SM-liiga a closed league?

Terva · Post by **Terva** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:35 pm

Is SM-liiga still a closed league like the NHL?

Post by **archibalduk** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:46 pm

Yup. Although Tasku will be able to give you more details.

I think there was some way that teams could get in the league because I think it's happened once or twice. My memory is sketchy, though. I should have paid more attention when I went to the Finnish hockey museum

Post by **Tasku** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:57 pm

Yep, it's closed league, and will stay that way.

Mestis teams are promoted if they reach certain quality of team, finances, ice hall, support, organization etc, etc.

KalPa was promoted for this season. So now it's a closed league of 14 teams.

Terva · Post by **Terva** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:39 pm

Ok. There has been discussions about closing the SEL from time to time. The main reason is that the teams would make efforts in giving more ice time to the younger players. In long terms it wpuld develop swedish hockey. In SEL there are currently 80 foreign players and most of them are really average players.
So my question is. Have the junior hockey in Finland improved after the closing of SM-liiga? Are more juniors given the chance to play with the senior team?
The term of "junior" invovles players up to 20.

Post by **Tasku** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:23 pm

I really can't say. SM-Liiga has been closed for quite some time now. Can't even remember when it was closed, but it's been a while for sure. In 2000 the league was made of 13 teams, instead of earlier 12, so I guess that might've been the year relegations / promotions rules were changed and Pelicans were brought up.

I doubt it has much effect on juniors getting ice time though. Teams want to win no matter what, and that doesn't change even if you close the league. Nobody wants to be last. It's bad for business. Fans don't like it. Although closing the league would help the naff teams get more time to build, and not always be worried of not being at the bottom. So, I guess it might help some of the most promising JRs to find a spot, but it's more a blessing for the teams.

You should have a strickter (sp) foreign player maximum there. That would help JRs for sure.

Terva · Post by **Terva** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:44 pm

What about the quality of mestis then? Has the "second" division improved or gone worse after closing the SM-liiga?
Have there been any discussions in Finland about poot growth of players as in Sweden? 10-15 years ago Sweden was a serious contestant in the Junior champshps but the standard of junior hockey has declined over the years.

Post by **Tasku** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:09 pm

If by "second" division you mean Mestis - most SM-Liiga teams use it as a sort of farm league, like AHL is to the NHL, and the quality of hockey there is considered pretty good standard. But once again I can't be sure if it's better or worse than earlier.

We've had our fair share of media stirring the pot about the level of Finnish hockey, junior and senior, but I personally don't see a decline. SM-Liiga hockey is entertaining to watch, and even Mestis gets it's share of TV coverage, and that's fun to watch too. Maybe it's just the modern youth, who're too lazy to train hard enough, or maybe the smaller hockey countries have taken leaps forward, I don't know, but I doubt it has anything to do with having an open or closed league.

eme · Post by **eme** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:00 pm

Just for the information, there have been talks about re-opening the league for the season 2007-2008. If this happens, there will be qualifiers at the end of the next season.

I dont really think junior hockey has improved dramaticly after the closing of the SM-Liiga. This year tho there are quite a lot of juniors playing in the teams, or atleast there were at the start of the season, but mostly its because of the need of players (departure of players from sm-liiga was bigger than maybe anyone could expect) , not because they are extraordinary gifted players

Post by **Tasku** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:22 pm

There's always been all sorts of talk and rumours on every issue of the league. Open or closed, how many teams, foreign maximum, quality of players, juniors and so on, it's hard to tell what is official and what is just some silly reporter taking it out of context or making his point heard.

Last time I heard something, was a friend of mine told me the SM-Liiga board would prefer to cut the amount of teams to ten, instead of current fourteen. Can't see that happening either (and wouldn't want it to happen!), so I wouldn't be sure if they're going to reopen it any time soon. Not until I see something official on sm-liiga.fi or jatkoaika.

eme · Post by **eme** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:29 pm

Yah well, I read that mestis teams were promised by kalervo kummola that they would arrange qualifiers for the SM-League, and this was confirmed by few of the Mestis Coach. Tho i could be wrong about this.

Post by **Tasku** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:42 pm

Hmm... that might also mean, they intend to have fifteen teams in the league?

eme · Post by **eme** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:57 pm

That i doubt, since there are already conversation about the team being too big at the moment. Majority of the teams would be against it, and would propably do something about it.

Now for some completely different: what would you guys think if they made Scandinavian Hockey League, uniting SM-Liiga and Elitserien to one big hockey league, such as NHL in north america?

Systemfel · Post by **Systemfel** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 3:15 pm

eme wrote:Now for some completely different: what would you guys think if they made Scandinavian Hockey League, uniting SM-Liiga and Elitserien to one big hockey league, such as NHL in north america?

I'd like that!

grazza · Post by **grazza** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:13 pm

yeah could work well. maybe try it like the royal league in football where they still have their domestic leagues seperate but the top teams from the scandinavian leagues play against each other like in group then knockout rounds.
Maybe have 4 groups of 4.

