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batdad wrote:Topic: Bertuzzi is an egghead, the Flames trade for Hale is laughable, and the Habs got Michael Leighton. BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
First of all, egghead generally implies intelligence and it seems that Bertuzzi lacks intelligence in the same fashion that fish lack iron claws on their eyeballs.
Second of all, and I'm sure you saw this coming--how is the Hale trade laughable? Giving up a mid-range, late-round pick for a solid, young defenseman who adds size and depth and logs consistent minutes on a defensive-minded team with a winning system seems pretty good to me. The Devils wanted more for Hale but because of their cap problems, they couldn't afford to ask for much more than they got. Who else would the Flames have gone for? Phaneuf, Regehr, Hamrlik and Stuart make an awfully strong top four, and don't forget the reliable Rhett Warrener. I know you've said Regehr, for example, is too slow for the game but the Flames' defensive problems are system-based, not individual. Forwards aren't backchecking because they're looking to score on the rush and leaving their defense hanging. But that's another discussion entirely.
Leighton is pretty funny. I guess that's the Habs folding their hand. A lot of people here in Ottawa are awfully upset that the Sens didn't get Gary Roberts. What's the big deal about a 40-year old guy who hasn't logged a meaningful minute in...darn, half a decade? How about Yanic Perrault? That's GUARANTEED to get the Leafs into the playoffs, and then to the Cup final.
In the end I think Larry Pleau wins the deadline competition. The Blues have ELEVEN picks in the next draft...if their scouting is good, look out.
Pleau did great to acquire that many picks for a rebuilding team, but the proof will be in the pudding if they can turn even a quarter of those picks into future NHLers. The best player drafted by the team in the last ten years was Ladislav Nagy, a seventh round pick who didn't last a season with the big club before being moved to Phoenix.
After Nagy, the team went on to draft mostly depth players. Only Jackman, Backman, Cajanek, McClement, and Stempniak have made the club and stayed there.
YEah I been wondering about the Gary Roberts thing too. Everyone seems to be in love with this guy AGAIN. Even Minty who picked him up in the pool.
Honestly, when was he good the last time? Calgary? InSTAALed may say Carolina. Even in Calgary dude was flanked by the two best Flame forwards ever. Sheesh. Roberts...whatever. May he prove me wrong, but he is worthless to me.
Bah, semantics on the egghead thing. USed around here interchangeably for idiot/smart nerdy guy. I meant idiot clearly. It is the new dork.
Hale:Laughable because I just do not see him making an impact at all in Calgary.
After about 3 games Giordano, AND Zyuzin will be back ahead of him on the depth chart. Hale is seen as OVER RATED in many parts..and Lou heard that, and dealt him instead of another spare part to his squad.
Yes, Calgary's system sucks, so does their coaching. On that I think we agree. However, they could play the system they use fine if they had the right d-men for it. They do not. Warrener is decent, Phaneuf obviously, and then Hamrlik...mr mistake. Brad Stuart? Not sure about him...never seen much that made a big impression as a #3 or #4. The Team Canada tryout-no idea how he got there. After that the rest are all at best highly average speed wise, and at worst Darian Hatcher like. Not something you can play a counter attack system with.
Anyway, that is enough about that. We do agree that the Blues had the number one deadline day, followed closely by Philly, and that the Leighton thing makes no sense whatsoever..so leave it at that.
Nobody is expecting Hale to jump in and take over someone's role, he's depth pure and simple. Hale is young, rugged, and has spent the last three years in the Devils' system of defense. In my opinion, that's ideal to have on your roster right now. You can't overrate a depth guy.
Hamrlik can be erratic in the D-zone, won't deny that, but you can't really call the best +/- on the team "Mr. Mistake". I think Stuart has fit in just fine, and has been a +5 since coming over even after two games with seven goals against.
If it wasn't for this bizarre contrast in home and road performances, the team would be running away with the league. But they're not, and it's very frustrating to watch what seems like a totally different team when they're in someone else's building. But fortunately for you, that Jekyll & Hyde tendency is keeping your team in the division lead.
If it wasn't for this, if it wasn't for that. If it wasn't for the fact that Jan Bulis sucks, the Canucks would already have the cup. THe Road-Home thing is like using referees as an excuse. It is Calgary's coaching and system pure and simple that does not work. Clearly. I have mentioned it upthread several times. As the immortal egghead says "It is what it is".
