Official thread: The Future of EHM

grazza · Post by **grazza** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:56 pm

bruins72 wrote: The TBL users from the United States aren't really indicative of the average US consumer, even amongst hockey fans. Unfortunately, most people in the US would rather play an arcade style hockey game like the type you find on game consoles. It seems that most people don't have the patience not the attention span to play a game like EHM.

I can't speak for Canada because I don't really know what it's like up there.

How many games like EHM have came out over there. Yes there may be the odd manager game but even they have the 3D arcade style to them. EHM is something different and fresh but people do not know about it. That said I do feel that Canada would be the best place to start it off. The thing about USA is that it is practically a continent. There is no national sport different areas like particular sports. EHM will always be a niche product though as in most places ice hockey is a minority sport.

I think it is very important though that the torch keeps burning and the Blue line has done that excellently. Look at home many new members have joined up even well after the game stopped being made. These guys just happened to stuble accross it and that seems to be the issue most people here either stumbled upon it, or were playing the freeware version or already customers of SI on their fm/cm games.

Hockey is very much about stats and the north americans are well into their stats from what media coverage I see. It is a niche market and games like this really are not for kids but perhaps teenagers and adults. There is a big obstacle in that nothing like EHM has been done before in terms of how detailed and accurate it was so really this niche product category has little track record which makes it difficult for those investing in it to take a risk and put some serious promotion behind it. It is a catch 22 in that you invests a lot but there is a big risk, if you invest just a little it doesn't get a fair chance.

The gaming market is starting to slowly (not as fast as I would like) wise up to the big companies churning out yearly sequels with little change. I really think that if EHM was released every few years it would do better. More people would buy it if they knew they could just update it each season perhaps say for a minor fee.

bruins72 · Post by **bruins72** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:06 pm

Computer games in general don't sell that well over here compared to console games. That is really the big rage in the US. Everyone plays games on the PS3, Wii, or XBox360 (except for me). Computer games are mostly played by the hardcore gamer types that gravitate towards 1st person shooters and RTS games. The only real simulation management type games that do well are The Sims and some of it's related titles. I really don't see an ice hockey management game changing that, especially since most people can't be bothered with hockey itself. Plus, EA's NFL Coach or whatever it was called didn't really set the charts on fire and football is the #1 sport here.

That being said, I would love to see a new version of EHM (or another hockey management sim) made and to see them really get it out there and find their niche market.

Post by **batdad** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:13 pm

Hockey is very much about stats

In EHM and manager games..yes it is.

In real life...not at all. Not even close. Totally going in an offtopic direction here, but I can't let that go.

Of any sport in the world hockey is the LEAST about stats. In some ways, this is why a hockey manager game may not work for the sport.

There are so many intangibles in the game...so many unscripted plays, so much freedom on the ice vs any other sport (soccer, basketball, football, baseball, autoracing, lacrosse)...designed plays are few and far between. Cannnot measure creativity, physical play, positional play with stats. See the idea here? this is why it is soooooo hard to do a manager game that works for the hockey fan.

No matter what, the crazy creativity of a guy like Robbie Schremp cannot be put into a manager game. Yes it sort of can in an arcade style.

Hockey is just the most unpredictable of any major sport We know what a basketball team is going to do, we know the plays of football teams, we know the plays of baseball teams, we know the plays of soccer coaches....they are designed and thus the game becomes more statistically measureable. Did he make that inbound pass off the timeout for the 3 pointer set up? was that a good corner kick? Was that the time for play action? you can just measure so many more things in the other sports because you know what is coming.

In hockey...you rarely know what is coming. Every pp is different, every pk is different, every player is different.

The best goalies on the worst teams can have the WORST stats. The best scorer on the most defensive team is hamstrung and cannot do what he is used to (Naslund)

THE WORST defenseman on the BEST team can have a better plus minus than perhaps the BEST defenseman in the entire league.

You cannot measure the value of a hockey player by just Goals, assists, points, plus minus, penalty minutes alone. Same for goalies and average and save percentage. You just cannot.

