get rejected yet the computer deals still go through.

Post by **CeeBee** » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:36 pm

trading does seem flubarred. St.Louis put a half dozen guys on the block for financial reasons in the summer so I tried a few different trades to help out their salary problems. Their /gm loved the deals but the trades got turned down every time because they don't want to mess up team chemistry.... well, that makes sense. Putting guys on the block is good for team chemistry? but trading them then is not.

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