Hale is a waste of $ for the Flames. Period. As for playing in a d-system being good..Yep, except when you play a system like the one Calgary is doing. He will take a fair bit of time to adjust, and during that time in particular, it will be difficult.
I am yet to see a NJ defensive defenseman go somewhere else and play well in a more offensive system. The only d-man to come out of NJ and succeed somewhere else is Nieds. The rest, usually fall off the map. Why? Cause they can't play a more aggressive game.
Lou's d-men are always overrated because of the help they get from the forwards in their own end. Same with the Calgary d under their old system. They were overrated greatly, and now under the new system...not getting the job done.
Hamrlik is known around the league for his hopeless d-zone play, and stupid plays at stupid times. Brad Stuart, like I said...remains to be seen. I have never seen him do anything exceptional. At all.
Anyway, time to stop flogging a dead horse. Hockey fans are hockey fans. Team fans who don't get a sport drive me nuts when they rant on about how their team is the best, and never give credit where credit is due, and use excuses when the team loses.
When you lose, you lose cause you did not do enough, and the other guys were better. So far, Van and Cal pretty even. But playoffs is the only thing that counts.
I totally disagree with the road-home/referee parallel. Something like the road record gets deep in a player's psyche--a team starts slow on the road and it doesn't get better and it only gets worse and suddenly the players get thinking "gee, it doesn't matter what I do, I just can't do it on the road." As much as managing the players' mentality is part of the coach's job, the man's not a clinical psychologist, there's only so much ANY coach could do....I also think it's too easy to simply blame the divergence on coaching--going from the best in one building to among the worst in all the others isn't exclusively Playfair's responsibility. I wish I had a better answer though....
I think it's tough for Playfair to have come up in the system because he often played the good cop to Sutter's bad cop. Now that he has to lay down the law, those players who were around during Sutter's tenure are probably not really able to see Playfair in that light. I'm not trying to say he's doing a great job, because he's clearly not, but he's not the bane on the team that you make him out to be.
We'll see what happens with Hale. I think that Sutter wants a reliable stay-at-home guy to balance that offensive mentality...and depth. Sutter knows, having dressed BRENNAN EVANS during the Cup run, that you can never have too many defensemen. I think the competition for ice-time has had Zyuzin playing much better lately, Giordano is a work in progress and must understand that his role is not guaranteed and therefore, he also has to compete for minutes. Competition of that nature is not a bad thing at all.
I also think that you're giving Hamrlik less than he deserves this year--he still makes mistakes but he's been awfully smart with the puck when it's right in front of the crease, especially lately. And even if he screws up he's a significant calming influence on Dion Phaneuf, which pays for itself. Stuart has impressed the hell out of me, red-tinted glasses aside. He's physical, he's smart with the puck, he's aggressive, he makes saves (literally)--I was worried that he'd choke in pressure situations but so far he's been very reliable. I was skeptical about the trade but he's proven his worth to me (so has Primeau, that guy's been GREAT).
Big ups to the Canucks organization for the Canucks for Kids telethon tonight. It's the first intermission and they've already raised half a million bucks!
I wish you had a better answer to because the one you give shows the truth about the team you cheer for: pure hopelessness:
If players think like what you are saying then they will be out of a job soon. I have serious issues with that concept. What you are saying is the Flames basically say "I can't do it on the road, so I give up", If what you say is true, this is what they are doing. They don't try to correct the mistakes...they just keep making them and say "oh drat I guess it is because I am on the road." If that is the case, I am even less likely to think the Flames have a good team. Horrible thought about a professional athlete to have. Worse to even have that about an entire team of pro athletes.
The Flames better get over themselves and figure it out or they are absolutely done in the first round, if what you say is true. And may not even make the playoffs. Never met a hockey player who says the shrink saved his game, or made a star even better. The player has to do that, no matter what the shrink says. Shrinks can tell em 1 thing or a zillion..Player got to get it together.
Never said it was not hard for Playfair. Of course it is. However, if it is too difficult..guess he better quit too. " IT is too hard for me" Whining excuse.
And Sutter is right, you can never have too many defensemen, but the quality of the defensemen matters alot too. Heaven help any team in the NHL that loses D-men the way Buffalo did last season. The Flames are no different. If they have to bump up the minutes of any d-man on the team from where they are, with the possible Phaneuf exception...they are in big trouble.
