Player attributes and development

[Peter_Doherty]

Correct me if i'm wrong but don't scouts mostly go on CA/PA? Maybe that goalies CA/PA is that of a backup goalie, but his attributes are clearly elite. Everything is not set in stone in this game, just because your amazing scout says that a guy is this or that doesn't mean the player plays like that If he plays like a starter (which it looks like he does) then he is a starter

[Mauso]

Probably becuase it looks as though he cannot even stand up on his skates. LOL

However, what draft did you get this guy? EHM 2007 was notorious in having some missed regens in the first two drafts regens appear in. Also....sometimes, just like in real life the people in charge of looking for good players miss them.

SCouts are not always right my friend. We do not want them to be either. Takes some of the fun out of it. Guess it was a good thing you did not listen to him.

Ah true that! Guess I missed that because I am used to ignore those skills for GK from football manager ))

He was drafted in 2020 and I understand the concept of what you are saying and I like it, really Even Demitra himself was a pick from the last rounds. Just it seems to me that there are too many good picks in the late rounds (truth is though, that I dont know any statistics so ratio may be as in real life )

[starshock101]

I have a question about player projections,

is it just me or do they change? I've had multiple times where a prospect has had his projection change, best example is jesper lindgren for me. he was projected as a 3-4 defender then suddenly was a 1-2 for a couple seasons. Recently he changed back to a 3-4 projection. Also had Tretyak change from 3rd string potential to a start/backup (scouts had different opinions), some other goalie went from 3rd string to backup for me too. So it looks to me like potential can change. If that's the case anyone know what causes it to?

[Aladyyn]

Just like in real life, the perception of a player can change over time, especially during their young years, where a lot of players are hard to project. Maybe they start developing better than anyone expected, maybe they struggle and hit a plateau early, anything can happen.

[caymanmew]

I have a question about player projections,

is it just me or do they change? I've had multiple times where a prospect has had his projection change, best example is jesper lindgren for me. he was projected as a 3-4 defender then suddenly was a 1-2 for a couple seasons. Recently he changed back to a 3-4 projection. Also had Tretyak change from 3rd string potential to a start/backup (scouts had different opinions), some other goalie went from 3rd string to backup for me too. So it looks to me like potential can change. If that's the case anyone know what causes it to?

PA cant change. you scouts can change their opinion though. end of the day if you don't look at there pa you wont know their true potential. scouts are not very accurate either.

[Mauso]

The inaccuracy of scouts can be a big deal, though I really dont know how scouting works for the AI. But I see a lot of teams that had top picks last seasons couldnt really develop those players (either they dont have good PA, or they are simply not developing for them). This bad thing. I know some years in draft in real life are bad, but this isnt about whole draft class being bad. What I can see is that top ranked players are mostly not that good. Are generated players worse in general? Can anybody who got further in game confirm this? Im only in season 23/24 so I cant really say now.

EDIT
One more thing. Ive spotted that most of GK regens have really bad skating attributes. Anybody else spotted this in his game?

[batdad]

Not sure at this point re new gens being better or worse. Supposed to work out so that league averages stay the same for the future. In 07 Regens were often super good or super bad.
Remember we have not set player role nor changed the database for EA so it is working off our knowledge of EHM07. WE may have to make some adjustments to players for EA, and we know we will...but we have to wait until we know for sure how EA development and how the new "player role" System works before we can be sure we have the db in proper form to start with.

As time goes in if we learn that the attributes on players go down, we just have to realize that they are down for everyone, and the game should still play the same with the best players in the top leagues. Just have to adjust our thinking on what makes a good player.

The scouts--meh, they are okay. Not perfect but they do a good enough job.

[sten88]

I'm in the 26/27 season and in my experience, the new gens are just awful in comparison. 18 out of the 30 NHL teams are below the salary floor because there just aren't enough top end players demanding high salaries. The other giveaway is that the top 10 players by position at the start of every season have been almost identical year after year. I think all 10 goalies were current NHLers; Price, Rask, Bishop, Quick, Varlamov, Bernier, Bobrovsky, Mrazek, Gibson, Holtby - most of these are now 38+. No awards (other than obviously the Calder trophy) have ever been won by new gens...That's the equivalent to nobody who was drafted since 2005 winning an award by now in real life. I'm intrigued to see how things are in 5-10 years when all the original players have retired.

Slightly off topic but kind of related - my scouts NEVER find any 4 star prospects. There are about 5-10 5-star prospects every year, then the next highest is 3-star of which there are usually hundreds. I wonder if this is why the new gens don't match up because if those few 5-stars don't reach their potential then there's a huge gap down to next next best prospects. I'm using the default database btw, not TBL rosters.

[CeeBee]

I'm in the 26/27 season and in my experience, the new gens are just awful in comparison. 18 out of the 30 NHL teams are below the salary floor because there just aren't enough top end players demanding high salaries. The other giveaway is that the top 10 players by position at the start of every season have been almost identical year after year. I think all 10 goalies were current NHLers; Price, Rask, Bishop, Quick, Varlamov, Bernier, Bobrovsky, Mrazek, Gibson, Holtby - most of these are now 38+. No awards (other than obviously the Calder trophy) have ever been won by new gens...That's the equivalent to nobody who was drafted since 2005 winning an award by now in real life. I'm intrigued to see how things are in 5-10 years when all the original players have retired.

