Hot Prospects: The official draft/youth/prospects thread

CrockerNHL · Post by **CrockerNHL** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:32 pm

Probably that's a question for you, Canadiens fans. Three years ago, I traded a part of my farm system+high draft picks to get a two-way forward G.Latendresse. Since then, I haven't see anything special from him (in a range of 40 points, 40 PIM per season). Moreover, except stamina (19), he has less than impressive attributes, playing on my energy line with Anze Kopitar and Aaron Rooney. They 'cover' him for his lack of speed.
My expert scouts see him being a key player (1th liner) all the time, but say he's a more offensive-minded version of 'next to nothing' type of player. And that's from the Day 1 he's on my team (3 years). Besides, my assistants are good as well, so I'm not sure it's about training....don't really know what to do with him - to wait more or to trade.
Can anyone know if he eventually will develop to Ryan Smyth's type of player?

Post by **Danny** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:50 pm

Never had him personally, but you can't usually write a player off before he's 23-24. Some people are late bloomers

Did he play in the NHL all the time or did you have him in the AHL for some time ? Was he getting adequate ice time, maybe some PP to get some points and gain some confidence (morale) ?
What practice schedules has he been on ? Are your coaches good with youngsters ?

Just checked his profile, depends on what type of player you expect him to be, but I'd focus on off. skills, shooting, skating, maybe sacrifice a bit on tactics.

Post by **CatchUp** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:25 pm

I usually bring him up slowly. he plays at least one full year in the AHL before he gets the call up. He absolutely can develop into better then a 40 point man. I would suggest trying him on an offensive line and send him to the net. You might also put him on the PP. cheers.

CrockerNHL · Post by **CrockerNHL** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:43 pm

Thanks. Last two years he was in the NHL. My all lines are set to equal (shift=40). PP-rarely, PK - never. Most of my coaches have 17-18 working with youngsters attributes and he was on a training program that contains 3 intensive (shooting, skating, tactical) and 3 medium system (conditioning, def.skills, off. skills). BTW, I noticed his speed and positioning attributes are slightly decreasing in August that can be fixed by extra def. training in September.
Actually, I expect him to be a character guy(like S.Hartnell), with good speed and offensive touch. How can I know if a player maybe a late bloomer?

Post by **Danny** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:52 pm

I'm not sure you can really see it before he's 23-24. Maybe you should've kept him in the AHL for one more year with lots of icetime on a scoring line and on the PP

I guess with a good playmaker and enough time on the PP he'd be an 80 point man even at the age of 22-23 with proper tactics.

CrockerNHL · Post by **CrockerNHL** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:15 pm

I think a player of that caliber and at this stage of his career (after 2 years in NHL) would be wasted in AHL. I'm leaning more towards NHL. Probably I'll put him on a line with R.Schremp and A.Stewart/A.Rooney. But one thing really bothers me, afterall - his attributes. He has great stamina, but nothing more after that. All his other physical, mental and technical attributes are between 10 and 14

Is there is a relation between those tiny numbers and a real potential/ player ability in the future?

Post by **Danny** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:41 pm

Well players with high values in determination and work rate seem to develop better and are potential key players if their technical attributes are good, that is.

Of course he'd be probably wasted in the AHL now, but very few young players have Crosby's, Staal's ability, I'm going to keep Hamill in juniors till he's 19-20 (so 2-3 more years), I've done it with Bobby Ryan and Wilson is already a readymade NHL defenceman but I prefer to give him 25-30 mins per game in the AHL.

He's a potential first liner and that's how he should be used, on a scoring line with tons of PP time. Hence my suggestion that if he isn't good enough yet for this role on your team you could've considered keeping him one more year in the AHL, IN his projected role

CrockerNHL · Post by **CrockerNHL** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:13 am

Probably, keeping him one more year in AHL is not a bad idea.

I have J.Carter, N.Horton, A.Stewart, A.Kopitar, A.Ladd, R.Schremp and G.Brule ahead of him in PP time. So, I think one full year in the AHL without calling him up (he's a waiver eligible already) won't hurt his development.
Thanks to all.

Woody19 · Post by **Woody19** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:14 am

CrockerNHL wrote:Probably, keeping him one more year in AHL is not a bad idea. I have J.Carter, N.Horton, A.Stewart, A.Kopitar, A.Ladd, R.Schremp and G.Brule ahead of him in PP time. So, I think one full year in the AHL without calling him up (he's a waiver eligible already) won't hurt his development.
Thanks to all.

Looks like you did a good job regarding trades. Boy, I wouldn't know how to trade for all this talent ...

