EHM:EA Attribute testing

[visualdarkness]

Looking at Test 1 in the year 2030 (16 years after start-up), and looking at the top 600 CA players in the NHL in 2030...

That looks pretty good actually. KHL should probably be better than SHL though but is weirdly crippled by the lowest rated guys. How come?

[deknegt]

KHL got more teams, and the lower tier guys are Russians. There are less great Russians than Swedes by percentage.

So because there are more teams, there are more lower tier guys filling lines, so the average lies lower than SHL.

[nino33]

I don't know...

Maybe if the NHL is considered the top League than other Leagues are based on that.....while Russia may produce more superstars (which the data shows! I thought that was cool) but Sweden produces way more NHL players IRL...

2014-15 NHL - 77 from Sweden, 39 from the Czech Republic, 35 from Finland and Russia
2013-14 NHL - 78 from Sweden, 37 from the Czech Republic, 34 from Russia and 32 from Finland
2012-13 NHL - 63 from Sweden, 44 from the Czech Republic, 30 from Finland and 29 from Russia
2011-12 NHL - 68 from Sweden, 43 from the Czech Republic, 31 from Russia and 29 from Finland
2010-11 NHL - 63 from Sweden, 42 from the Czech Republic, 33 from Russia and 30 from Finland

Also, while IRL the KHL may be undisputed as "the best League in Europe" there is dispute if it's necessarily better than other European Leagues at producing NHL players (because the style of play/speed of play in the KHL is so different than the NHL).....I hope that someday the game will better represent/simulate the different syles of hockey/different ice surface size but I don't think it does much at this point

[nino33]

KHL got more teams.....So because there are more teams, there are more lower tier guys filling lines, so the average lies lower than SHL.

Makes total sense!

[Manimal]

Also, while IRL the KHL may be undisputed as "the best League in Europe" there is dispute if it's necessarily better than other European Leagues at producing NHL players (because the style of play/speed of play in the KHL is so different than the NHL).....I hope that someday the game will better represent/simulate the different syles of hockey/different ice surface size but I don't think it does much at this point

Well, you have to consider the fact that the KHL is good enough so many players stay at home, rather than go play a lesser role in the NHL.
You can't just look at the amount of players in the NHL

[visualdarkness]

Dont underestimate the way overblown fear of the "Russian factor" when it comes to drafting lower ranked russian players IRL. Most NHL teams rather draft guys they are pretty sure would come over if they asked them to. It is not only skill that leads to teams drafting Swedish second division players before lower ranked russians.

The problem is how to simulate this in the game. One way would be to give Russians a low adaptation rate and boost the general skill level, but that would lead to other consequenses and would only punish the AI that will draft them anyway. Another way would be to make KHL more attractive, but that still wont affect the drafting, just the signing.

[nino33]

Well, you have to consider the fact that the KHL is good enough so many players stay at home, rather than go play a lesser role in the NHL.
You can't just look at the amount of players in the NHL

I'm not really sure what you're saying...

When I look at the data it tells me if as many Swedes stayed home as Russians stayed home the "top talent" would be very close between the SHL and KHL
And if the SHL expanded significantly it would very quickly have an average that's lower than the KHL.

In terms of "top players" I don't see Russia as producing way more than the other top hockey nations (maybe not even "more" except for elite/generational snipers)

Dont underestimate the way overblown fear of the "Russian factor" when it comes to drafting lower ranked russian players IRL. Most NHL teams rather draft guys they are pretty sure would come over if they asked them to.

