Declining Attributes

[The Senator]

I have noticed in the SI forum that the biggest complaint is that over time attributes decline.Will the next patch address this problem?

[Shadd666]

Here is the list of what is already DONE for the next patch. Other stuff are in progress, but there are no more precisions...
http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums ... 2992034952

[The Senator]

Thank You for the info Shadd666,but there is no mention of declininng attributes on the list.Thanks for your tip on my problem of saving games also.

[B. Stinson]

This has been a well know problem for a while, so even if it's not on the list, I guarantee they have it done or are working on fixing it.

[Shadd666]

Thank You for the info Shadd666,but there is no mention of declininng attributes on the list.Thanks for your tip on my problem of saving games also.

It's always a pleasure to help

This has been a well know problem for a while, so even if it's not on the list, I guarantee they have it done or are working on fixing it.

I've heard about this problem, but didn't experienced it by myself yet... But i hadn't played a lot actually. Is the problem remains the same with a really intensive training (3 intensive and 3 normal)? If so, no doubt there's a problem. And if it has been mentionned so much on SI boards, we can be sure that they'll do their best to solve this as soon as possible, certainly for the main patch.

[B. Stinson]

Thank You for the info Shadd666,but there is no mention of declininng attributes on the list.Thanks for your tip on my problem of saving games also.

It's always a pleasure to help

This has been a well know problem for a while, so even if it's not on the list, I guarantee they have it done or are working on fixing it.

I've heard about this problem, but didn't experienced it by myself yet... But i hadn't played a lot actually. Is the problem remains the same with a really intensive training (3 intensive and 3 normal)? If so, no doubt there's a problem. And if it has been mentionned so much on SI boards, we can be sure that they'll do their best to solve this as soon as possible, certainly for the main patch.

Well, actually I'm with you on this one - I've never seen it either. I've yet to play EHM07 beyond the mid-way point of year one, because my first game was ruined by the "standard detail lock" bug, and I had to delete it(out of lack of functionality within my own league). Then the game I have now is a temporary game, but I got bored with it knowing I won't continue it when the patch is out... so I didn't get far with that game either.

And to answer your question - more intensive training might fix it, but beware of injured players. Plus, if it does have any effect, it would be to your team only, and the rest of the league would still degrade... since I hear it's a game-wide thing(which is exactly why I guarantee it'll be fixed for this coming patch)

[Shadd666]

And to answer your question - more intensive training might fix it, but beware of injured players. Plus, if it does have any effect, it would be to your team only, and the rest of the league would still degrade... since I hear it's a game-wide thing(which is exactly why I guarantee it'll be fixed for this coming patch)

Training with 3 intensive and 3 normal settings was, in EHM05, the best compromise between fast and high progress and few injuries. As the practice section in EHM07 looks the same than in 05, i guess it would be the same way.

But for sure, if the problem concerns all the league, it's a problem, no doubt. And an important one, so it will be fixed soon.

[Thundercleese]

Apparently, according to the SI boards, player decline has been adjusted with this patch. It didn't say anything specific on the changes so we'll have to wait and see I guess. The problem, for those who haven't experienced it yet, is that once a player hits 35 or 36 he quickly becomes as useful as a bag of pucks. I played all the way to the 11-12 season before the patch and saw plenty of this, and I do set my practices to three intensive, three medium. I even tried to keep the guy practicing over the offseason, resting him only when he was 'tired' and it didn't help.

Hopefully the change is in this patch and not something to be addressed still later. I think the exact question was basically "has this problem been addressed" and the answer was just "yes" so it doesn't necessarily mean that it's been dealt with for THIS patch, just that the problem has been examined and will be fixed soon-ish.

[Minstrel]

This was specifically addressed by people runing long-term "soak" tests both at SI and by testers and they were tweaked on "both ends" of development, both players developing and old players declining naturally as well

[Kris]

I don't know if this is fixed in the patch but for instance; Shanahan, after 1 1/2 season he's wristshot/slapshot är down to 12 and deking/stickhandling is down to 10 while his acc/pace are down to 4.

Ok, the acc/pace thing I totally understand as he is old but the stickhandling-things? If that would be the case, Gretzky no longer can even hold a stick without dropping it trying to shoot/pass.