Stuart has had no presssure at all yet. That is what playoffs are for. Hamrlik is a calming influence on Phaneuf, but I am sure you would agree with me that there are at least 100 better defenseman out there, and therefore at least 50 who would make a better #2 d-man to calm Phaneuf. Why does a supposed superstar defenseman need calming anyway? Is that a prelude to pump Dion up if Hamrlik goes down and he chokes down the stretch or in the playoffs? "Well he plays so on the edge, he just went over it, and messed up...he needs someone to keep him calm. If Hammer was here it would have been fine." DION PHANEUF is a grown man and a pro athlete--keep youself calm.
Wayne Primeau is awesome in his role, but he ain't gonna make a big difference since the minutes he gets are taken away from equally talented role players such as Stephane Yelle and Matt Lombardi.
Enough said, you have actually assisted me in proving my point about the Flames. Excuses and poor reffing everywhere. Thanks and good night.
So a person who lets something interfere with their psyche shouldn't be playing hockey? The road woes, that's comparable to a player who hasn't scored in a long time. And when you usually can score but wind up snakebitten, that gets to you no matter who you are. You struggle under the circumstances, you know it, and it affects you. It certainly affected Naslund when he went on his long drought. But once he finally scored, that's why there's the saying "Got that monkey off my back".
I for one do not make excuses for terrible performances on the road and on special teams, those are areas where the Flames are especially weak. I'm not making this a beef with you my man, because I like you and everyone else here I've had the pleasure of interacting with since I signed up. But as much as I think you are well versed and knowledged in the game of hockey, I think you speak a lot more from your opinion of the team itself more than anything else. Chill man.
2. Flames fans in general make the following excuses for their team:
a. reffing sucks
b. road home woes
c. now the psyche problem.
THESE ARE EXCUSES.
Maybe you (THE HUTCH) personally have not made these excuses but if you read back in threads far enough..they have come from every (save 1 who lives in Europe) other Flame fan here.
3. Vancouver comment--Um, not sure..but think there are plenty of points where I have ripped the Nucks, if you read the threads. No way should they lose to Phx, LA, StL,Chi and the like. Cannot really find too many except to say what they did at the deadline moves, Vigneault and Luongo are doing great jobs, and gotta love the Sedins.
Normally I won't make alot of game to game comments because 1 win or 1 loss is not a big deal. It is the situation on the whole, but just for you I will make an exception.
Last nite the whole team was horrid, until after the Doan goal. They seemed to be playing like a bunch of lazy idiots. It was back to the way they were last season. No hustle, not skating, watching Phx play with the puck. No one properly positioned (looking at you Markus and Willie). Then something happened after Doan scored in the 3rd (likely Luongo snapped on them)...Cause they were a different team the rest of the way. All hustle, bang and desire. And they eked out a win cause they were playing a naff team, and had a great goalie, and then realized they better get in gear. Then did.
Now if I ever heard something like that from a Flemmes fan after a loss, never mind a win I would give that guy/girl some credit for being a hockey fan, hockey person who "gets it". Guess what...never have here. NOT ONCE! All I hear is bad reffing, poor road home woes, and now the new one "it is in their heads that they can't win on the road" Only they can get it out...Excuse.
The Hutch...you made a point about the special teams in Calgary not being up to speed. Funny, cause that would get you blasted if you did not have the little Flemme icon in the corner of your posts. Why? Iginla, Conroy Langkow, Huselius, tanguay, Hammer and Phaneuf CAN DO NO WRONG in most Flame circles. They are the greatest at their positions. Give me a break. They suck on the road, they play like they are more talented than they are, and they float half the time. The one time they did not was when they beat the Canucks last month 4-2 or whatever it was. I have yet to see them play a full 60 minnutes hard at home or on the road, with that one exception. The Flames are the new Canucks...Think they are better than they are. Offensive counter attack game incorrectly based on talents of forwards when they do not have d-men who can do the job in that style. Attitude, and excuses for losing. No desire.
The Canucks are the new flames.. when they play hard which they have not latel except for 10 minutes last night: Gritty defense first game, hustle hustle hustle, and the ability to go the extra mile on special teams, with great goaltending to back em up.