Post by **archibalduk** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:27 am

I've renamed this thread so that it's a more general draft/youth/prospect thread

holydogg · Post by **holydogg** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:04 pm

Danny wrote:Never had him personally, but you can't usually write a player off before he's 23-24. Some people are late bloomers

Exactly, for me, it took some years to make B.J. Crombeen a nice 2nd liner and a very usefull all-around player. He blosomed only near 25 (2 AHL seasons and 2 seasons on checking lines)

Kekkonen · Post by **Kekkonen** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:01 pm

Yeah, don't count out players too early. In my current game, I gave Peter Bilodeau (= Mike Blunden, right?) a new life in the NHL after the 'Hawks had horribly mismanaged his early pro career. Being seriously thin on talent, they had brought him to the NHL straight from the juniors when he was 20 -- to play garbage minutes on the 4th line, with no or almost no special teams duty. After a couple of seasons of this, he didn't sign their qualifying offer, but chose to go to Europe instead. He played two seasons with Jokerit Helsinki, putting up good numbers in the first and being just awesome in the second; he also had a good showing in the World Championships on both seasons, and that was where my scouts spotted him.

I got his rights from the Blackhawks for a nominal price (to the best of my memory, a low draft pick + a prospect I probably wouldn't have signed). In his first season back in the NHL, at 25 years of age, he more than tripled his previous season best by scoring 65 points from the second line/2nd PP unit. In addition, he did some penalty killing too. The following season is on its way, but unless he gets hurt or goes into a horrible slump for the final 15 games, he'll get 50 points from a mostly 3rd-line/PK role (he's a RW, and I'm stacked on that position).

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:19 pm

Kekkonen wrote:Yeah, don't count out players too early. In my current game, I gave Peter Bilodeau (= Mike Blunden, right?) a new life in the NHL after the 'Hawks had horribly mismanaged his early pro career. Being seriously thin on talent, they had brought him to the NHL straight from the juniors when he was 20 -- to play garbage minutes on the 4th line, with no or almost no special teams duty. After a couple of seasons of this, he didn't sign their qualifying offer, but chose to go to Europe instead. He played two seasons with Jokerit Helsinki, putting up good numbers in the first and being just awesome in the second; he also had a good showing in the World Championships on both seasons, and that was where my scouts spotted him.

I got his rights from the Blackhawks for a nominal price (to the best of my memory, a low draft pick + a prospect I probably wouldn't have signed). In his first season back in the NHL, at 25 years of age, he more than tripled his previous season best by scoring 65 points from the second line/2nd PP unit. In addition, he did some penalty killing too. The following season is on its way, but unless he gets hurt or goes into a horrible slump for the final 15 games, he'll get 50 points from a mostly 3rd-line/PK role (he's a RW, and I'm stacked on that position).

I'm playing as Chicago right now and I'm in my first season's playoffs. I've had Bilodeau (I'm thinking he must be Blunden) down on the farm all season and he's already looking really good. I might bring him up for the next season. Right now he already looks better than Eaves, who I've had bouncing between the top 3 lines and PP. Maybe I should keep him on the farm for another season? I've also got Bobby Ryan and Marc Staal still in junior. I'll probably have them play at least one season in the AHL too. I've had Patrick Sharp bouncing between the 2nd and 3rd lines and sometimes playing on the PP (some PK too, IIRC) but I'm wondering if I should've kept him down in the AHL for this season too. I'm thinking he might've developed better. I think he's played too many games to send down without passing through waivers now though.

Post by **Danny** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:25 pm

Somewhat related to this, what are the rules for sending down young players to the AHL ?
I drafted Hamill and Turris in 2007, they're unsigned yet and still in junior (beginning of the 2007-2008 season) and I'd like to send them down to my AHL team to have full control over their practice schedules and ice time.
But I'd only sign them now and not in 2-3 years if I was sure I could send them to the AHL. I do believe (just an assumption) that you can only send players down to the AHL when they don't have any junior eligibility left, is that correct ?

Post by **batdad** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:56 pm

If they have Junior League rights and are under 20 years old they have to go to junior. No choice. It is a rule. Well you could waive them...

You are correct on junior eligibility

Systemfel · Post by **Systemfel** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:03 pm

batdad wrote:If they have Junior League rights and are under 20 years old they have to go to junior. No choice. It is a rule. Well you could waive them...

I've found out waiving them doesn't help at all.

Post by **batdad** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:05 pm

Shhh....

So where did Tavares end up?

Post by **Danny** » Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:13 pm

batdad wrote:Shhh....

So where did Tavares end up?

Sneaky

Yeah I've found out you can't even waive Jurcina without him getting claimed so I would never think of waiving Hamill or Turris anyway even if it was possible to send them to the AHL afterwards

CrockerNHL · Post by **CrockerNHL** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:49 am

Woody19 wrote:
CrockerNHL wrote:Probably, keeping him one more year in AHL is not a bad idea. I have J.Carter, N.Horton, A.Stewart, A.Kopitar, A.Ladd, R.Schremp and G.Brule ahead of him in PP time. So, I think one full year in the AHL without calling him up (he's a waiver eligible already) won't hurt his development.
Thanks to all.
Looks like you did a good job regarding trades. Boy, I wouldn't know how to trade for all this talent ...