I think these stats should'nt decline no matter how old you get (sure, 1 point or 2 but not 10), the ones that should rapidly decline is the actual acc/speed/condition which DO decline with age. I bet Brett Hull and Al McInnis still would shoot harder than the avarage player in NHL today.

[Minstrel]

Shanahan after 1.5 seasons is 39+ so I'm not sure if he's the best example to decide fixed/not and it also depends upon how you have him set for practice as well, older players take a pounding if you practice them like you can with 19 year olds. That has more to do with, I'd think, his age and being one of the oldest players in the game...

[batdad]

I don't know if this is fixed in the patch but for instance; Shanahan, after 1 1/2 season he's wristshot/slapshot är down to 12 and deking/stickhandling is down to 10 while his acc/pace are down to 4.

Ok, the acc/pace thing I totally understand as he is old but the stickhandling-things? If that would be the case, Gretzky no longer can even hold a stick without dropping it trying to shoot/pass.

I think these stats should'nt decline no matter how old you get (sure, 1 point or 2 but not 10), the ones that should rapidly decline is the actual acc/speed/condition which DO decline with age. I bet Brett Hull and Al McInnis still would shoot harder than the avarage player in NHL today.

IRL the skills that Shanny has declined in in your game are actually the first to go in many cases. Mike Modano has not slowed down at all in speed, but some will tell you his hands are beginning to disappear. The 2nd overall pick the same year as Modano ( Trevor Linden) is actually as fast as he was at 25, his coaches will tell you that. However, hands of frigging stone. Hands first, then legs in most cases. When you hear about players "losing a step" as they age, most of the time the people speaking are familiar with that player and realize the hands, and the coordination to keep those things working well together (legs and arms at same time at full speed handling a puck) are gone.
In general the hands are the reason that you see players who were league leaders in production drop off a bit in their early - mid 30s and you will hear the media/coaches speak of how this player has "really worked on the defensive side of his game" Yzerman under Bowman, Modano under Hitch, Trevor Linden once he left Vancouver (altho always solid defensively he became a defensive specialist), Mike Gartner, Ryan Walter are prime examples of this. Gartner however was still pretty useless in his own end even though in T.O. They tried to say otherwise. Walter never super offensively, but his defensive side was even better when he got to Vancouver from Montreal than in his late 20s because he focused on it so much. Speed still there, hands not.

Sorry for such a long RL spiel, but it definitely means to me that the powers that be at SI have it right. As you age the first things to go are the hands (puckhandling, touch, shot), then the legs (speed, acceleration).

[inSTAALed]

Now the question is....

How does a 36 year old Brind'amour play like he is right now..?

Not only is he solid defensively, he's going through an offensive Renaissance under Peter Laviolette...

I'm not complaining, just thought I would mention it.

[Kris]

Okey I get your point but I still find it very strange that a player would lose his ability to shoot, despite your examples. And if you're right (I'm not saying you're not) why do all players that get old drop in speed/acc on the game (more rapidly than the shooting-thing)? If it's true what you are saying they have it all wrong anyway, but not in the way I think.

On the top of my head, in EHM2005, Iginla, Forsberg and St Louis all had green attributes on Slapshot/Stickhandling/Wristshot but red on acc/pace. This was good I thought, as I still have a hard time understanding why someone should lose their ability to shoot "just like that". Okey I can understand the stickhandling ability but not the actual shot. Take Brett Hull for instance, he has not played in the NHL for 3 (?) seasons, If he should start training now and you put him into the playoffs, don't you think he would be able to hammer in some goals?

In every other sport that I can think off when you're getting older, you are getting slower.
One example from soccer/fotball is Pierre Van Hooijdonk. He is 35+ and doesn't have the technique or speed he once had, but he still have one of the best shots in the world. This should (at least I think) be the same with hockeyplayers that gets old.


Minstriel: Shanahan wasn't on my team so I did not have anything to do with his training.