4 Nazzy comparison--Yep it was in his head. You have never heard me say Nazzy is always great!!!!!1111!... Why? Cause he ain't. He is soft, he does not give his best all the time, and he can be utterly useless at times. No excuses for him. He gets confidence from result, and not result from confidence. THIS IS BAD! So again a pathetic example brought on by the need to categorize me as a Canucks fan who hates the Flames. Problem is you are wrong, not a Canucks fan, I am a hockey person. (Read my intro thread when I joined and you might get a bit of insight into this)
Please don't use what you said up there about my opinion of what you note as "my team" to justify where you "think" my opinions are coming from, when you really don't know. Yes I have commented about the moves they made at the deadline (because they filled their needs cheaply in comparison to other teams), and that I think in general this season they have played great, and are a much different team than last season. Yes I believe they have a better chance at playoff success than Calgary, but so does San Jose, Anaheim, Detroit, and probably even Minnesota. Why? Because they are better, more talented, more confident teams than Calgary at this point. Not because they are the Canucks and I love Vancouver. Rational, clear headed obvious decision on my part. [/end Clagary rubbish for good, it is getting tiresome]
If you're a coach, batdad, you should know as well as anyone how potentially fragile an athlete's mental state can be, especially regarding such things as superstition--things get stuck in their heads, things wear away at them or torment them psychologically and that, undeniably, affects performance. To say otherwise, to say it's 'an excuse' is garbage. I'm sure you've also noticed how when a player's hot he can score from behind his own goal line by bouncing the puck of six players on the way, when he's cold, he fans on a shot with an open net. When a player/fan blames reffing that's one thing, but if they can't get their heads right, that's COMPLETELY different.
Of course Flames fans are biased. So are Canucks fans. But how is saying "the players can't get their heads straight" saying "they can do no wrong"?? That says, very clearly, that the players are mentally WRONG in some fashion--it's not an 'excuse,' as you are so fond of saying. Does it seem like I'm excusing their off-and-on performance in some way? I don't think it does. If they're mentally feeble, that's a big problem, not an 'excuse.' Same for the road/home thing--how is it an 'excuse?' That doesn't really even make sense. If I say "the Flames would be winning the division if they had a better road record" you would be forced, by logic and evaluation of the facts, to agree with me. The Flames AREN'T better on the road, however, so they're not winning the division. End of story. It's not an excuse for anything, it's simply stating a fact. If I said they were losing on the road because their food is being poisoned or because Harvey the Hound isn't there, THAT would be an excuse. The road thing and the psyche thing aren't excuses at all, they're problems that need to be fixed if the team is going to be successful. Both of those factors are directly in the players' control, so using them for an 'excuse' would be pretty feeble-minded.
At what point have you gotten people disagreeing with you on the Flames' lack of effort? You're exactly right when you say they're not putting in full effort, and I've said myself that the system they're playing is not the max-effort, defense-first lunchpail hockey that Sutter instilled in previous years. Would saying they're playing a bad system be and excuse? However, the Flames have been showing more effort lately, especially in the defensive zone. They're still not fully there (they really started slacking against Phoenix after they built a four-goal lead--if they do that against a team like Nashville it's over) but progress is being made.
Meanwhile, the Flames powerplay has been absolutely exceptional lately. At the beginning of February they were 24th in the league, now they're 8th. The problem is (is THIS an excuse?), one goes up, the other goes down. The power play was stagnant earlier in the year but the Flames were great 5 on 5. Now that the power play's firing on all cylinders, there seems to be a lot less 5 on 5 effort.
If you want this Flames stuff to end, it starts with you. You're the one who called the Hale trade laughable (let's see how the TRUE Mr. Mistake, Brent Sopel, does), you're the one who accuses Flames fans of making excuses and of being blind to their failings (even though, apparently, if we point out a failing it's an excuse because we're blindly faithful). I don't think I've ever seen someone roll in here and say "boy, there sure isn't a better team than the Calgary Flames. Huselius and Tanguay are the two best left-wingers ever and Jarome is the greatest player in hockey history. Dion Phaneuf never makes mistakes and scores a goal every time he shoots, if he doesn't it's because the goalie got lucky."
YOUR bias is showing pretty clearly. Read the posts a little more objectively, we're a lot more critical of our team than you give us credit for.
Granted, Flames fans not as bad as Rangers fans. See post on HF Rangers Board about refereeing..and the breakdown of every minute referee has been on the ice with the Rangers for the entire season. Now that is truly pathetic.