I think this is a European/Russian view fostered upon NA
The reality is the Leagues outside of NA get essentially no coverage...they're all the same (there's no "Russian factor" - IMO no one really cares and hasn't for a long time)


And perhaps the "Russian factor" (if there still is one) is based on performance?
Since 1991 Russian haven't been any better than the other hockey nations.....and while Russia may produce the elite/superstar more often (I kinda think they do) they don't produce 3rd and 4th line NHLers (players with some skill who are also disciplined, defensive, reliable); an awful lot of 2nd/3rd/4th liners that look skilled in the KHL would look far less skilled without the bigger ice, less checking/defensive play and slower pace (without the time to make decisions some skilled players simply become defensive liabilities in the NHL, and they don't bring there offensive game because they can't unless they get more room, more time and less checking)

I do admit I have seen when hockey people in NA say such things, some get upset/bothered because in their view the KHL is the 2nd best League in the world.....I think North Americans think of the NHL and the development road to the NHL, and the AHL and Major Junior are considered better routes than the KHL (frequently mentioned is the better coaching and NA style of play)

And I don't think the money issue is very relevant anymore (players being paid in rubles makes the KHL less popular now doesn't it?)
And seeing non-top players at the top of KHL scoring doesn't do anything to impress those that don't think of the KHL as the 2nd best League (Steve Moses is the KHL record holder for most goals in a season, maybe he'll help but if he's nothing special in NA that won't help the KHL's image in NA either)


P.S. Just to be clear, I've long been an advocate of a 110-140 range for Elite European/Russian Leagues (which clearly Riz/SI are not HaHa) so based on that I actually think the KHL/SHL are better than EHM:EA does

[Alessandro]

The average CA for the KHL is too low. I think that maybe I have been a little bit conservative with the research, and the newgens are getting influenced by this. I am not going to increase KHL players as I think they are high enough, but I think that many players (not the top ones) may deserve a 5-10 points boost.

Nino, who are the ones playing in the KHL with 180-89 CA? If they are newgens, can you post a screenshot of their histories?
Thank you.

[visualdarkness]

I agree with the KHL and player roles. Still that doesnt translate in a lack of "talent" but rather a culture clash sports-wise, though there are very limited other ways to implement it in the game.

[nino33]

Nino, who are the ones playing in the KHL with 180-89 CA? If they are newgens, can you post a screenshot of their histories?
Thank you.

Both newgens - but they're not Russian
One's a Swedish goalie (Leon Sandström, age 33, 189 CA) the other a Finnish goalie (Mkiko Vaakanainen, age 20, 186 CA)...let me know if you want their histories

By CA number three in the KHL in 2030 was Andrei Vasilevsky (age 35, CA 171)
Then Igor Shestyorkin (age 34, 161 CA)
Then Jérémy Lauzon (age 33, CA 160)
And then a Russian newgen, 19 year old Raimil Barulin (158 CA 168 PA) - Attributes/History screenshots below
Number seven and eight by was Tomás Hertl (age 36, 156 CA) and Vladimir Tarasenko (age 38, 155 CA)
And then a Russian newgen, 24 year old Semen Busygin (154 CA 158 PA) - Attributes/History screenshots below
Number 10 by was Alikhan Asetov (153 CA 159 PA)

[nino33]

I agree with the KHL and player roles. Still that doesnt translate in a lack of "talent" but rather a culture clash sports-wise, though there are very limited other ways to implement it in the game.

I think it's possible to implement ingame myself...having a wider rink would certainly make defenseman's skating Attributes slightly more significant, on average a speedy/agile player is that small percentage more likely to get past the defenseman

Another way would be to add an Attribute/or use the Decisions Attribute to represent the ability to use offensive skills quickly (a higher value would be needed to use offensive skills depending on the intensity/skill of the defensive pressure received, i.e. a higher value would be required for the faster paced game of the NHL)

Perhaps Flair and Creativity/Vision could have a slight increase in relevance when playing on bigger ice (and the "cutoff" for relevance would be lower, as with bigger ice there's a bit more time to be more creative/show more flair.....the value required to make such plays would be slightly lower for bigger ice, because there'd be additional time to make them)

If a new Attribute was created for One Timers (good idea IIRC Alesssandro suggested ages ago, I'm sure others have too).....if this was ingame it could be made more relevant given the bigger ice/more opportunity to set up (more likely to be successful on the big ice)

Adjusting percentages on things like pucks going around the boards and whether the offensive team can "keep the puck inside the blueline or not" would be affected by the ice width

If with a bigger ice surface the game is different at the elite level, and being out of position leaves a player more vulnerable (whether because they tried to make a hit/big hit, skated to slowly, or another reason), then a difference in speed/agility can be programmed to make more of a difference