Slightly off topic but kind of related - my scouts NEVER find any 4 star prospects. There are about 5-10 5-star prospects every year, then the next highest is 3-star of which there are usually hundreds. I wonder if this is why the new gens don't match up because if those few 5-stars don't reach their potential then there's a huge gap down to next next best prospects. I'm using the default database btw, not TBL rosters.

Same thing is happening to me in both my saves. I'm using TBL 7.3 rosters. A handful or less of 5 star prospects, no 4's and a ton of 3's, most of who grade out by my scouts as 3rd liners at best but mostly limited or no chance. Unless I trade up for a top pick most of my draft picks should not even be playing junior it seems.

[sten88]

Well, the 2027 (yes 2027, not 2017) All Star teams are in:

Team Tavares: John Gibson 33, Ben Bishop 40, Carey Price 39, Victor Hedman 36, Derrick Pouliot 32, Ryan Ellis 35, Alex Pietrangelo 36, Erik Karlsson 36, John Carlson 36, Lawson Crouse 29, Cody Pearson 28 (2016 draft so don't think it's a new gen), Filip Forsberg 32, John Tavares 36, Jack Eichel 30, Ryan Hugent-Hopkins 33, Nathan MacKinnon 31, Iippo Peltomaa 28 (2016 draft), Vladimir Tarasenko 35, Elias Lindholm 32, Ryan O'Reilly 35.

Team Subban: Tuukka Rask 39, Dan Vladar 29 (2015 draft), Petr Mrazek 34, Cam Fowler 35, Gunnar Jean 27 (2017 draft), Justin Faulk 34, Ryan Murphy 33, Drew Doughty 37, PK Subban 37, Taylor Hall 35, Tomas Hertl 33, Sean Monahan 32, Steven Stamkos 36, Connor McDavid 30, Jonathan Toews 38, Sam Bennett 30, Ryan Johansen 34, Alex Barkov 31, Patrick Kane 38, David Pastrnak 30, Josh Ho-Sang 30.

So there you go, 1 player from the 2017 draft (which probably isn't even a new gen) and NONE from later than that - who ever said hockey was a young man's game! So yeah, the new gens all suck.

[Asher413]

Two things I wonder:

1. Is the problem that EHM thinks there's too much talent in the TBL Database, so it doesn't think it needs to generate star players?

2. After all of the guys in the original DB retire, then what does it generate?

And on the salary cap thing- I think salaries are way too tied to rep. I started a game with my WIP 1972 database, I set everyone as FA's (for a personal game to play), where I have a bunch of 0's for reputation, and big time talents were signing for 570k. (24 years old, 19+ in speed, accel, deflections, anticipation, creativity, teawork, passing, off the puck, slapshot and wristshot, no lower than 14 except in agression, faceoffs, flair and strength). Guys that I legitimately would see as 1st liners in most DB's signing for just above minimum, while guys with mostly yellows signing for 2 million. (See the discussion about resigning being too easy on the SI boards). In no way saying the talent isn't there, but I think salaries aren't really right in the game yet.

[sten88]

Two things I wonder:

1. Is the problem that EHM thinks there's too much talent in the TBL Database, so it doesn't think it needs to generate star players?

2. After all of the guys in the original DB retire, then what does it generate?

And on the salary cap thing- I think salaries are way too tied to rep. I started a game with my WIP 1972 database, I set everyone as FA's (for a personal game to play), where I have a bunch of 0's for reputation, and big time talents were signing for 570k. (24 years old, 19+ in speed, accel, deflections, anticipation, creativity, teawork, passing, off the puck, slapshot and wristshot, no lower than 14 except in agression, faceoffs, flair and strength). Guys that I legitimately would see as 1st liners in most DB's signing for just above minimum, while guys with mostly yellows signing for 2 million. (See the discussion about resigning being too easy on the SI boards). In no way saying the talent isn't there, but I think salaries aren't really right in the game yet.

1. I'm using default rosters so if there is a problem with TBL rosters, there's a problem with their own as well.

2. I'm curious to find out, has anyone simmed ahead to say 2040? I imagine they have the same problems because I think part of the problem is around the player roles. As someone alluded to earlier, goalies can't skate but also; defenseman usually have 5s or lower for about half the technical attributes and forwards cannot defend (5s or lower for checking, hitting, pokecheck and positioning) and these extremely low attributes never improve.

Maybe rep is part of the problem on salary issues in that guys that could get 3-5 mil are only asking 1-2.

[Asher413]

1. I'm using default rosters so if there is a problem with TBL rosters, there's a problem with their own as well.

2. I'm curious to find out, has anyone simmed ahead to say 2040? I imagine they have the same problems because I think part of the problem is around the player roles. As someone alluded to earlier, goalies can't skate but also; defenseman usually have 5s or lower for about half the technical attributes and forwards cannot defend (5s or lower for checking, hitting, pokecheck and positioning) and these extremely low attributes never improve.