Willie Mitchell will never have the best stats, much like Rod Langway never did. But if you ask anyone in the NorthWest division right now who they hate playing against amongst defencemen...the majority will say Willie Mitchell. Same as it used to be Rod Langway.

Ryan Kesler...20 goals, not a big star. But ask guys who they hate playing against...he is almost always listed in the top 10. Iginla gives him as the answer every single time.

I know using Canucks here, but to prove the point...they missed the darn playoffs. Luongo's numbers were not good, Mitchell's numbers not good...but in particular with Roberto is anyone going to say he is not better than most of the goalies left in the playoffs? Nope.

Back on track: IN EHM stats matter way more than they do in real life. The top teams have the top scorers, top goalies, top plus minus guys...in real life not nearly the case. Not at all.

V4ND3RP00L · Post by **V4ND3RP00L** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:33 am

I have to agree that batdad has said it all in his most recent post. The EHM game just can't match what hockey is like in the fans view or on the ice at that either.

I know from playing and watching the sport for the last 15 years.

Post by **archibalduk** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:23 am

A very good point, Batdad. I'd never thought about that. I know I'm making the thread go off topic by discussing this further but I think it's darn interesting and is part of the broader picture regarding EHM's future, regardless of how tenuous the link between the two.

Thinking of the English Premier League (soccer), we always see the same teams at the top and roughly the same teams at the bottom. Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea always have and, for the forseeable future, always will finish top of the Premier League. Liverpool are always just behind them. Taking another sport; the NFL. Although I don't know that much about it, it seems that the New England Pats very regularly make it to the Super Bowl.

In the NHL, on the other hand, we see a wide range of teams winning and losing. Teams may be consistent for a few seasons but things quickly change. Take the Ducks, they've been playing well for the past few seasons. But cast your mind back further and they we struggling at the bottom of the Pacific Division. It's a similar story for the Rangers. Who'd have thought Tampa Bay would have won a few years back? As much as I don't like the Lightning, it was great to see a team that traditionally struggles make it through the marathon of the Playoffs and win. The Leafs have traditionally gone fairly far in the Playoffs but they haven't been seen there for years. I love how unpredictable this sport can be!

It must make creating a hockey manager a much bigger task than, say a soccer management game.

bigargon · Post by **bigargon** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:17 am

i agree with much that was said... but all things considered..EHM is an excellent management game.
my only regret is that they didn't make it more mod-able ....like OOTP baseball... if you could change the league structure...it would extend this game life for a long time.

I agree with batdad.... management games are not so popular.
they require thinking ...which Americans in particular are loath to do these day

I hope a solution can be found. maybe someone very computer savvy can find a way to edit the code or create a tool to edit the hardcoded league and team structures .

Post by **archibalduk** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:14 pm

bigargon wrote:I hope a solution can be found. maybe someone very computer savvy can find a way to edit the code or create a tool to edit the hardcoded league and team structures .

Sadly, decompiling the code (which, I believe, is what you need to do to modify the code) is illegal.

Post by **B. Stinson** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:01 pm

Here's an interesting thought that came to me...

If EHM came back as a Riz-solo-project, anyone think we'll see a 2D match engine? Personally, I would think that would be quite complicated for one person to tackle... yet on the other hand, Riz already has the knowledge from the one he created in 2007.

Kind of leaves me wondering how this would play out for a solo-project...?

Francois Tremblay · Post by **Francois Tremblay** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:42 pm

As long as you guys all give him a thousand dollars each, he can spend a whole year doing it...

Post by **vilifyingforce** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:38 pm

I was actually talking (emailing) Riz a couple of weeks ago about the rfa bug, but, in our talk he said the last thing they were working on for ehm before it got canned was a completely customizable game very much like ootp.

Post by **archibalduk** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:54 pm

dybbuk wrote:I was actually talking (emailing) Riz a couple of weeks ago about the rfa bug, but, in our talk he said the last thing they were working on for ehm before it got canned was a completely customizable game very much like ootp.

Ah now that just puts salt in the wound!