Goaltenders playing deeper in the net because of less shots from far out/more cross ice play; less likely to play the puck behind the net (extra room) but more likely to play the puck in the corners (no trapezoid)

And of course Adaptability would affect all of these and more when a player played overseas in a new hockey environment (maybe a player might regress in some skills a bit initially before "reacquiring/improving" the ability)

There could be a lowering of the ability of defenseman with poorer skating skills (especially Balance/Agility) to play well on the bigger ice when there is sustained offensive pressure (such D would be less capable of being in position/making the play under sustained pressure, as better than they have mobility is required on the bigger ice)

And there's more ideas I'm sure, but there's a few...

[nino33]

And then a Russian newgen, 19 year old Raimil Barulin (158 CA 168 PA) - Attributes/History screenshots below

Just so no one thinks I don't see/understand the "low Attributes" issue.....the Attribute distribution (lows/highs) shown above is not good at all IMO!

I don't think such a player (with 158 CA who should have Attributes "around 13") should have skating Atts of 6-7-8 (he shouldn't have had such low Attributes as a teenager IMO).....and I don't think he should have a 20 in Deking/Faceoff and a 19 in Wristshot (if he should average "around 13" then the range should be 10-16, and 17 as a maximum at such an age in almost all cases.....18s and in particular 19s and 20s IMO need to be much, much more rare!)

I have had these views for years [the idea that there should be League Attribute minimums, European/Russian Elite Leagues should mostly be in the 110-140 CA range (thus averaging around 120 or more), Staff should have similar CA to players, Attributes shouldn't vary so widely from the desired average, and 19/20 should be very, very rare]

I think skating Attributes should vary less from the desired average (based on CA) than other skills.
I also think there should be a maximum development/a cut-off for many/most Attributes (especially the "hockey skills"), based on CA and on Player Role

[visualdarkness]

And then a Russian newgen, 19 year old Raimil Barulin (158 CA 168 PA) - Attributes/History screenshots below

Just so no one thinks I don't see/understand the "low Attributes" issue.....the Attribute distribution (lows/highs) shown above is not good at all IMO!

That is a prime example of the no flair and no agility all-offence player the game loves to generate.

[Alessandro]

Just so no one thinks I don't see/understand the "low Attributes" issue.....the Attribute distribution (lows/highs) shown above is not good at all IMO!

And we were lucky with this one, I see many Russian forwards with stickhandling 4! This is an aberration
Jokes a part, I also see that there are some huge problems with career paths, at least in Europe. That guy Busygin, playing four years in Rostov. LOL. This kind of players should move to big clubs or in Moscow teams by the time they are 12. Considering that he hails from Tula he should be playing for Dynamo or CSKA Moscow as 12-13 years older.
After 4 years in Rostov, he plays directly in the KHL. And again LOL. It would be like an NHL teams signs a teenager from the LNAH (if teenagers play there) and puts him in the opening night roster.
Still a leftover from 07, where I drafted a Swedish player in the first round, he was playing Swe-4.

[Alessandro]

I agree with the KHL and player roles. Still that doesnt translate in a lack of "talent" but rather a culture clash sports-wise, though there are very limited other ways to implement it in the game.

I think it's possible to implement ingame myself...having a wider rink would certainly make defenseman's skating Attributes slightly more significant, on average a speedy/agile player is that small percentage more likely to get past the defenseman

Another way would be to add an Attribute/or use the Decisions Attribute to represent the ability to use offensive skills quickly (a higher value would be needed to use offensive skills depending on the intensity/skill of the defensive pressure received, i.e. a higher value would be required for the faster paced game of the NHL)

Perhaps Flair and Creativity/Vision could have a slight increase in relevance when playing on bigger ice (and the "cutoff" for relevance would be lower, as with bigger ice there's a bit more time to be more creative/show more flair.....the value required to make such plays would be slightly lower for bigger ice, because there'd be additional time to make them)