Sweden would get 6 teams, Finland would get 6 teams, Norway 2 teams denmark 2 teams

Top 2 in each group go though to quarter finals which could be one off game with group winners play at home to runners up and The 4 remaing teams could go into a championship weekend at a neutral venue.

I know perhaps norwegian and danish team are not at al the standard of swedish and finnish teams but its nice to have them involved instead of just 2 nations and they may pull a shock if finnish or swedish teams rest a lot of top players.

I think it would be really cool to do this that way you could keep your own nations league and have this as a seperate competition and teams would compete in the league better to try and qualify for this tournament the next season.

Terva · Post by **Terva** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:17 pm

Systemfel wrote:
eme wrote:Now for some completely different: what would you guys think if they made Scandinavian Hockey League, uniting SM-Liiga and Elitserien to one big hockey league, such as NHL in north america?
I'd like that!

I doubt that there would be any interest in sweden. The swedish SEL is 30 years old and almost all of the 12 teams has lots of tradition. Looking only at hockeytradition and not in the size of the areana etc I really canÂ´t pick 6 Swedish teams that should qualify for a scandinavian league. A team like LinkÃ¶ping has no hockey tradition at all but is located in a larger ciyt (in swedish terms) and has a moderna arena as BrynÃ¤s har tons of tradition and is one of the classic teams with a really naff arena and poor finaces.

Then if you compare with the royal league. The interest is good in Noway and Denmark with good attendances at the games. In Sweden itÂ´s good if the fill up half the arena. And for myself there are more rivalry between LHF and other swedish teams than it would be against finnish teams.

A league like the royal league would might work but again, when we had the european league interest was again poor in sweden. I think just that the SEL is filled with traditions and a derby between Leksand and BrynÃ¤s draws more people than a euro-final.

Terva · Post by **Terva** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:21 pm

Tasku wrote:You should have a strickter (sp) foreign player maximum there. That would help JRs for sure.

Are there a foreign player maximum in SM-liiga? It has been discussed in Sweden recent days but it is concidered impossible due to EU laws of free labour.

eme · Post by **eme** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:59 pm

Yes, only 5 foreign players are allowed to play in same match from one team. I guess you could have some more in the team but that wouldnt be too smart. There have been some suggestions though to make this limitation only to affect players outside europe, but this is unlikely to happen.

eme · Post by **eme** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:18 pm

Oh and, that royal league could actually work, fantastic idea! Too bad none of us (?) is known well enough by the league bosses so we could actually make these things go forward.

About my suggestionf of Scandinavian hockey league, maybe they should take something around 20-25 teams instead of all teams or just making it a 12 team league. Though this would mean a lot more expenses for the teams, just because of travelling and so on, but on the otherhand the league might get more attention from sponsors, since the visibility area would be bigger.

Terva · Post by **Terva** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:49 pm

eme wrote:Yes, only 5 foreign players are allowed to play in same match from one team.

But how that possible as Finland is a member of the EU? You have the free mobility of labour in the EU and forbidding players to work (play) is discrimination.

Post by **archibalduk** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:26 am

I'm assuming that it's only five non-EU players? Even if it is five non-Finns then it can still be exceptions under EC law. It's been two years since I've studied EC law

eme · Post by **eme** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 11:50 am

I dont know how, but it's like that. You can only dress up to 5 non-finnish players for one match. I dont know how the EC law works, so i cant really comment on that.

Terva · Post by **Terva** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:49 pm

What about the salaries in SM-liiga?
Vladimir Orzsagh haz a so called "artist contract". ItÂ´s a contract over six months and has a lower tax rate than for employes who would stay for more than six months every year. So Orzsagh gets about 170 000 Euro for six months in LuleÃ¥. We also have Lubos Bartecko on six month contract and he I guess that he earns something like that.

Usually the best players like JÃ¶rgen JÃ¶nsson fÃ¶r instance makes about 22 000 Euro/month.

Post by **Tasku** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:48 am

The Finnish 5 player foreign max is not a "law" set by the league, but a voluntary agreement made by the teams.

I doubt any of them dare brake it, or they'll have (media) hell to pay.

Terva · Post by **Terva** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:38 pm

Tasku wrote:The Finnish 5 player foreign max is not a "law" set by the league, but a voluntary agreement made by the teams.

I doubt any of them dare brake it, or they'll have (media) hell to pay.

But then it is a cartel and that is illegal, not only by EU-law but IÂ´m sure that itÂ´s forbidden in every single country with free market.

Post by **archibalduk** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:57 pm

I don't think that would class as a cartel although my knowledge of EC competition law is somewhat sketchy.

It is possible to place limitations on the free movement of workers under to certain circumstances. Like I said, it's been two years since I've studied it, but I do remember a case where an Irish University was allowed to discriminate against non-Gaelic speakers in order to preserve a Gaelic element in the University. A similar argument could be put on the limitation of non-Finns; a limitation is needed to ensure the development of Finnish youths and to ensure a Finnish element in the teams.