Imagine how much we could customise and update the game if it were like OOTP

Post by **B. Stinson** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:07 am

archibalduk wrote:
dybbuk wrote:I was actually talking (emailing) Riz a couple of weeks ago about the rfa bug, but, in our talk he said the last thing they were working on for ehm before it got canned was a completely customizable game very much like ootp.
Ah now that just puts salt in the wound! Imagine how much we could customise and update the game if it were like OOTP

It really does put salt in the wound. I've been dying to see that level of customisation in a hockey game. It's a shame to see how close we came to actually having it.

gibson41 · Post by **gibson41** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:46 am

dybbuk wrote:I was actually talking (emailing) Riz a couple of weeks ago about the rfa bug, but, in our talk he said the last thing they were working on for ehm before it got canned was a completely customizable game very much like ootp.

Oh, now it hurts even more

grazza · Post by **grazza** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:30 pm

On the flip side there was a start made to it so perhaps Riz would not need to start from scratch or at the very least he could replicate was done so far in a way that doesn't infringe any licence issues etc. He is working on FM Live. I think there is quite a lot of customisation in that so that could prove to be a valuable experience.

As for FM live its an MMO so how will the staff base change when the initial game is done. Yes of course they will need staff to maintain the game and make the occasional add on but surely not as much as the initial production team.

Kekkonen · Post by **Kekkonen** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:37 am

grazza wrote:I think the best approach would be to bring a version of the game every few years and release yearly updates.

Looking at OOTP it has kept going after going independent which is encouraging. Looking at the OOTP forums on the SI site they were very quiet compared to NHL EHM. So certaintly EHM could prosper as an independent game.

OOTP has its own forums, which are pretty active. They are where the majority of OOTP-related discussion was even when SI had OOTP.

Post by **B. Stinson** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:09 pm

grazza wrote:On the flip side there was a start made to it so perhaps Riz would not need to start from scratch or at the very least he could replicate was done so far in a way that doesn't infringe any licence issues etc. He is working on FM Live. I think there is quite a lot of customisation in that so that could prove to be a valuable experience.

As for FM live its an MMO so how will the staff base change when the initial game is done. Yes of course they will need staff to maintain the game and make the occasional add on but surely not as much as the initial production team.

I could be remembering incorrectly, but I believe Riz was put on FM, not FM Live. Graeme was the one put on FM Live.

newsguyone · Post by **newsguyone** » Mon May 12, 2008 4:46 am

Shadd666 wrote:PR? Not PR? I don't know... All i know for sure is that the various EHM communities are still alive and begging for something new, while still playing a lot of EHM07. There has been no EHM08... There will (probably) not be an EHM09, which should have been out in less than 6 months... And the communities are still alive. So there's some potential for a new hockey management game, being a new EHM or something new made by Riz. And we can be sure Riz really wants to make a new EHM/whatever-the-name-would-be.

So there's a real will to make it and a real community to support it. That's 2 really good points, and a really solid base to see something arise... someday... Hopefully not too far away from now

[marq=down]

If and when it comes out, it must be online capable for a 30GM league.

I am involved in 3 EHM 05 leagues. They've stood the test of time.

Remake 07 with fully-online capabilities, update the rosters ... and let it fly.
Also, a feature that would allow the NHL GM more control of the AHL team would be sweet!

Post by **batdad** » Mon May 12, 2008 5:28 am

Although I agree that the game would be awesome if it could be 30GM online. I think that the community and the lack of online here at TBL...and the discussions and stuff that is going on at this site right now proves that online is not necessarily the way this game survives newsguyone.

I would love to have the capabilities you discuss. But it does not, and TBL is still going crazy strong. In fact there is more posting here now and more people here now than there was back before EHM 2007 was announced as the final EHM. And we don't do any online stuff here. Some guys are involved in online both with 2005 and 2007, but most of the stuff we do is through mods and challenges and create a player stuff.

And TBL is still going strong...so I dunno.

sjsharkz · Post by **sjsharkz** » Mon May 12, 2008 7:59 am

I would love a new EHM game, but at this present time EHM 07 is just fine:) although it's "out of date" you can still customize it with the editor to suit you, and change anything you like...I think thats pretty amazing.