If a new Attribute was created for One Timers (good idea IIRC Alesssandro suggested ages ago, I'm sure others have too).....if this was ingame it could be made more relevant given the bigger ice/more opportunity to set up (more likely to be successful on the big ice)

Adjusting percentages on things like pucks going around the boards and whether the offensive team can "keep the puck inside the blueline or not" would be affected by the ice width

If with a bigger ice surface the game is different at the elite level, and being out of position leaves a player more vulnerable (whether because they tried to make a hit/big hit, skated to slowly, or another reason), then a difference in speed/agility can be programmed to make more of a difference

Goaltenders playing deeper in the net because of less shots from far out/more cross ice play; less likely to play the puck behind the net (extra room) but more likely to play the puck in the corners (no trapezoid)

And of course Adaptability would affect all of these and more when a player played overseas in a new hockey environment (maybe a player might regress in some skills a bit initially before "reacquiring/improving" the ability)

There could be a lowering of the ability of defenseman with poorer skating skills (especially Balance/Agility) to play well on the bigger ice when there is sustained offensive pressure (such D would be less capable of being in position/making the play under sustained pressure, as better than they have mobility is required on the bigger ice)

And there's more ideas I'm sure, but there's a few...

You're preaching to the choir
I'm sure Riz has something in mind though.
Goalies in Europe very rarely play the puck in the corners anyway, no matter the trapezoid.

[nino33]

Goalies in Europe very rarely play the puck in the corners anyway, no matter the trapezoid.

Back at the boards the trapezoid is 11 feet outside of the post, so with a 100 foot wide arena "the corner" is the remaining 36 feet! And that's at the back of the net by the boards, at the goaline the trapezoid only extends out 6 feet (the remaining 41 feet to the boards would be "in the corner"); in the NHL 6 feet outside either post the goalie can't play the puck behind the goaline (they're "in the corner")

So while they may not be actually in the corner, they're often outside of the trapezoid HaHa

[Alessandro]

Well, usually goalies get out of the crease much less in Europe, mostly in front of the goal line, not so much behind it, that's what I meant.

[nino33]

Greetings!

A year ago I did some significant Attribute development testing...I used the TBL Rosters and looked at 16 goalies & 112 skaters (age 13-23 at start-up) & I looked at every Attribute and it's development on a year by year basis for all 128 players. I used the EHM:EA Assistant to export the saved game data, and to compile/display the data I used slightly modified versions of the Attribute Progression Tracker spreadsheet (the Attribute Tracker Spreadsheets have a "comparison" tab for both skaters and goalies were you can see the growth/regression)

I have updated the links in the first post, so anyone wanting to can download the results


ALSO...I am just starting now to again do this type of review!

As before, Essentially I want to know
- what Attributes never change
- what Attributes rarely change/only change a little bit when they do change
- what Attributes change "normally"

I'm likely only going to compile/post the data from one test as I have many other things I'd like to do (I'd really like to get to some actual database editing!), but with the test sims available to me due to the Regen Testing I've been doing http://www.ehmtheblueline.com/forums/vi ... 24#p214824 I have the data already available & I've already got the spreadsheets "set up" from last year's efforts.....so I'm just now starting to compile the data, and ASAP I'll post it for anyone that's interested!




As mentioned, I'm particularly interested in is are the "permanent" Attributes still permanent? And are the "barely changing" Attributes still barely changing? Given the last testing was done in the middle of "early access" + Riz continues to tweak things/updates continue to happen I think this is critical information for those of us that edit (and I'm sure interesting to at least some others! HaHa)

Regarding permanent/barely changing Attributes, here's what was learned last year...

SKATERS
For skaters the following Attributes are always rated as “1” and never change/grow – One On Ones, Blocker, Glove, Rebound, Recovery and Reflexes.

For skaters, the following Attributes never change, they always maintain the same value – Aggression, Flair, Consistency, Dirtiness, Pass Tendency, Injury Proneness, Agitation and Adaptability.

Ambition, Loyalty, Pressure, Professionalism, Sportsmanship and Temperament are somewhat more likely to change (but still don’t change much).