One thing I noticed when the Blue Jackets picked up Boucher from waivers, well at least until Berard is gone for good, is that they now have two players from the hockey hotbed of Woonsocket, Rhode Island USA
I'm enjoying the heated debate here gents, but I thought I'd throw this out there -
Eklund is actually saying something remotely intelligent today (IMO). Check out his blog titled A First, Second, A Prospect and a Player for Future Considerations. I won't get into the details of his post until some others have read it, but what you do you guys think about what he's saying today?
CatchUp wrote:what you do you guys think about what he's saying today?
I'll also add that for some of these teams, these are last ditch effort to win something. Especially ATL, the GM mortgage a lot his future for winning RIGHT NOW. Garth Snow pulled a rabbit of his hat, trying to prove he's not a dope, in fact, Smyth with NYI is IMO a nice trade, (but sooooo bad for the Habs), same again with Preds, who seems to be in their last miles in Countrytown.
Many habs fans complained because Gainey didn't traded Souray or get top notch players. I'm sorry, but oldies like Roberts or Tkachuk, I'm not interesting to drop some future for what? 2-3 months worth of hockey. The price was too high IMO. Keeping the league's second best scoring D-man with the team is the best thing to do.
Leighton?? What a weirdo move. Okay okay, Huet and Danis are injured but, the Bulldogs just loaned Phil Sauvé. Why another GB. Maybe to add more depth for the Calder cup..
It is interesting for sure CatchUp. Wonder who spoon fed it to him?
Anyway, I think his concluding question is interesting, but the allusion to big market teams not being involved is not true. First of all, Detroit did get in to the market (Bert, Calder) just cheaper and more of a gamble than the other players with the exception of Foppa, due to injury or not playing well this season (Calder).
Other traditional big player/market teams...NYR, Colorado, Montreal, Toronto are not in the mix for the Cup this year. So why would they get into the market for this season? Rest assured when they are in the hunt...they will be in there just like the others.
Ekkie is correct that for the first time teams like Atlanta and Nashville see themselves in the hunt...but duh, who does not know that? All it takes is to read the paper and look at standings. And maybe there is a change in the power dynamic, but it is not necessarily due to the Cap or "value of players". It is due to the fact that many teams (Pittsburgh) have been bottom feeders for years, and now their draft picks are starting to play, and are still in the affordable range. They see the chance and they take it, cause they have to. If not, the teams (esp. Nash, Atl and Pit) could be gone from those cities in a hurry. Andthe players will be too, because they could become unaffordable (crosby,malkin,staal etc) Plus the GM job is on the line, at least in Atlanta.
Again, to me Ekkie pointing out the obvious and taking the wrong stance on it, to seem like a genius.
Montreal really should have made a bigger move--they're in playoff position right now and they're sending the message that they don't expect to be there in the future. Why not rent Vesa Toskala or Curtis Joseph? Toronto is only three points back at the time of this post, they could've made more noise too. Wait, I forgot Perrault, the All-Star. Now they're guaranteed to make the playoffs and win the Cup. Either way, I figure if you have a chance, bolster your freakin' roster! Year after year a surprise team finds its way deep into the playoffs, might as well prepare yourself for it, no matter how underserving you may feel you are. Of course, there was much less available than the talking heads would have you believe (because if you believed that they'd be out of a job)--I think it has more to do with a small seller market and a large buyer's market. When the 'big' moves of the deadline involve a 40 year old (29 points), a 36 year old (47 points) and a criminal who's played 7 games this season.
Thundercleese wrote:Montreal really should have made a bigger move--they're in playoff position right now and they're sending the message that they don't expect to be there in the future. Why not rent Vesa Toskala or Curtis Joseph?
Was Toskala even available? His save percentage and GAA are practically identical to Nabokov's, but Toskala has a 24-9 record while Nabby is 14-15 (!). I don't see either of them as the kind of a goalie who could take a team and carry it through the play-offs on their own, so the Sharks better hope that they can do it by committee.
I don't think trading away Craig Rivet can be seen as anything other than surrendering which, as stated earlier, seems odd because they have every chance to make the playoffs. I'd be pretty upset if I were a Habs fan--if it's time to rebuild then deal off the guys who will get you picks and prospects like Souray and Samsonov (why anybody remains even somewhat interested in this guy is beyond me). If the Habs put together the right package they could've lifted Toskala...or Bryzgalov, but I think interest in him has waned since his sub-par season following his excellent couple of playoff rounds. Joseph, for sure, could've been had for pretty cheap, there's no real excuse for that one.
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