Maybe rep is part of the problem on salary issues in that guys that could get 3-5 mil are only asking 1-2.

1. I was under the impression that the default rosters were just renamed players and birthdates from the TBL rosters. (Or is it the converted default rosters from EHM 2007

2. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there is an attribute problem, I just want to make sure we're testing it far enough (like as you said, 2040) to make sure we've eliminated the database as the source. If I get time, I'll try to leave my computer on vacation one of these days when I go to work and see if I can get a far enough in the future database we can all look at.

[CeeBee]

First time I've ever seen this. 2018, playing NHL Canucks and scouting the OHL. top 12 players with 3 stars, next 2 have 2 stars and then 23 players with 1 star. Thats some pathetic talent in the pipeline. If things don't improve I might go back to EHM 07.... The draft sucks so bad that 3rd and 4th round picks are thrown around by the AI for 4th line or worse. Starting not to be so much fun trying to build a good team with drafting young players.

[Asher413]

Short Update:

The file is in 2034 (hopefully after today at work it will be in the 2040's). The leading scorers are some new-gens, a couple of holdovers from the 2016 class. The Selke has been MacDavid for about 7 times of the last 8, and the Vezina just finally passed onto a new-gen (was Demko, Erikkson Ek and Price most before that).

Hopefully we can see if the game is aiming for an average talent once the last of the initial players retire, or if all of the new-gen stars consistently have a handful of red attributes.

[Asher413]

Here we are, 2042. I'll let those who have better skills decide what this file means, but for the record: (I also don't care if someone uploads or links this for their own purposes)

Veleno is the only player drafted in the 2010's still non-retired, so it's safe to say that at least one full generation of players has been done by the game.

The highest reputation defenseman is V. Good.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4EvRl ... sp=sharing

[deknegt]

Here we are, 2042. I'll let those who have better skills decide what this file means, but for the record: (I also don't care if someone uploads or links this for their own purposes)

Veleno is the only player drafted in the 2010's still non-retired, so it's safe to say that at least one full generation of players has been done by the game.

The highest reputation defenseman is V. Good.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4EvRl ... sp=sharing

Awesome file, I'm going to rummage through it

- Best player is a 29 year old Canadian center. Has 1 aggression, 5 checking/hitting, and 11 pokecheck, 9 Positioning... Only on a 5M contract! Rest of his skills green...
- Second best player is a Swiss goalie, who plays in the KHL!
- Third and fourth best are defenders. One has 20's across the board for the defensive skills (and passing/stickhandling), yet 3 determination, and all yellow's for offensive skills.
The other defender on the other hand is hockey-jesus with offensive AND defensive skills a-plenty, yet for some ungodly reason he has 2 aggression...
- Canada rules, even more so than usual it seems. The top 10 of players have 7 Canadians, a swede, a fin, and a Swiss. The best American is 15th down the list. The best offensive American is 32nd on the list!

Did a crude calculation of physical abilities using the CSV function of EHM Assistant. The best 175 players (non-goalie) players in the game.


Median = The middle number of them all
Mode = Most common number in the string.

really interesting to see that there is nobody in the upper percentage with 17 agility, and that ''average'' is truly average in the true-est sense. High Stamina on the other other hand seems to be extremely common... The thing that I found the weirdest is that the most common attribute for Stamina/Strength was a full 20!

Also, seemingly in the top 175 there are players with 2's and 1's in physical attributes 0_0

[Edgars]

How many of those 175 top players were 35+ and/or 40+ years old?

[deknegt]

How many of those 175 top players were 35+ and/or 40+ years old?

17 over 35, 2 over 40... There's also a few teen's in there that skew the figures.

Like I said, a crude calculation.

[Alessandro]

What about the best Russian?

[deknegt]

What about the best Russian?

[Asher413]

After the latest patch went after it again (Until the RFA issues I'm having in 2006 DB's are fixed, I'm taking a break), up to 2038. At a first glance, it seems to be better. From my seat, it seems like they found a halfway point between the TBL database level of talent and the previous patch. Hopefully tomorrow after work it'll be cycled through all of the TBL players (10 or so left).

Other random note: Some guys have odd staff jobs after retiring: I think Stamkos preferred to be a physio... with a 10 in physio.

[Alessandro]

What about the best Russian?

malkin regen? Even born in Magnitogorsk
Can you show me his career?

[Asher413]

Some teasers as I'll post the file after the offspring goes to bed: (It's Dec 20th, 2045)

Only two players didn't retire from the 2025 draft- #1 overall and #110 overall (who managed over 1000 points).

I only have the NHL and AHL on, but the draft is WAY too N. American heavy (As in one Russian and the rest N. American in the top 21 picks year after year.)

Only two players have reputations of "Star"

Some awards seem off. 3 time Selke winner only had 14 takeaways/year and 70 shots blocked, 50-60 PIMs, just not someone attributes or stats wise that wow's me.

3 guys have passed Howe on the games played list, and pretty much the top 10 are all 'modern guys'. Same with wins, 2 guys passed Roy, and the rest of the list is 'modern guys'

[Asher413]

Here's the file (from 15.13.0b)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4EvRl ... sp=sharing