GOALIES
For goalies the following Attributes are always rated as “1” and never change/grow – Hitting, Checking, Creativity, Deflections, Deking, Faceoffs, Getting Open, Slapshot and Wristshot.

For goalies, the following Attributes never change, they always maintain the same value – Aggression, Flair, Consistency, Dirtiness, Pass Tendency, Injury Proneness, Agitation and Adaptability.

For goalies Ambition, Loyalty, Pressure, Professionalism, Sportsmanship and Temperament are somewhat more likely to change (but still don’t change much). Fighting is usually a low rating and unlikely to change/doesn’t change much.


For both skaters & goalies Determination rarely change/changes very little.

[nino33]

Greetings!

A year ago I did some significant Attribute development testing...I used the TBL Rosters and looked at 16 goalies & 112 skaters (age 13-23 at start-up) & I looked at every Attribute and it's development on a year by year basis for all 128 players. I used the EHM:EA Assistant to export the saved game data, and to compile/display the data I used slightly modified versions of the Attribute Progression Tracker spreadsheet (the Attribute Tracker Spreadsheets have a "comparison" tab for both skaters and goalies were you can see the growth/regression)

I have updated the links in the first post, so anyone wanting to can download the results


ALSO...I am just starting now to again do this type of review!

Done! Finally! HaHa

Here is the link to the Attribute Progression Tracker spreadsheets for anyone that's interested https://1drv.ms/u/s!AvTHo4MBaphkcp5UYVXWcvLScSo

This time I did a lot more than 128 players!
There are two groups, Vets (102 skaters/15 goalies) and Youth (202 skaters/19 goalies). Because the spreadsheets can't handled much more than 100 skaters, the Youth are separated into two groups, those age 13-19 at startup and those age 20-26 at startup. The Vets are all age 23-28 at startup.

I used the TBL 8.2 database; the players are either those with a PA of 150+ or a PA of -8, -9 or -10.


For each group there are 8 spreadsheets (covering all the Attributes a skater/goalie has).
Each of the first three covers a 4 year period of development, and the final one compares just 2015 to 2027

• 2015-2019 - ingame Atts & "hidden" Atts
• 2019-2023 - ingame Atts & "hidden" Atts
• 2023-2027 - ingame Atts & "hidden" Atts
• 2015 and 2027 - ingame Atts & "hidden" Atts

I haven't had a chance to actually review the data yet...




EDIT – I forgot to mention, the saves looked at were not on the exact same date every year (because of human error + the “every 3 months” automatic save and 365 day year doesn’t result in exactly the same dates being saved); here are the save dates…

2015 December 5th
2016 November 29th
2017 November 24th
2018 May 23rd
2019 September 30th
2020 September 24th
2021 September 19th
2022 September 14th
2023 September 9th
2024 September 3rd
2025 September 7th
2026 September 4th
2027 December 28th




EDIT - There's an error in the data for Vet player Evgeny Dadonov; looking at the 12 year comparison clearly shows I'm comparing two different players with the same name

[nino33]

In terms of what does not ever change or develop, things are still the same (as noted below).
Also, PA and Offensive/Defensive Role do not change either.



SKATERS
For skaters the following Attributes are always rated as “1” and never change/grow – One On Ones, Blocker, Glove, Rebound, Recovery and Reflexes.

For skaters, the following Attributes never change, they always maintain the same value – Aggression, Flair, Consistency, Dirtiness, Pass Tendency, Injury Proneness, Agitation and Adaptability.


GOALIES
For goalies the following Attributes are always rated as “1” and never change/grow – Hitting, Checking, Creativity, Deflections, Deking, Faceoffs, Getting Open, Slapshot and Wristshot.

For goalies, the following Attributes never change, they always maintain the same value – Aggression, Flair, Consistency, Dirtiness, Pass Tendency, Injury Proneness, Agitation and Adaptability.

[nino33]

Riz was recently asked on Twitter about Consistency https://twitter.com/rizrem/status/1252550845905993730 and he replied

• Consistency is a hidden mental tendency that can grow as the player ages
• It would only start growing at a later age (27+) and changes can be small so might be hard to notice yes