Also about these forums, I probably wouldn't be so into EHM if it wasn't for this site, and the people on this site, hearing stories and tips and all the kind of stuff just drives me to play EHM more and enjoy it alot more, so a big thankyou to everyone involved in the site, and all the users on here.

Post by **Shadd666** » Mon May 12, 2008 11:46 am

Nice comments about the site, sjsharkz

Always appreciated. And nice to see you didn't forget the most important people: the users

This site would be useless if no-one was coming.

Heh, EHM brings hockey fans together, and TBL brings hockey fans to EHM

(oh wait, isn't it another ads?

)

Back on topic now... EHM07 online play is pretty weak (at least that's what i've always heard... never played online), but it was a clean decision: first of all, devellop the game correctly, with all the new features (2D engine, fantasy draft, etc). Then tweak it to improve it (nothing less than 4 patches!). Then i think there would have been a new version to improve those things, especially the 2D engine, before they started to really devellop the online play.

A bit sad for the online gamers, who may feel a bit sacrificed, but most of the EHM gamers just don't play online, so the online play is/was clearly not a priority. It was on the to-do list though. Probably not for EHM08 (that never came), but more likely for an EHM09 (that is unlikely to come in September) or an EHM10 (few chances here, but who knows...).

Now it's hard to tell if there will be any nice online capabilities in a future EHM version. Mainly because we don't know if there will be a new EHM ever. Then we don't know how it will be made, being a SI product or an independant Riz product made on free time, or anything else. If it's a SI product, i think the online play may not be too far on the to-do list... maybe one or two versions ahead. If it's another kind of product, it might take a longer time...

Well, as we say in those cases: wait and see!

Sbufkle · Post by **Sbufkle** » Mon May 12, 2008 1:32 pm

In the end dollars dictate new releases, the development of a new or even improved engine must be weighed against if their is a market for the game. So right now SI obviously feels its not economicly feasible. So as far as what the community wants with EHM really dictates its future.

Right now, my own personal feeling is that we shouldn’t hold our breath for something new, and we should clearly focus on what can be done with current engine.

Here are comments off the top of my head:

ONLINE PLAY VS SINGLE PLAYER

As it is with most games where you have an option like this (Or with some games single player vs multiplayer online) if you are on one side you think things are better with the game with the other. As someone who enjoys only playing at home in my own sims by myself, I feel only updates and mods are needed to keep it alive. But to the online player apparently there are shortcomings…

So…

What are online issues with EHM?

FUTURE OF CURRENT VERSION OF EHM

(Theres going to be a lot of repeating of things I have said before!

)I feel that the current version of EHM just needs modders to thrive. And to get more modders modding well have to make guides. I will this week begin a new guide on some basic modding.

Yes, I think its as easy as that! And if the EHM pregame editor gets more dynamic then modding is easier.

Im not worried about the future of EHM because provided people want a future, there will be one.

Post by **Shadd666** » Tue May 13, 2008 12:40 am

Sbufkle wrote:In the end dollars dictate new releases, the development of a new or even improved engine must be weighed against if their is a market for the game.

Sometimes it's €uros, not Dollar$. Other than that, you get the point

Sad but true.

It doesn't 100% dictates the way you have to follow though. Else, there would be no innovation at all. But it has a huge impact on how things are made, and clearly kills a big part of the creativity of some guys in every domain. Will you take the risk to innovate and probably see your creation die after a short time? Or will you follow what is said to be good and make sure it will work? When your carreer is on the line, it's a really tough choice, and it's hard to blame those who play it safe.

Just look at EHM... Making a hockey simulation game is pretty much of a gamble! It's way more safe to make a FPS, a MMORPG, or a soccer arcade game. And in the end, we all now how EHM ended. Well, it's not really totally ended, but it has been stroke badly.

Sbufkle wrote:Right now, my own personal feeling is that we shouldn’t hold our breath for something new, and we should clearly focus on what can be done with current engine.

I agree. Plus, we don't really have the choice. As there's no official devellopement for the game, it's up to us to do what we can. And there are several projects going this way.