[batdad]

Shot is different from hands...you are correct on the power part in some circumstances. But shot power, release and accuracy are all different. In his prime Hull had them all. As he aged, lost accuracy then later release time, but not power until right at the end. Then in his last season he admitted he even lost power.
Hull was always slow, so cannot use speed decrease with him over time. Noone thought he could make it as a star in the NHL in the first place(a la Luc Robitaille) because of speed. Both of those are gone cause they lost hands, and were too slow to be useful anywhere else. However, it is the ability to get the puck into proper positioning and release it fast enough to get the same effect the boys once had.

To answer your question, Hull would not score the way he used to. Part of the reason for his retirement last season was he recognized he was not able to get himself into the position (hi slot as we all know) in time to get rid of the shot. He could not get there, and if he did get there, could not get the release to work as well as it had in the past. Al Iafrate recorded the hardest shot ever in Skills Comp, and when he tried again 3 years later (and a number of injuries) he could not come close. Shot goes too. Trust me...it is all I had, and it is gone.

As you age you do get slower, but the hands decline faster. Shot, stickhandling, touch, passing, timing all of that quicker than speed. Alot of times when guys keep playing the offensive role it appears speed could not get them to the right spot. In reality they can get there, just cannot do what they used to with the hands. I know it is the most frustrating thing about what I have lost over the years. I know I am slower, but certainly not as big a decrease, nor as fast a decline as my release,accuracy, timing and power have been.

Speed decline in EHM does come too fast, but to me it is partially because they have to compensate for the fact that rating timing, release, and ability to get to the right spot at the right time is not that simple to do. So down goes speed, and down go other attributes.

And as for Brind'Amour--He is a god. Now in a spot where he can score. He really has not ever had the help he has in Carolina that he has now with Staal, Cole, Whitney et al. But the man can play. He and Selaane just keep going like the energizer bunny.

[Kris]

Good answer batdad but I STILL cannot understand it

[Thundercleese]

Take a look at Tony Amonte of the Flames. He used to be a 30 goal scorer no question, every season you'd get offense from him. Last year, his first with the Flames he only scored 14 goals. As much as the Flames play a defensive style that costs players points in many instances, he no longer has the offensive abillity that he used to. He can still fly, he's an excellent skater, but his offensive 'attributes' have declined. He also still has an excellent shot, as evidenced from the 3 goals he's scored in the last 2 games (2 of those goals were right at goalies who could see it all the way but still couldn't stop it). The problem is he doesn't have the ability to take the puck to those areas like he used to, he can't create space for himself with tools like stickhandling and passing (passing is key to scoring in situations like give and go's, etc).

I offer this as an example of what batdad is talking about. It might not make 'sense' in such a fashion, but it is what it is. This is how players decline. Co-ordination at high speeds is difficult and is the first thing to go with age--it's basically the players losing their reflexes. The speed stays, especially on skates because a good, fast stride has more to do with mechanics than pumping your legs as fast as you can. Same with shooting power, it's about mechanics, about moving your body from one position to the next in such a fashion that the puck leaves the stick. Things like stickhandling and passing and shot accuracy, however, are situationally dictated. The pass you made in the first period will be different based on your position and the positions of other players than it will be in the second period. Same deal with stickhandling, you're not going to make the same deke every time. Both take timing, which begins to falter as people age. Skills like deking, passing (especially in the offensive zone) and shot accuracy require co-ordination, and like I said, it's the first to go.

[Kris]

Your points have reached me and I do understand that it is so, and it's a little bit more logic now, but still I'm not 100% "Ah, of course it is so" hehe

[Xzandrate]

This was specifically addressed by people runing long-term "soak" tests both at SI and by testers and they were tweaked on "both ends" of development, both players developing and old players declining naturally as well

I haven't played terribly long into my game, 2 yrs I think. But is this supposed to address the ridiculous prospects that come along at age like 14? I swear some of the statlines on these kids are better than my 4 liners. At one point, I slowly traded everything I could for 1st round draft picks in 2011, because that's when alot of these bionic wonder children would become available.

[Minstrel]

I can't say for sure but I know Riz spent time focusing on the entire development spectrum during the patch so things should smoother overall while assuring that there are decent players worth of 1st round picks so like all game tweaks it's a balancing act. And when they do their "soak tests" they're like 60-100 years worth I think to really see how things are going and exclude any statistical oddities.