Thanks. It took almost 4 seasons and more than 350 players both acquired and shipped out. If you like making trades, digging out some talent - only to use'em as a trade bait, stockpiling draft picks for future negotiations, then you also can do it for your team. To put it simply, signing, trading for draft picks, negotiating, signing again, trading, stockpiling again, negotiating...and so on. Maybe that's unmoral, but it works. IMHO, it's all about hardworking and timing. Surprisengly, I got Schremp for J.Tambellini, rights for D.Grebeshkov, 2 scraps (***), 3th and 4th round. However, Ladd was another story and I paid a hefty price for him (can afford it). I shipped out to Canes my previous 1th round (Anton Lander) and 2th round choices (Olow Lindgren, Phil McRae), veteran E.Messier, AHLer D.Bolland, rights to two (****) prospects, three 2th, two 3th and two 5th round picks. I always wanted to build a great team for years to come. And that's how I did it. Probably, there is another way to achieve the same result, with lesser or minimal efforts.

Post by **archibalduk** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:06 pm

Crocker - please could you make sure you don't tick the "disable bbcode" box if you are going to make posts using bbcode tags, such as bold text and quotes. Thank you

CrockerNHL · Post by **CrockerNHL** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:17 pm

The thought struck me that there is an interesting situation with young promising players in a foreseeble future. Let's assume that you have 3-4 first or second rounders every year. Thus, there are 12-16 very good youngsters ready to play in NHL in 4-5 years, not to mention tons of prospects waiting to be signed.
From the other hand, like every normal GM you traded to improve your roster in the way you think it should be. Let's assume, you only use one defensive line (against top players) and 3 mixed ones. With no address to defensive unit, 3 full lines leave us with 15 roster players. In that way, from the very first season you should think about making a room for your youngsters that ready to play. It seems like you should trade very good roster players every year (usually for a middle round pick=nothing) to make a room for prospects or to "let'em rot" in lower leagues. In the real NHL, one or two top prospects or AHLers make the team every year. In 2-3 seasons in EHM, you can face the situation where you have to promote 2-3 youngsters at expense of proven players you don't want to part with! Would you trade S.Hartnell or P.Marleau to make a room for C.Doyle or J.Tavares??? And you are on the horns of a dilemma, because staying in AHL will probably hurt their development! Many could say that's a problem that 'nice to have', but it's tough to make a final decision, especially when you did a great work in building a winner. What are your thoughts on this matter?

Post by **Danny** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:31 pm

I don't think there's a rule of thumb, personally I never look 1 or 2 years ahead but 3-4, when I see that I've already got 2 good young center playing in the NHL and 2 great center prospects I simply don't draft anymore centers or don't trade for center prospects.
I also don't mind replacing all star veterans with young guys, being in 2007 in the game now I already know that I will keep Savard for 2 more years until I replace him with a player that's currently in the AHL or in junior. Of course I might be forced into plan B by injuries or other unexpected incidents of my top center prospect, I'll see what I can do if that problem occurs.

And IF I have an experienced NHLer playing really well, especially when he's on a relatively cheap long term contract I simply trade my prospect that was supposed to be his replacement for high draft picks for the next couple of years.

Something I actually wanted to ask already some time ago, I'm loaded with 2008 picks, I think I've got a combined 8 or 9 for the first 3 rounds, which draft is supposed to be deeper, 2008 or 2009 ? If it's 2009 I might trade some 2008 picks for 2009 ones.

CrockerNHL · Post by **CrockerNHL** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 10:07 am

Being a user, not a programmer

, I cannot tell you clearly which draft is deeper in terms of talent. I know people use editors to realize players' potential, also a consistency, of course, should be taken into account etc. However, it seems like 2009 year is slightly better

than 2008, at least, looking at 1th round choices which are a bit more all-around developed players. IMHO,

Tavares and Vincour

are amazing players for years to come. Other notables to consider: Hedman, Lander, Roubik, Bubnick, Kuchin, Duracka, Pulkkinen. In 2008, I was impressed by the abilities of P.Cormier, C.Doyle and J.Hayes among others. But again, on the whole, I don't think there is so much difference. Depends on your needs. Probably, it's a goog idea to spread your picks evenly to balance your farm system in the future. Otherwise, you can face the situation where you have to promote your current draft choices at expense of proven players you normally don't want to part with! That's my dilemma in 2010/2011 season.

CrockerNHL · Post by **CrockerNHL** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 10:53 pm

I'm on a verge of signing Tomas Vincour to his first NHL contract. For those, who asked about him, here are his attributes in offseason 2010 posted in a local Image Gallery:
Tomas Vincour
http://www.ehmtheblueline.com/forums/al ... pic_id=693

Post by **batdad** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:10 pm

Vincour is clearly a random. In one of my games at 20 he is absolutely brutal. Attributes are very low, and average ratings very low. In another game he is 16 and looks like he is 12 in attributes and ratings. And in another game...he is decent, but nothing approaching what CrockerNHL is showing in his screen shot. In all 3 of the games he looks like at best an AHLer.

Vincour at 20 in 1 of my games

Hot Prospects: The official draft/youth/prospects thread

Hot Prospects: The official draft/youth/prospects thread

T.Vincour