Then, of course, we all hope about something fresh in the EHM series. But it won't come before a while. Or it will maybe never come, we can't know. So during this time, it's up to us to keep things alive

newsguyone · Post by **newsguyone** » Fri May 30, 2008 12:35 am

batdad wrote:Although I agree that the game would be awesome if it could be 30GM online. I think that the community and the lack of online here at TBL...and the discussions and stuff that is going on at this site right now proves that online is not necessarily the way this game survives newsguyone.

I would love to have the capabilities you discuss. But it does not, and TBL is still going crazy strong. In fact there is more posting here now and more people here now than there was back before EHM 2007 was announced as the final EHM. And we don't do any online stuff here. Some guys are involved in online both with 2005 and 2007, but most of the stuff we do is through mods and challenges and create a player stuff.

And TBL is still going strong...so I dunno.

TBL is one of the few EHM communities still going strong.

Think about how much stronger this game would be with the ability to have online leagues.

I've barely played EHM 07. Once you play online, and you play against GENUINE INTELLIGENCE, instead of AI, you can't go back. It's just too boring.

I was part on a 16-team online 07 league, but it's incomplete.

Check out our league website
http://s4.zetaboards.com/SSHL/index/

If 07 would have had online features, I bet there would be 100s of leagues like ours.

In today's age, if you don't have full online capabilities, you don't have a game.

newsguyone · Post by **newsguyone** » Fri May 30, 2008 12:43 am

Shadd666 wrote:Nice comments about the site, sjsharkz Always appreciated. And nice to see you didn't forget the most important people: the users This site would be useless if no-one was coming.

Heh, EHM brings hockey fans together, and TBL brings hockey fans to EHM (oh wait, isn't it another ads? )

Back on topic now... EHM07 online play is pretty weak (at least that's what i've always heard... never played online),

It is so weak, they should have totally eliminated it. What remains is pitiful.

but it was a clean decision: first of all, devellop the game correctly, with all the new features (2D engine, fantasy draft, etc). Then tweak it to improve it (nothing less than 4 patches!). Then i think there would have been a new version to improve those things, especially the 2D engine, before they started to really devellop the online play.

It was a clean cut to the artery is what it was.

A bit sad for the online gamers, who may feel a bit sacrificed,

A bit?
When you get 20 people to buy the game, and they are frothing at the mouth to start a new league, and then we all buy it and discover that online is gone ... it;s more than a "bit" sad.

The fact that they sacrificed online was a clear decision that it was done as a franchise.
You don't go backwards in online capabilities, if you are serious about creating a marketable video game.

but most of the EHM gamers just don't play online, so the online play is/was clearly not a priority. It was on the to-do list though. Probably not for EHM08 (that never came), but more likely for an EHM09 (that is unlikely to come in September) or an EHM10 (few chances here, but who knows...).

It won't sell without it.

Now it's hard to tell if there will be any nice online capabilities in a future EHM version. Mainly because we don't know if there will be a new EHM ever. Then we don't know how it will be made, being a SI product or an independant Riz product made on free time, or anything else. If it's a SI product, i think the online play may not be too far on the to-do list... maybe one or two versions ahead. If it's another kind of product, it might take a longer time...

Well, as we say in those cases: wait and see!

If the idea is to sell a product and make money, interactivity is a MUST.

There is no arguing that.

Gaming isn't about picking lint out of your bellybutton. It's about competing against opponents all over the world.

My league has GMs from Canada, the US, Slovakia, Norway, Finland, Sweden, France and Scotland.

EHM is an international game. Hockey is an international game.

Denying the importance of interactivity to this game, in this day and age, is like denying the importance of sunlight to the earth.

Post by **batdad** » Fri May 30, 2008 12:48 am

You may not have mentioned it before newsguyone, but this has been beat to death over and over.

Everyone who has read here for two years, and anyone who has read at SI knows how you feel. We get that you are upset about the online...

but at this point we are tired of hearing about it. The rest of us have moved on...lets not get back into this endless silliness again.

Thanks